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Wet: Part One (Wet Part, #1)
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message 1: by S. (last edited Apr 22, 2015 07:14AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments So my recent book is a genre jump for me. I went from YA Action and Adventure to Romance and because of the jump, I lost the great support team I had the first time around in my editor and my formatter--they don't do steamy.

So, it took forever to find a new formatter but I did and I think he's working out now that we've smoothed a few bumps, but the editor... is another story.

I am a storyteller and I count on a good editor to make sure I don't embarrass myself--I over-think punctuation and grammar to the point of incapacity.

So I found an Editing company by referral and trusted them, paid them a small fortune for the rounds of editing only to release a book full of typos and mistakes. I'm so embarrassed and frustrated. I did proof it myself just before sending it to the editor for the final round, but I think I see what I know it is supposed to say instead of what it actually does.

Arrrggghhh!!! I've found a new editor--she's proofed it AGAIN for yet ANOTHER chunk of money and I've had to submit the 40 pages of mistakes to Amazon for them to review. Had to pay the formatter extra to fix what shouldn't need fixing in the first place. Still trying to calm down before I approach the original editing company so I can appear a reasonable person.

I guess there is not a point to this post except that I had to vent. And I guess one point could be to warn other authors out there to watch out.


message 2: by Linda (new)

Linda Dobinson (baspoet) | 6 comments S I get the need to vent. I did my own editing and I have found about 3 mistakes but I just think - what the heck. I have found the occasional typos in books by famous writers that I have bought in Smiths. If you edit yourself you just have to read very very slowly - that how I found my typos.


message 3: by Theodora (new)

Theodora Gotsis | 4 comments That sucks if you paid. Something else to try is having the computer narrator read your book out loud. If you hear it, you can usually fix it.


message 4: by Linda (new)

Linda Dobinson (baspoet) | 6 comments Computer narrator? What is that? Why don't I have one? Well I suppose my PC wasn't top-of-the-range:(


message 5: by Philip (last edited Apr 23, 2015 01:36AM) (new)

Philip (phenweb) | 258 comments Most PCs and Macs have the ability sometimes hidden in accessibility settings. I have used the function to read paragraphs at a time and then re-edit from there. It can be slow but does identify some errors. Of course it is a bit weird hearing some pronunciations


message 6: by Theodora (new)

Theodora Gotsis | 4 comments If you check the control panel of your computer it should have a narrator function. It's nothing fancy and it sounds a bit off, but it can help


message 7: by Laurel (last edited Apr 23, 2015 04:02AM) (new)

Laurel Heidtman (kylaurel) | 434 comments I've used the speech to text function and never even thought about the reverse being available. What'll they think of next! :-)


message 8: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments I didn't know about that feature but I've been playing with it. I can't get it to read anything. It just goes on and on about every key stroke I make instead of reading my doc. Then it took me too long to figure out how to make it shut up. ha ha

I'll have to do more research.


message 9: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments Update: I finally got the typos fixed and formatter sent the new print file over today. Submitted to Createspace and am waiting for a review so I can order another proof copy. Phew!

Formatter says he'll have the knew e-version tomorrow.


message 10: by Helen (new)

Helen Yeomans | 5 comments I feel your pain, S. I've just gone through a similar process but with perhaps a little more success since I used to be an editor. I've heard from others with stories like yours: lots of cash laid out for not-very-good results.

I'm not familiar with the computer-reading feature mentioned above, but I do know that reading out loud can show up a great many errors.

