Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Groovy Lee
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Need GOOD advice on marketing your books successfully!!
Groovy,A website, dedicated to a specific work and its author, can be an effective promotional tool, if well designed and consistently maintained.
Author appearances and participation at public venues such as libraries, bookstores, book clubs, and literary festivals and conventions provide great self-promotion and networking opportunities.
Active participation in literary websites, such as Goodreads, not only in self-promotion threads, but general discussions as well, can be rewarding. Allow members to get to know you as a person as well as an author.
Many readers are fiercely loyal to a particular vendor as their source for purchasing books. An author's work's commercial viability is exponentially increased by the number of commercial vendors that carry it.
I hope these suggestions help. I wish you success.
Thank-you, Jim. I always know that when I need good advice, you are there:)I'm going to try the libraries, etc.
A few things that have worked for me:Agree with Jim about getting involved in Goodreads groups other than author/promo areas. I have a lot of interests, so it's fun and people can click on my name or not.
I have a website about my book, with buying links, a writing blog and my film work that I update regularly.
There's also a link there to a non-writing related blog I write for an online magazine (my byline has a link to the site and generates a lot of traffic).
As with Goodreads, I have joined lots of Facebook groups with shared interests. My novel has multiple genres and I interact with both readers and writers' groups in these areas. I don't have an author Facebook page as I think it's a waste of time, though many writers have one. I rarely post about my book on my personal page; only if something major happens.
My novel was published last August and it's only now, after a huge amount of work - which has not left me a lot of time to write - I am finally starting to see word-of-mouth and other spontaneous referrals to my book and web site.
In short, I try to be a 'this-is-me' author rather than a 'BUY MY BOOK!' one, if that makes sense!
Thank you, Steve, it does make sense. I love interacting in the Goodreads' forums, I'll join more.I do need to work on my blog, I'm a very quiet person and I honestly wouldn't know what to post regularly. Any suggestions?
Also, your comment about Facebook. I was just trying to get my author page in order, now you say it's a waste of time for you. Why? I ask because honestly, I really hate Facebook, but thought it was something I HAD to do as an author.
I'm thinking just stick to the sorry blog I have here on Goodreads. What do you think?
Your blog is fine, Groovy, and as it's your blog, you can write whatever you like. Or not have a blog; your call. Just from what you have said so far, you have plenty to say about your uncertainty and your quest to find the right path for your writing career. Maybe explore those thoughts.As to Facebook, I am a bit of a contrarian. Whenever I read writing advice (which I always consider to be opinion) that begins with 'you have to' or 'you must' or 'how can you hope to be a writer if you don't...' I get very annoyed. The joy of writing is that it is a beautifully individual pursuit and what may work brilliantly for one person may be completely useless for another.
My very strong opinion (not advice) is that every piece of writing 'advice' should be questioned and tested - if you think it might help - and that there is no right or wrong way to write, only your way.
And, while I'm lecturing, you don't have a 'sorry blog,' you have a writers' blog. Be proud of it!
I probably made this point a little better in my blog piece, Writing Bull, if you have a minute to spare.
Thank you, Steve, you've helped and encouraged me so much. Your "strong opinion" is spot on. I'll look at your blog.All the best to you
I recently read an article about the importance of having an editor, and it gave examples that showed how much the writer's voice had been altered, supposedly for the better. But, was it?
Margaret wrote: "I recently read an article about the importance of having an editor, and it gave examples that showed how much the writer's voice had been altered, supposedly for the better. But, was it?"Editing is extremely important. A professional critique will inevitably enhance the quality of any author's work. That said; it is the author's prerogative to accept or reject the suggestions of the conceptual editor and make any changes. The author must sign-off on the final draft prior to publication. So responsibility and ownership of the end result rests with the author alone.
Groovy wrote: "I do need to work on my blog, I'm a very quiet person and I honestly wouldn't know what to post regularly. Any suggestions?"Whatever you do, don't write about writing. We already have about a hundred million blogs by amateur authors, writing about writing. We don't need another. Out of the 96 posts on my site, maybe six deal directly with writing.
