The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich discussion


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rise n fall

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message 1: by abhay (last edited Aug 25, 2016 11:01AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

abhay singh this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it..
fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by the german way of fighting........


Steve Simply the most interesting one volume history of Germany during the war. A must read for anyone interested in WWII


Karen I read this many years ago and found it very informative. If you like WWII history your will definitely like this book.


Michael Cargill Cargill Amazing read this. I remember when it first arrived through the post I couldn't believe how thick it was!


R. Michael Duttera Particularly fascinating is the story of how the Nazis managed to get into power. If the economy gets mismanaged bad enough ANYTHING can happen! Even here. That's the lesson I came away with. Well worth reading.


C.E. Crowder I always recommend reading John Toland's "The Rising Sun" together with this one, to get the full Japanese story that completes the Axis picture.


JulieLaLa I agree! This book is insightful and informative - not "dry" like some history books can be. I also thought that since it was written by a journalist who was in Germany during the time of Hitler's rise to power, it was unbiased. But, that was a time in history when journalists were supposed to be impartial. Great book!


message 8: by Michael (last edited Apr 02, 2012 02:31AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Michael Flanagan For me it is the best book on the Third Reich.


Vilija I found the first 300 pages or so, the stuff that's all about politics, pretty dry. It was hard going for me. Once Hitler started his land territory-based game of poker, and the focus switched to military strategy, it read much easier for me! Overall, I thought it was very well done.


Steve Written in the 60's but still relevant today. I really enjoyed the book including the political aspects.


Letitia Michael wrote: "For me it is the best book on the Third Reich."
It is for me too, but it is the only WW Two I have read.

Have you read any others that you think are worthwhile to read?


Martha THis book along with the "Berlin Diary" are so informative of the rise of National Socialism. I read both books in 1970 while we were living in Germany. I tried to discuss the books with some Germans but all they said was we had it so hard "not a potato in the land"


Letitia Isn't interesting how one cultural sees a situation completely differently than another!


message 14: by Feliks (last edited Jan 17, 2013 07:51AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Feliks Steve wrote: "Written in the 60's but still relevant today. I really enjoyed the book including the political aspects."

Uh, of course its still friggin' relevant. Lots of things are. Everything important in life & culture stays relevant no matter what decade it is. Superficial phenomenon is what changes.


Feliks abhay wrote: "this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it..
fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by the german way ..."


I would say its not dry; but as it is so rich with detail and because it does take its time illuminating every shadow; it is slow going. Lots of footnotes and (in my opinion) you have to read footnotes as you go along rather than go back later.

I'm very interested in pairing this nonfiction with 'The Fox in the Attic' which is said to be one of the best novelizations of Germany under the Nazis; populated richly with characters in power at the time.


Tammy Letitia wrote: "Michael wrote: "For me it is the best book on the Third Reich."
It is for me too, but it is the only WW Two I have read.

Have you read any others that you think are worthwhile to read?"



This is fictionalized history, but it goes over a lot of the facts in this book

The Castle in the Forest it's by Normal Mailer.

Mailer sets "out to explore the evil of Adolf Hitler" in a totally unique and entertaining manner.


message 17: by Jay (new) - rated it 3 stars

Jay Scott R. Michael wrote: "Particularly fascinating is the story of how the Nazis managed to get into power. If the economy gets mismanaged bad enough ANYTHING can happen! Even here. That's the lesson I came away with. Well..."

my thought exactly. our economy really worries me in reguards to our security.


message 18: by Rapidio (last edited May 16, 2013 09:15PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rapidio Another book in this vein I would recommend is Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich". Wonderfully informative.


message 19: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale C.e. wrote: "I always recommend reading John Toland's "The Rising Sun" together with this one, to get the full Japanese story that completes the Axis picture."
Do not forget Toland's bio on Adolf Hitler, I loved Albert Speers bios. About his WW2 life.


message 20: by Sadek (new)

Sadek neatly organized, well narrated. I just hope some day one the books about Britain's and France's colonial agression make it to the NYtimes bestseller... just once. Hitler was Europe nightmare, exaclty like France and Britain for others. With just one difference: Time span. Those two latter happened for centuries.


