Dresden Files discussion

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Justin Dumorne is.... a good guy

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message 1: by Magicmike (new)

Magicmike | 37 comments Ok all. I know I haven't posted in here in almost a year. Hi btw.

Anyway, I've been re-listening to the series again....smh.

I've heard us give a lot of mention about Justin coming back. Cowl is justin etc...

Not sure I've read this one though. I think Justin Dumorne is going to end up being a good guy. What he's done since the he took Harry in...is preparing him. Sicking the walker on him so that he could beat it while so young, and knowing he had that knowledge later. I think Justin IS Cowl....and I think he's been shaping Harry for the ultimate save the world from bad guys ONLY he can beat.

I have more to say but limited time to say it ...I think this is going to be end game.

Thoughts?


Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Not sure if a good guy would use mind magic to twist others to their will. Think it may be a bit of a stretch, but then I'm not the biggest fan of the theory that cowl is Justin in the first place. Just think that it would need to take a pretty bent mind to adopt and raise 2 orphans only to turn on them and try to turn them into mind-slaves, rather than talking them round to your point of view. I mean, he raised Harry and Elaine with no knowledge of the white council at all. They were cut off so that they would have no-one else to turn to.


message 3: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
This is an interesting theory. @Archimedes, you have a point too, but I think it could be possible if you think that Harry has been shown to have inaccurate memories. He might remember (and so related to us) events incorrectly or shaded by incomplete information. Just saying, there's a way to justify what's happened, or rather, for what we think happened to fit in a different narrative.

Can't wait to find out!


message 4: by Llaph (new)

Llaph  (llaph) | 5 comments I think if Butcher is going to play it that way he will no doubt lay it all out so that it'll make sense. I know I have read books where this has happened. Sometimes they did a good job and others ... well they didn't do so good of a job. lol


Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments @ Monica. Very true. And we all know Harry is special and has some kind of ability concerning the outsiders, so Justin could have been (and probably was) shaping him for a purpose - I'm just not convinced that that purpose was for the greater good. Even a bad guy could see the value of someone born with that special ability concerning outsiders.


Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Justin could have either been preparing Harry to save the world, or preparing him to help Justin control or destroy it.


Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Justin could have either been preparing Harry to save the world, or he could have been preparing Harry to help Justin control or destroy it. I don't think we can know, unless it turns out that Cowl is Justin and therefore possibly giving us more backstory.


message 8: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
I think you're right on target, Archimedes. That scenario could go either way.


message 9: by Cherie (new)

Cherie | 96 comments Well I have to admit I find this theory abhorrent story-wise - but I'll put that aside. [nothing personal LOL] It raises a question though . . . how on earth does the white council KNOW what happened - I mean ever if there's no one around? I mean Harry was charged with killing Justin - if they didn't know about Harry and Elaine then how did they know it was Harry? And how did they NOT know about the outsider if so? Was Harry charged with Elaine's death too? She wasn't considered a wizard - but why not? If they knew about Justin they would know there was another person there [they seemed to know a lot about who was in places hit by the red court who weren't magic folk]. I guess I've chalked it all up to early volume lack of clarity so often found in series like this, but if we're really picking it apart as if it's been fully formed from day one, those are questions to me.


message 10: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Those are good questions! Got no answers, though. I am rereading, and now in the middle of Grave Peril. If I find something pertaining to this, I'll add to this thread!


message 11: by Cherie (new)

Cherie | 96 comments LOL I just restarted grave peril again myself


message 12: by Archimedes Grimm (new)

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments @ Cherie I had a whole long answer typed out, and now it seems to have disappeared. Sigh. Here are the cliffnotes: Maybe the council could tell it was Harry because he used magic to kill Dumone? Each persons magic leaving an individual residue or signature? Maybe the council questioned a demon like Harry did in an earlier book? Or they could have found out from the fae - Harry had just made a bargain with Lea to give him the power to defeat Dumone. We do know that the council didn't show up immediately, otherwise they would have found Harry holding Bob's skull as he fished it out from the ashes of Justin's home. If they did look for a magic signature, I'm not entirely sure how that would have worked, seeing as Harry's offensive weapon of choice at that stage was fire and fire cleanses magical residue. I known they would have been able to see that Harry killed Justin from looking at him through the sight or by soulgazing him once they had found him, but am not sure how they found him in the first place. Am I going way off base here? Can't really tell anymore. Thoughts?


message 13: by Martine (new)

Martine | 1 comments Archimedes Grimm wrote: "@ Cherie I had a whole long answer typed out, and now it seems to have disappeared. Sigh. Here are the cliffnotes: Maybe the council could tell it was Harry because he used magic to kill Dumone? Ea..."

Magicmike wrote: "Ok all. I know I haven't posted in here in almost a year. Hi btw.

Anyway, I've been re-listening to the series again....smh.

I've heard us give a lot of mention about Justin coming back. Cowl is ..."


Soulgazing isn't like reading apolice report. We don't know what they would be able to see if they soulgazed harry. He killed in self defense, so it may not even register. In any case, Justin is dead. I am pretty sure that the White Council can tell dead from alive. Just like Kemmler is dead. I mean for all we know everyone who we think is dead in the series is alive…but in general, in the Dresden verse, dead is FINAL.


message 14: by Cherie (new)

Cherie | 96 comments Archimedes Grimm wrote: "@ Cherie I had a whole long answer typed out, and now it seems to have disappeared. Sigh. Here are the cliffnotes: Maybe the council could tell it was Harry because he used magic to kill Dumone? Ea..."

It's an interesting theory - the ben aaronovich series has such clues to the magic user [signare? Can't remember exactly - plus I listen not read so don't know how it looks LOL] but I feel like if that was an option they would have mentioned it before.

I agree with Martine on the soulgazing - definitely more like 'who you are' than 'what you've done' but the demon questioning angle is definitely an option :)


message 15: by Archimedes Grimm (new)

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments I agree that soulgazing is about who you are etc, but was under the impression that using magic to kill leaves a mark, an essence - depending on how it's done, I think? Just like when Molly was untrained and dabbling in mind-magic (trying to avoid spoilers here.) You have to believe in whatever magic you do, and believing that you can use magic to kill can't be a good thing. That said, I don't have huge faith in the magical signiture thing (unless speaking about how/the way spells are constructed, like a bombmaker) or even the Soulgaze theory really, except that killing someone would leave a mark on your soul that others could see. Just trying to think outside the box a bit.


message 16: by Archimedes Grimm (new)

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Spoilers* Sorry, that came out a tad garbled. I think the "killing someone and leaving you marked in some way" thing came partially from what Harry sees when he looks at Murphy with the sight - an avenging angel, but whose robes have been soiled with dirt etc. Murphy underwent psychological attacks etc and those leave marks. Molly tried to bend others to her will and got a little bent because of it. Surely killing a father figure with magic would leave some mark on your aura? Also remembering a reference to the short story where Thomas is the narrator. The woman who comes to Harry with the sob-story didn't kill someone just before going to him because that kind of energy lingers or something.


message 17: by Archimedes Grimm (new)

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments But Harry was in a fight for his life, so it might very well be different. Probably is in fact. Wish we could know what people see when they look at Harry through the sight


message 18: by Archimedes Grimm (new)

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Never mind me guys. I'm blaming this one on sleep deprivation. Onto a differeny topic, I really hope Justin Dumone is dead, and Kemmeler too for that matter - think the books will be more satisfying if those are true.


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