Jim wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I recently read an article about the importance of having an editor, and it gave examples that showed how much the writer's voice had been altered, supposedly for the better. But, ..."Interesting points.
Margaret wrote: "I recently read an article about the importance of having an editor, and it gave examples that showed how much the writer's voice had been altered, supposedly for the better."A good/professional editor should never change the author's voice or insert themselves into a novel. There are different types of edits. When working with a reputable publisher, a developmental edit is delivered first, in the form of a letter accompanying your MS. It is not unusual for editorial letters to be up 20 pages or more in length. They will detail strengths and weaknesses with the MS and possible courses of action. The author then makes the changes NOT the editor. If you reject a change at the developmental level you must outline & support your reasons to your editor and the publisher. I had a situation where the editor & publisher did not like a subplot involving secondary characters. They asked for the subplot to be removed (which I did, and it grew into its own spin off novella). Changes are to make the MS better, but the author needs to be able to see the critique in an objective light.
Line edits are done by using track changes on the MS. Again an editor won't change the voice, but will highlight what is wrong and leave it to the author to correct (except for minor changes). And again, if you reject certain changes you may need to explain to the editor/publisher.
A reputable publisher will put your MS through several edit rounds, at least - 1 developmental, 2 line edits and then a proof read. Sometimes the author is also sent physical proof sheets to mark up, depending on how the publisher operates.
I had the same experience as A.W. My editor was very good and pointed out problem passages, but always left it up to me to revise them - or not. (There was only one 'or not' occasion)One thing he said (about final edits) that has stuck with me, was: writers should never edit their own work, because they see what was meant and not what was written.
Thank you so much. A.W. and Steve. You have explained a lot. :)
Whatever you do, don't write about writing. We already h..."Duly noted.
Try discovering a Facebook group made up of readers rather than writers. Like Goodreads, they wouldn't want to you charging in there plugging your book, but there are places that welcome interaction with writers.
John wrote: "Try discovering a Facebook group made up of readers rather than writers. Like Goodreads, they wouldn't want to you charging in there plugging your book, but there are places that welcome interactio..."Thanks, John. Do you know of one I can try?
Hi.I am a fairly new author, but I have found that doing author visits to places is the best promo. Direct interaction with your audience. My books are for children, so I have gone into the schools to chat with the kids. They love it and so do I.....but I am not quiet or shy really. :)
You just walk in the schools and introduce yourself and your work, and it's that easy? They don't mind?
Groovy, I think arrangements have to be made before visiting a school, but that's part of the job.It's like saying a writer should never edit their own work, while often true isn't always. Set the work aside for a while, write something else, start a family, study paleoanthropology, or do some other activity.
I set aside a novel for almost two years, and am slowly catching and correcting rough spots. It takes time, since the little demon princess doesn't give me much time, but it can be done.
If there are reader-writer events where you live, try to attend them. Try attending a convention related to your work. San Antonio has Alamo City Comic Con, and similar venues are opening up in other large metro areas. I'd say avoid SxSW as the traffic in Austin bites on a good day (worse than Atlanta).
Have a few promo copies of your work printed, or promo ecopies (a business card with the web-address for the work) ready for interested readers you might run into at gatherings.
The bottom line though is how you engage your audience is up to you, and it is a job.
R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy, I think arrangements have to be made before visiting a school, but that's part of the job.It's like saying a writer should never edit their own work, while often true isn't always. Set th..."
R.F.G., I get told that a lot. "Engage with your audience". I'm improving in that area, because I'm a very shy, quiet author, and I know that's not good. The thought of making arrangements with any group or school to engage them face-to-face is daunting. I'm going to start with the library and go from there. *taking a deep breath* Thank you for your comment.
Groovy wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy, I think arrangements have to be made before visiting a school, but that's part of the job.It's like saying a writer should never edit their own work, while often true isn't..."