message 21: by Feliks (last edited Oct 26, 2013 10:47AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Feliks Good point. However, I think there's a few more differences than just timespan. At the very least, you could say that the Nazis took over countries who were their contemporaries, their neighbors; nations who stood with them in the same stage of development and history. The age of Colonialism began with the premise that indigenous peoples were not equals and that these distant lands had no governments. They weren't seen as 'nations' at all. Maybe its a moot point since, (obviously) genocide was the unfortunate result in each case. Still, I don't think the analogy fits very precisely. Even Britain's role in the Irish Potato Famine was not a deliberate wish to exterminate a whole people for the sake of racial superiority. Colonialism was about economic markets. I myself do not see colonialism as a thoroughly clear-cut evil. It was a part of history that probably couldn't have occurred any other way. Given the timeperiod, what should we have expected from Europe of the 1600s?


message 22: by Sadek (new)

Sadek I strongly urge you to read more about colonialism. Middle east and North Africa were NATIONS... part of the Ottoman empire which vanished just after some unknkown-to-turkish dictator userped power during WWI.By the way some say he is Jew. Now a bit into what you Feliks say, "the premise that indigenous peoples were not equals". Isn't it true that most American and European media preach the so called EQUALITY. In case you say "yes". Why is it that no single leader promote recompensation for us like what Germany paid and still pay generously... of course this is just a matter of opinion --nothing personal, since no one would ever dare.


message 23: by Sadek (new)

Sadek Sorry, to add.
Isn't it exactly the same NAZI propaganda. Meaning arians are not equal to others. It's the same argument.


message 24: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Sadek wrote: "Sorry, to add.
Isn't it exactly the same NAZI propaganda. Meaning arians are not equal to others. It's the same argument."


The grand mufti was a avid Nazi supporter, why do any of the countries deserve recompensation?


message 25: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale dale wrote: "Sadek wrote: "Sorry, to add.
Isn't it exactly the same NAZI propaganda. Meaning arians are not equal to others. It's the same argument."

The grand mufti was a avid Nazi supporter, why do any of t..."
William Shirer was an American journalist and if you think this is nazipropoganda your ability to understand the book is severely limited .
Why not read more of African, Muslim colonization of Spain.


message 26: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale ShIrer was a journalist, American
Lets read of the Muslim invasion of Spain .the subjugation of eastern Europe .Money will change history ? No! Let's talk of monies owed theUSfromWW2. The only country to repay its WW2 debt is Finland. Imagine the interest.
Rise and fall of the tird reich is HIS intercept action of what happen.
The term Arian is a mispronunciation of the word Iranian.


Donna Davis I found it a little dry. It isn't terrible, but I like Shaara's work better. I also like the theoretical work on fascism by Guerin (I read the English translation), and Trotsky.


message 28: by Feliks (last edited Oct 26, 2013 09:37PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Feliks Sadek wrote: "I strongly urge you to read more about colonialism. Middle east and North Africa were NATIONS... part of the Ottoman empire which vanished just after some unknkown-to-turkish dictator userped power during WWI.By the way some say he is Jew. Now a bit into what you Feliks say, "the premise that indigenous peoples were not equals". Isn't it true that most American and European media preach the so called EQUALITY. In case you say "yes". Why is it that no single leader promote recompensation for us like what Germany paid and still pay generously... of course this is just a matter of opinion --nothing personal, since no one would ever dare. ..."

Please. If you dislike my POV don't go telling me to ramp up my education. Sight unseen (just based on your reasoning, your poor elocution --without looking at your shelves) I'm betting I'm more versed in history than you.

Your arguments are simply on the weak side. In fact they border on gibberish. You're mixing up modern times with attitudes of 400 years ago, and you also bring in the term 'preaching'. Who is preaching? You're incoherent. The media is not the government.

Whatever 'nations' you think existed in North Africa in the 1600s; matters not a whit. They were not 'first-world nations' as would have been recognized by the ruling powers of Europe. Money talks, artillery talks, navies talk.

Reparations? Bwahaha a haha aaha. What? Look, its just like I said earlier: colonialism was something that couldn't have been avoided. Stronger vs weaker. No crying over spilt milk.


message 29: by Feliks (last edited Oct 26, 2013 09:38PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Feliks Good refs, Donna! Trotsky, one of the most brilliant political minds of the century; far too under-read.


message 30: by Feliks (last edited Oct 26, 2013 09:41PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Feliks dale wrote: "ShIrer was a journalist, American
Lets read of the Muslim invasion of Spain .the subjugation of eastern Europe .Money will change history ? No! Let's talk of monies owed theUSfromWW2. The only c..."


