Axis Mundi X discussion

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Look upon the face of the enemy

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message 1: by Paul (new)

Paul Bryant http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/...

Sorry to inflict this on you all on a Monday morning but I think we all should be aware of what we are fighting against : an entire culture. Here's the irony - this murdering father thinks that Western society is degenerate!


message 2: by Lisa (new)

Lisa | 129 comments This is our own doing. Iraq might have been a disturbing dictatorship with a miserable human rights record, but at least it was stable and secular under Hussein. By taking him down, we've simply created another radical fundamentalist Islamist theocracy that isn't any less disturbing, and the human rights record will only go downhill.

I read an article a couple of days ago about musicians who play classical Iraqi secular music. They've both had their instruments, made by the best maker of the guitar-like instrument (think middle-eastern Stradivarius) destroyed. One moved to the U.S., and the other has to hide in back rooms to play the Iraqi equivalent of Schubert.

The important part to remember is that THIS WASN'T THE CULTURE IN IRAQ until we walked in and destroyed the prevailing culture. And the government. With such a vacuum, is it any surprise the fundies have started running things? In chaos and fear, the fundies offer sure answers.


message 3: by Paul (new)

Paul Bryant Agreed, but still ... plenty of daughters in the west do things which horrify their fathers but they don't end up being murdered with the full participation of the brothers and a chorus of approval from the local police. We opened Pandora's Box in Iraq all right, but we didn't create the vileness which has spewed forth from it. They did!


message 4: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments That's right King...to people like that, it's always going to be our fault. Stable, secular society? LOL....tell that to the Shia. Lisa, that was one of the biggest, steaming piles of moral equivalence BS I've seen to date. "...destroyed the prevailng culture" Yeah, like we did Nazi Germany.....boo hoo. That "society" you talk about Lisa was a Sunni thugocracy, ran by and for the agrandisement of the Al-Tikriti tribe...nothing more.


message 5: by Paul (new)

Paul Bryant Donna - "Islam doesn't have a monopoly on mysogyny" - no - see my constant carping about American Psycho all over this site - but it does appear to have a monopoly on this particular type of misogyny. And it seems to be so common in that society, not a freakish aberration like the Austrian cellar family horror. As for using this wretched case as fodder for an unworthy debate, Axis Mundi is the forum to express pretty much anything we care to, and I wished to emit a screech of horror. If a culture normalises "honour" murders like this, that culture is my enemy. If everyone in that society is of a different race than me, then this makes me extremely uncomfortable. Are you saying we should remain silent? Maybe we should stop reporting these outrages?


message 6: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
This is exactly the kind of thing that I have been on about in other threads. Islam exhibits a particular kind of religious fanaticism that appears to be all-pervasive. And one of it's main characteristics seems to be misogyny. Things like this have been going on for hundreds of years (thousands of years?) inside Islam... and this religion is growing by leaps and bounds all over the globe.

Resist or Serve, Fight or Die.


message 7: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments naaaaa, Donna ; p.....just had to give myself a time-out - I been extra cranky of late. Besides, Paul said what I was going to...he just did it more better.


message 8: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments What Char said...that's pretty much it.


message 9: by Lisa (new)

Lisa | 129 comments I'm just saying that there used to be some protection in place in Iraq that prevented that kind of thing. Sure, it was a thugocracy, but it was a secular one that protected women from horrors like this, and even let them wear pants.


message 10: by brian (new)

brian   fucking genius that Lemmy's commenting on this thread. genius.


message 11: by brian (last edited May 12, 2008 10:39AM) (new)

brian   protections in place?

protection against what?

genocide?

er, no... that happened.

rape rooms?

er, no... those existed.

torture?

er, no... that was commonplace.

all of the above against homosexuals, jews, kurds, 'enemies of the state'?

er, no... that was the whole point.

and, yes, the women wore pants... that is, until saddam, his rapist sons, and anyone else in power decided to tear them off, rape the woman (usually underage virgins) who wore them, toss the soiled goods (the women, not the pants) back into the street to be stoned for dishonoring their families.

we have much blood on our hands and have much to answer for... that's a given. but please don't conflate us with saddam and/or believe michael moore's kite-flying myth that iraq was a decent place to hang before we fucked shit up.


message 12: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Come on over, Donna. Sardine?

"....don't forget he made the trains run on time too!"


message 13: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
also, Hitler loved dogs and children. And was a vegetarian.

Ooops... we're talking about Sadman.


message 14: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
If only Falwell *would* strap a bomb to his fat, meat-eating gut... then trip and fall and blow himself up in the safety of his own home. Or better yet, fall on Pat Robertson.

"[The E.R.A.] is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

Pat Robertson, The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 1993



message 15: by Gary (new)

Gary (mrthomson) I've heard that it is somewhat misleading to call Hitler a vegetarian.

Vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler


message 16: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
How about I call him your mom instead?


message 17: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments I can it's easy....hey look....there's some koranimals stoning a woman to death. There.


message 18: by Lorena (new)

Lorena (lorenalilian) ... "And then I explain to him how naive we were, that the world did know and remained silent. And that is why I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever humans beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppresor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. And yes, sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place -must at that moment- become the center of the universe."

Elie Wiesel, in his acceptance speech for the Peace Nobel Price.

The saddest thing he was talking about the Holocaust, and here we are so many years later, witnessing the birth and grouth of another force of evil.


message 19: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
good quote Lorena.


message 20: by Lorena (new)

Lorena (lorenalilian) ;o)


message 21: by Lisa (new)

Lisa | 129 comments In metaphorical terms, I can compare Iraq to mental health therapy. It's utterly irresponsible for a therapist to dismantle someone's maladaptive defenses and coping mechanisms until newer, healthier ones have been developed.

I never said the old Iraq wasn't maladaptive. But once all the US did was dismantle, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that what rushed in to fill the vacuum was civil war and violent religious extremism. The place hasn't had a real, functioning government since 'Mission Accomplished'. Of course religious extremism steps in. When none of the other laws are functioning, I can see how Sharia might start to look like the answer. And before anyone jumps on me about it, I am NOT praising Sharia as a way to bring order to a society in chaos. I just can see how it could take hold there right now.


message 22: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Rushed in is correct. First it was AQI, which is now on it's way to defeat. Now, it's Iran and Hezbollah. If the Maliki Govt continues to prevail against Tater and his Mahdi Army, it will have defeated extremist forces from both the Sunni and Shia camps, which will not go unnoticed by the population.


message 23: by Meels (new)

Meels (amelia) I'm just saying that there used to be some protection in place in Iraq that prevented that kind of thing. Sure, it was a thugocracy, but it was a secular one that protected women from horrors like this, and even let them wear pants.

Lisa, are you serious? Women were raped and murderd/beheaded all the time under the old regime...only for sport and sadistic pleasure! It was Sadam and his son's form of entertainment!! How is that better than "honor killings"? They're both deplorable, but neither is "better" than the other. I'm not defending Bush, or the war, or the good/evil we have done by going into Iraq. I just can't believe that you found the old regime a place that "protected women"!


message 24: by Varmint (new)

Varmint lorena,

elie weisel was essentially paraphrasing a talk george orwell gave in 1940 call pacifists inherently pro fascist. still an important idea that needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

watched a memorial for rachel corrie on c-span yesterday.those people are depressing.


message 25: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments ahhhhh Rachel Corrie...aka St. Pancake.


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