And here I thought I was the only one! I too tend to be shy and quiet but it's not because I want to be, believe me! Also I find it difficult trying to set up an event to attend in person for my books. I've done one book signing and would love to do more but my city sucks and doesn't hold such events though I keep my eyes open.
I see it like this, yes I'm shy but there's no big event I've see around here but if there is I'm attending it. I'd say you should do the same, if you happen to come across one just remember you can be shy at any other time no now it's time to put on that smile and cheerfulness!
There are classes and seminars that teach public speaking, presentation creation and delivery, and extemporaneous speaking. Highly recommended for those who are naturally shy or become nervous when addressing a large audience.
Justin wrote: "Groovy wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy, I think arrangements have to be made before visiting a school, but that's part of the job.It's like saying a writer should never edit their own work, while o..."
OMG! But of course, you're right. Thanks, all.
Groovy,The Wife says she envies me being a social creature, when in reality she envies my ability to act social when I'd rather be elsewhere. I'm gregarious (I don't mind talking) without being social (I don't enjoy the company of other humans enough to want to be stuck in a herd of them).
Consider that many people get nervous at the thought of public speaking, making cold calls, talking to officialdom, or doing the speak and greet at an event. I remember one speaker who always hit the bathroom ten minutes before making a presentation so he could hurl because he was terrified of standing in front of a crowd. The majority of people who listened to the guy never had a clue how scared he was before each engagement.
If you can imagine and visualize your happy place, and you can focus on that while doing the things you find uncomfortable, it might help.
I probably won't hit the Alamo City thing this year due to other things Wife and I are trying to do, but next year I'll be ready with promo copies, cards, prints of cover art, and so on.
I'd rather take on a belt-fed machine-gun dressed only in my skivvies while wielding a stomach-curdling poopy diaper than be stuck in the middle of several hundred people at a convention. When it's time to kick back I prefer the quiet places, cliffs, mountains, nature...
Find your zen spot, it will help make all the other schtuff go a lot easier.
John wrote: "Hello members,I clicked on this topic out of curiosity because I wondered if anyone has actually made any sense out of selling books.
As usual, no one quantifies results, least of all in the many..."
I totally understand what you mean with your opening sentence. You see "advice" and "marketing" and think perhaps there's a chance you will read something you haven't before. I don't think it's so much a let down that there's nothing new for people to offer its us as authors taking what advice we already know and have received and trying it out to see if it works for us.
Sure, we can try to do all things people advise to try to sell more books but obviously we should consider that we should not try to do them all at once and not everything is going to work for everyone. Some may take to certain marketing that works for them while other ideas just don't work, that's just how it is sometimes. Some of the things you mentioned should go without saying such as a solid looking cover and well written blurb.
Also, all readers are different. All are attracted to certain books in certain ways whether it be the cover, blurb, recommendation, trailer, excerpt, etc. The idea for an author is to cover their bases and create all the basics needed to attract those readers. Will they work? We won't know but it doesn't hurt to at least try.
Jim wrote: "There are classes and seminars that teach public speaking, presentation creation and delivery, and extemporaneous speaking. Highly recommended for those who are naturally shy or become nervous when..."I forgot to mention the irony of your comment, Jim. I do take such classes. Ask me if it's working. This is my blank stare(--)
John wrote: "Hello members,I clicked on this topic out of curiosity because I wondered if anyone has actually made any sense out of selling books.
As usual, no one quantifies results, least of all in the many..."
A lot of what you said helped me to realize that getting the reader's attention matters just as much.
You also said you would have downloaded Steve Harrison's book if it were free. I do take sides with that because I really wish readers didn't expect us to give our work away for free all the time. They'll spend thousands of dollars on cell phones, but can't fork out $2.99 for an ebook. I sure Steve wished you had bought his book, right? But that's a topic for another thread:) Thanks, John.
Oh, and you're right. Steve's book cover is amazing. It drew my attention, too.