More gibberish. Who are these guys?


Feliks abhay wrote: "this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it.. fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by the german way ..."

Normandy is not covered by this book.

The best book to discover the ways of the German fighting machine is Rommel's 'Infantry Attacks'.


message 32: by Sadek (new)

Sadek dale wrote: "ShIrer was a journalist, American
Lets read of the Muslim invasion of Spain .the subjugation of eastern Europe .Money will change history ? No! Let's talk of monies owed theUSfromWW2. The only c..."


dale wrote: "ShIrer was a journalist, American
Lets read of the Muslim invasion of Spain .the subjugation of eastern Europe .Money will change history ? No! Let's talk of monies owed theUSfromWW2. The only c..."


I admit the word 'arian' is mispelled. I should have written ARYAN. I am not native... Any way, your Mufti spoke for himself. He was a figurhead, a spiritual leader. No one ELECTED him. Besides, in his time Palestine was under British administration, naturally enough he would side with Germany - pay attention GERMANY as opposed to Britain, not Hitler. ... the list is very long.
For Spain... it was not OCCUPATION for the obvious reason that most Iberian intermaried with new commers who brought them Justice, Science, and and and.. there are some BBC documentaries about Islam in Spain and the "INQUISITON" you might be interested to watch Dale. Don't be surprised by the fact that Andalus finance waas managed by Jews.
And speaking of BBC, it broadcasted some documentaries about the acquisition of New mexico, California, Texas... and above all poor Native Indians.
My first post was about the 'OTHER OPINION'. it is very strange how some people preach freedom of speech for themselves and supress the "Horrible other". Believe me, I know this pattern.


message 33: by Sadek (new)

Sadek Feliks wrote: "Sadek wrote: "I strongly urge you to read more about colonialism. Middle east and North Africa were NATIONS... part of the Ottoman empire which vanished just after some unknkown-to-turkish dictator..."

1) I did not say you are under educated. I say we are humain and we do miss things.
2) The media is the MAIN source of governments rhetoric.
And 3)Thank you for the last PARAGRAPH in your comment. It shed light on the past as well as on the present. thanks a lot.
I am utterly upset, I almost fell while reading your comment.


message 34: by Sadek (new)

Sadek I hope this one is the last because we went far off track.
The main reason why Columbus went west is those nation you say are not equal. Europeans had to pay dear in order to have their goods across.
You might lookup the Otoman empire map during the 16th century.............


message 35: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Due to the large number of Muslim volunteers, the Handschar Divisions were the largest of Hitler's 38 Waffen-SS divisions.


message 36: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale But remember too that the Arabic countries are our source for modern medicine, and algebra


message 37: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is a non-fiction book by William L. Shirer chronicling the general history of Nazi Germany from 1932 to 1945. It was first published in 1960, by Simon & Schuster in the United States, where it won a National Book Award.[1] It was a bestseller in both the U.S. and Europe, and a critical success outside Germany, where harsh criticism stimulated sales. Academic historians were generally critical.
Rise and Fall is based upon captured Third Reich documents, the available diaries of propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, General Franz Halder, and of the Italian Foreign Minister Galeazzo Ciano, evidence and testimony from the Nuremberg trials, British Foreign Office reports, and the author's recollection of six years reporting on the Third Reich for newspapers, the United Press International (UPI), and CBS Radio —terminated by Nazi Party censorship in 1940.[2]
It was written with current knowledge of what happen, I think it would be a considerable different book today.
Whereas nearly all American journalists praised the book, scholars were split. Some acknowledged Shirer's achievement but most condemned it.[9] The harshest criticism came from those who disagreed with the Sonderweg or "Luther to Hitler" thesis.
Klaus Epstein listed what he contended were "four major failings": a crude understanding of German history; a lack of balance, leaving important gaps; no understanding of a modern totalitarian regime; and ignorance of current scholarship of the Nazi period.[15] Shirer is, however, far more neutral in his tone compared to Alan Bullock, and Shirer lived and worked as a reporter in "the Third Reich" until Germany declared war on the United States in December 1941.
Elizabeth Wiskemann concluded in a review that the book was "not sufficiently scholarly nor sufficiently well written to satisfy more academic demands... It is too long and cumbersome... Mr Shirer, has, however compiled a manual... which will certainly prove useful."[16]
Forty years later, historian Richard J. Evans, author of The Third Reich Trilogy (2003 to 2008), conceded that Rise and Fall is a "readable general history of Nazi Germany" and that "there are good reasons for [its] success." Evans contended that Shirer worked outside of the academic mainstream and that Shirer's account was not informed by the historical scholarship of the time (1960).[17]
In West Germany, the "Luther to Hitler" interpretation was almost universally rejected in favor of the view that Nazism was simply one instance of totalitarianism that arose in various countries. Gavriel Rosenfeld asserted in 1994 that Rise and Fall had been unanimously condemned by German historians in the 1960s, and considered dangerous to relations between America and West Germany, as it might inflame anti-German sentiments in the United States.[18]