R.F.G. said:(I don't enjoy the company of other humans enough to want to be stuck in a herd of them).LOL!
John wrote: "But you need the herd to buy your book. Hmm!"I don't enjoy being stuck in large crowds but I do plan to go to a convention with promo stuff and smile till my face cracks. If possible my little demon will accompany so she can hone her minion-gathering skills.
I learned long ago to deal with situations I may not care for, whether it's waking up during surgery with one eye deflated while it's being scraped clean or draining a bad abscess from a broken tooth because the dentist wanted cash up front. I zoned during an MRI once as I was focused on my happy place -- the techs were afraid I'd died because only corpses were supposed to be that still for that long.
As for needing a ton of sales, it's irrelevant. Having a few copies out in the world works for me for a very simple reason; the clock is ticking.
I can focus on trying to make a butt-load of money or concentrate on writing as I can while helping guide my child through the growing years, not both.
Steve wrote: "One thing he said (about final edits) that has stuck with me, was: writers should never edit their own work, because they see what was meant and not what was written."I agree with that IF one is in a hurry. Most indie writers seem to be in a mad dash to get their book released. I spent 12 years working on mine. There were times when left it for a whole year, and when I came back to it it felt like someone else's work--and I was fascinated by that, being able to be objective. That does make it possible to edit your own work. I can't begin to remember who it was, but some author once said he would always put his latest manuscript away for a year before reviewing it or sending it to his agent/editor.
The Mandate of Earth
Jonathan wrote: "Steve wrote: "One thing he said (about final edits) that has stuck with me, was: writers should never edit their own work, because they see what was meant and not what was written."I agree with t..."
I'm a terrible editor, Jonathan, - even when I take my time - so the advice worked for me!
And thanks for the comments about TimeStorm, everyone.
The book was published by a traditional publisher, so I have no control over pricing. But I am, for the record, very much against giving away books for free.
I see TimeStorm is currently available on Amazon for $3.36. What an incredible bargain! :)
I should have said I am very much against giving MY books away for free, as it's none of my business what others do. I apologise if it came across as criticism.I am working in a non-writing job, though retirement is not too far away. My aim is to transition into a career as a full time writer before that, though. Time will tell how realistic that is.
I was fortunate to sell the book to a publisher and access their editorial staff. They opened my eyes to a great deal of editing issues I hadn't thought of and, as a result, my next book will be much more polished before I submit.
Be chatty on twitter. That get me a few sales.
John wrote: "Steve wrote: "I should have said I am very much against giving MY books away for free, as it's none of my business what others do. I apologise if it came across as criticism.I am working in a non..."
My publisher is a very small company in the UK, John, so although they designed the cover and professionally edited the book, they don't have a huge marketing budget, so I do a lot of the promotion myself. I wouldn't change things, though, as I'm very happy with them and self-publishing looks like very hard work!
You're right, Steve. It is hard work. It's a full-time job to most of us. But I love it. I get to write what I want, any way that I want. It's so easy now to do everything on your own--cover design, editing, etc.For years, it was my dream to be a Harlequin romance author. And during the writing process, instead of enjoying the journey, all I could think more of was, "their guidelines" of what they wanted and did not want in the stories. I was so afraid that if I got one period out of place, I'd be rejected. (that went for contacting agents, too) Now I don't need anybody's approval, or anyone telling me "Sorry, you're just not for us" (boy, does that bring back memories)
Now, I enjoy writing so much more. I have control of everything. I think the only difference between SP and traditional is that they get a percentage of your earnings. After all, you do the promoting--the hardest part.
But, I'm glad you're with a company you're happy with.
Groovy wrote: "Hello, EveryoneIt's me again, needing advice. As an author, one of my weakest abilities concerning ebook self-publishing is getting the word out about my books (advertising) Shocking right?
I co..."
Having read through this topic, several things I didn't see mentioned were: blog reviews, blog tours, and getting your work out there via newspaper reviews.
Having never done a blog tour, I don't know much about that. However, I have gotten my book reviewed on several blogs. While it is hard to tell how much good having someone review your book on their blog does, I do know that it can get your book out there in front of anywhere from 56 to over 3,000 people depending on how many people follow that blog. Ultimately, that is what you want to do; get your book noticed by as many people as possible.
Newspapers are also a great way of getting your book out there. If you can convince your local or state newspaper to do a review on your book, or even an author interview, you can let more people know about you.
Brandon, I have a question:Did you notice your fan base growing with these avenues?
I contacted a local paper once about me and they were more than happy to showcase my book--until they found out I was self-published. But, I'm going to give it another try since my sales are growing.
Groovy wrote: "Brandon, I have a question:Did you notice your fan base growing with these avenues?
I contacted a local paper once about me and they were more than happy to showcase my book--until they found ou..."
That's a very good question. To answer it, yes, I have noticed an increase. Ever since my book was reviewed by several blogs, my Facebook page has increased from 1,000 to 1,330 without any direct advertising on my part. Book 1 of the series I'm writing has also stayed consistently between #30 and #55 spot on Amazon's top 100 fantasy ebooks, and book 2 has been similarly placed despite me not having done much to advertise it yet.
For a newspaper, one thing you want to do is give them a reason as to why they should review your book. The local angle is always good, but having something special on top of that, such as a book award or your story being placed in a "top 100" chart or something similar, will help sell your book to a local newspaper.
Groovy wrote: "Brandon, I have a question:Did you notice your fan base growing with these avenues?
I contacted a local paper once about me and they were more than happy to showcase my book--until they found ou..."
Part of the reason I find it hard to promote outside or contact local stores is because it's like once they hear your "self-published" it's a total turn off to them. Sort of an..oh your one of them sort of deal like it's a bad thing. I would say any chance you can get to promote and market your book to any local establishment who has no issue with your being self published by all means take it.
That's exactly how I feel, Justin. When I released my first suspense, you could choke on the "You must not be that good if you're self-published; Or a traditional house didn't want you, so you were forced to self-publish."--and they said it in such a condescending manner, not politely.A local morning show here has a book-woman that reviews books. She gave me a chance, read my book and loved it. And on city-wide television, Highly Recommended it. On the other hand, a local newspaper was all ready to allow me to talk about that same book, but when I mentioned it was self-published, they quickly changed their mind and said it was against their policy to give a spot to self-publish books.
It's so infuriating at times, but you have to keep looking. Some will help you, some won't.
Thanks!
The problem is that so many self-published books ARE poorly done. Lame plots or poor editing. Amateurish look and feel, poor covers, etc.Yours may be a good work, but there are enough works out there that SHOULD NEVER have been published that self-publishing still has a bad name (unless you're a famous, previously commercially-published author who's decided to keep ALL the money via self-publishing).
It's not your fault, but it's something that you have to live with if you want to go that way.
All is not lost. You can still make a name for yourself. It's just a bit harder. But if it were easy, EVERYONE would be a best-selling author.
Here's one that takes a special breed. This is a true story. My booth was next door to a writer and spouse at a two day sale/sign event. Sales were not up to the writer's expectations (although better than mine). On the second afternoon, there was still a good crowd, but no one was stepping up to their table. The writer became angry and yelled, "WHY AREN'T YOU PEOPLE STOPPING TO SEE ME?" Then, thrust a pile of brochures and a few books into the spouse's hands and yelled, "GO OUT THERE AND BRING ME SOME BUYERS!" The spouse dutifully walked off into the crowd and I watched the petty begging from person to person. It was to no avail and when the spouse returned, still loaded down, the writer cursed, packed up and they left. I didn't have the heart to even look at them.Now, what if this had been successful? The spouse could have kissed what little was left of a "life" goodbye. And, I still wouldn't have recommended this marketing technique.