message 39: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Feliks wrote: "abhay wrote: "this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it.. fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by t..."

Thank you will read that.


message 40: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Feliks wrote: "abhay wrote: "this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it.. fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by t..."

Feliks wrote: "abhay wrote: "this book is amazin for the insight into the furhers mind....n esp. the last wave of attack n fall of it.. fm normandy landing to enigma failure to evrythn....u ll be just amazed by t..."
Amen


message 41: by Sadek (new)

Sadek dale wrote: "But remember too that the Arabic countries are our source for modern medicine, and algebra"
And also Physics, Astronomy, Geography, navy... and even government.
I remember when I first started reading about America's founding fathers that some of them were influenced by some italien scholars who were influenced by Arab's idea's about governing.


message 42: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Thank you so much of modern medicine was brought back from the crusades. Smart is not race related
But I owe no monies to anyone.


message 43: by Sadek (new)

Sadek dale wrote: "Thank you so much of modern medicine was brought back from the crusades. Smart is not race related
But I owe no monies to anyone."


Hey, not just medicine. The place where you now live was discovered by "someone" who based his theory of sailing west to reach India on OUR SCIENTISTS of the time works and their theories about the earth being round. And hey, people got hanged in europe of the time because they publicly said "it's a globe".


message 44: by Sadek (new)

Sadek dale wrote: "Due to the large number of Muslim volunteers, the Handschar Divisions were the largest of Hitler's 38 Waffen-SS divisions."

Many Muslims were in the war front- with the allied forces as well.
My grand father almost went there too. I am grateful he hadn't.


Esdaile Michel wrote: "Like you, JulieLaLa, I found the book compelling for any reader who has only casual interest in historical topics. However, I do not agree that the book is totally objective. The research that went..."

Correct.I would just add that Shrirer was a journalist, not a historian. His business was telling a good story, selling copy, making his case, not projecting insightful understandings of historical events.


message 46: by Sadek (new)

Sadek Any noticed this? This author seems to over emphasize Allied victories while stubornly and despratly dwarfs Axes's. Any thoughts?


message 47: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Esdaile wrote: "Michel wrote: "Like you, JulieLaLa, I found the book compelling for any reader who has only casual interest in historical topics. However, I do not agree that the book is totally objective. The res..."
good point there, i do not think he had alterior motives for writing the book but every author writes from their point of view,i would guess.


message 48: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Sadek wrote: "Any noticed this? This author seems to over emphasize Allied victories while stubornly and despratly dwarfs Axes's. Any thoughts?"

Nope why would an american write from any one elses point of view. Is the american revolution taught from the British point of view, no.


message 49: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Whereas nearly all American journalists praised the book, scholars were split. Some acknowledged Shirer's achievement but most condemned it.[9] The harshest criticism came from those who disagreed with the Sonderweg or "Luther to Hitler" thesis.
Klaus Epstein listed what he contended were "four major failings": a crude understanding of German history; a lack of balance, leaving important gaps; no understanding of a modern totalitarian regime; and ignorance of current scholarship of the Nazi period.[15] Shirer is, however, far more neutral in his tone compared to Alan Bullock, and Shirer lived and worked as a reporter in "the Third Reich" until Germany declared war on the United States in December 1941.


message 50: by dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

dale Forty years later, historian Richard J. Evans, author of The Third Reich Trilogy (2003 to 2008), conceded that Rise and Fall is a "readable general history of Nazi Germany" and that "there are good reasons for [its] success." Evans contended that Shirer worked outside of the academic mainstream and that Shirer's account was not informed by the historical scholarship of the time (1960).


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