Al, you really have to love the art of writing to put up with the stigma of being self-published. I can't imagine not writing, and I will never give up. I'm sure you'll agree that the hard efforts are worth it.Alex, I take it the writer was self-published. I had a friend that tried to talk me into doing that, I said, "Nuh-un, no way." Because I knew it would be much like the experience you just wrote about.
One thing works for one author, something else works for the other. Part of the job is finding what works for you.
John wrote: "But you need the herd to buy your book. Hmm!"If you need the herd to buy your book, your writing has to cater to herd tastes. Only one has to remember in the word 'masses' the letter 'm' is often silent.
Having been self-published for two years, I'm still struggling to get notice tbh.I've joined (& interacted with) Goodreads groups, fb groups, posted regularly on Twitter, done Tweet swaps, tried a book blast, have business cards, have recently created a blog...
It's frustrating; I have great reviews when people do find me. It's just letting them know I exist which I'm still struggling with.
Groovy, I don't know if it was Indie or not. I didn't recognize the publisher's name, and there are so many trad publishers and Indies that I can't tell the difference any more. Reading all the marketing techniques that commenters have reported in this thread reminds me of a saying in golf about putting, "Everything works; nothing works forever." As soon as someone invents something new and discovers that it works, they can't resist telling about it or selling it. Then, everyone does it, floods the market with it and it no longer distinguishes them from everyone else. The only common denominator I can see is to produce good books - in every respect. Otherwise, no amount of effort will succeed long term (filling it with sex may get you short term results, but...). Or, you could become a celebrity. I should stop now; my cynical side is rearing its ugly head.
T.L. wrote: "Having been self-published for two years, I'm still struggling to get notice tbh.I've joined (& interacted with) Goodreads groups, fb groups, posted regularly on Twitter, done Tweet swaps, tried ..."
T.L., I think all of us are having trouble in that area. It's been two years for me, too. My fan base is growing, but slowly. I tried neighborhood brochures--nothing. Bookstore brochures--nothing. It is frustrating and you have to keep trying until you find what works for you. Like you said, people like you when they finally find you, it's the letting them know you're there that's the hard part.
Thanks, Alex, you made some good points. It's like the old saying: "If you build it, they will come...". So, write a good book and your fans will eventually find you. Now go take an aspirin:)
To all of you who have expressed their hopes, desires, and frustrations in this thread,Trying to become successful in a field in which literally hundreds of thousands are also attempting to succeed requires patience, discipline, and talent. Striving to become the next bestselling author is a worthy goal. Don't allow frustration or anybody to discourage you from pursuing your dream. Some dreams do come true.
The dreams that come true are usually those that include hard work, study, practice, patience, perseverance, and the occasional reality check. That said; please allow me to share a bit of wisdom that comes with age and experience: Life is no big thing. It is a thousand little things.
Too often, we hardly notice the thousand wonderful little things going on around us, some of which could have a profound impact upon our lives, because we are so focused upon waiting for that one big thing to happen.
By all means, follow your dream; it may come true. However, keep your options open, just in case it doesn't. Another dream may be just waiting for you to acknowledge its presence, recognize its potential, and be willing to perform the hard work, study, and occasional reality check to make it come true.
Whatever future awaits you, I hope that it is bright and rewarding - whether it is becoming the next bestselling author or some other achievement.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
TimeStorm (other topics)The Mandate of Earth (other topics)
It's me again, needing advice. As an author, one of my weakest abilities concerning ebook self-publishing is getting the word out about my books (advertising) Shocking right?
I could really use some advice on the best ways you have found works for you. Here are a few avenues that have worked for me: being a member of forums and word of mouth--that's it!
Here's what didn't work: advertising on blog sites, brochure campaigns around your neighborhood and outside book stores.
If anyone knows of any sites that are successful in garnering sales, free or for a fee, I'd love to hear about it. I hear a lot about Facebook; I'm working on that, but it's a sucky page right now.
Thanks, I really appreciate your help.