Good luck with your book! I've switched from general fiction, to fantasy, to YA (my latest) but luckily managed to keep most of my support group. Fingers crossed.


message 11: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments I suck at editing. Content and seeing typos ON OTHER PEOPLE's work, I'm good, but like I said, I second guess myself to death on grammar and punctuation.


message 12: by Diane (new)

Diane (drm1127) | 10 comments This thread is a god-send to me b/c I'm in this position now. I have paid Big Bucks...thousands...to have my first novel edited by (drum roll please) a NEW. YORK. EDITOR with a major publishing house. First response he was really tough...but correct. I took the suggestions to heart, made the corrections, and received high praise--and, I have to add to his credit I had a better novel for it. Paid more Big Bucks for graphic design, printing, have beautiful novel until a friend read it last week and said "there's a lot of errors here." Fortunately he told me this while we were in a bar. I stayed when he left.It turned out there were 8 errors, none grammatical, but reversed letters: "no" instead of "on" kind of thing; omission of article. Several people have read my novel, never mentioned this, but praised it as well. However while the strokes are nice, I now have to correct the 8 (unless he's found more) and redo b/c I can't peddle it to book stores or review bloggers in it's flawed condition. So.My pockets aren't deep. Should I go with Create Space? Lulu? Because I can't pay the same printer $$$. Previous Editor is reviewing the errors to see if they were there when he sent the draft back to me. Very much crying here b/c the buck, as they say, stops w/me. My name is on the cover so I'm responsible.


message 13: by J M (new)

J M Shorney (jmshorney) | 8 comments I have to employ an editor, two in fact. I don't trust myself, and rarely see my errors. But I know they are there,. So that when the book is ready to face the outside world,it's the best it can be. Any errors discovered later will always be corrected. We're only human. We all make mistakes. We just need others to spot them.


message 14: by S. (last edited Apr 24, 2015 12:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments I should go through and look at it, see if the editor just missed them--all 232 of them, or they somehow/magically appeared between editing and submitting. In all fairness, I should check before I ask for a refund.

And yes, it is my name on the finished product and I want to look like I kind of know what I'm doing. Bwah ha ha ha ha!


message 15: by Diane (new)

Diane (drm1127) | 10 comments I really like the editor and he did a good first read for me. I wouldn't ask for a refund, but we are in negotiations as I speak. More later...


message 16: by Helen (new)

Helen Yeomans | 5 comments Diane, you'll never find an error-free book. The key here is how numerous the errors are and how damaging. Things like the the are common, as well as on no and a missing article or two. Get someone you trust to go through and see if there are more than 8. Then have a drink and think about it.


message 17: by Diane (new)

Diane (drm1127) | 10 comments Thank you so much, Helen! Not that I need encouragement to have a drink. This is my debut novel and I wanted it to be "perfect." ...pause...However since this has happened I realize that it's more common than not. So far the reader who spotted the 8 hasn't responded and I assume he's now finished the novel. So if I have 8 absurdly common "errors" out of 350 pages (about 80,000 words) I shan't sob myself to sleep tonight. At least I avoided the dreaded there/their or site/sight/cite syndrome. I am glad the original editor is going to proof it again..I do trust him and he might cut me a deal. Is it ok to post my web site here?


message 18: by T.R. (new)

T.R. Robinson (t_r_robinson) | 56 comments It appears this discussion has moved onto the subject of editors. Nevertheless, I wish to add a little to the computer narrator feature question this commenced with.

Only recently did I discover the narrator feature on my computer. I was actually looking for something else when I came across it. Up to then I did not know it existed.

I have tried it with the manuscript of my new book, which is still in process. As someone said above the pronunciation can sound weird at times but I was surprised by how many minor errors it brought to my attention. It is just another means of helping our self-editing process. Of course you still need to go through your manuscript several times. I wrote about this in a recent blog post. If you are interested in reading it just follow this link: http://www.trbooks7.blogspot.gr/2015/...


message 19: by Diane (new)

Diane (drm1127) | 10 comments I knew about the computer narrator (on my computer it's called text to speech--I guess that's the same thing) and I regret I didn't use it. I've paid a bunch of $$, but when I get the next proof back from the editor...again...I'm running text-to-voice and intend to do so on any future work.


message 20: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments Update on the error problem. It took Amazon about 10 days to review the submitted corrections and this morning, I got word that they feel the corrections are minor, did I mention there were 230 of them? They won't bother to contact those who bought the typo-ridden copies but those people can actively seek out getting an updated version for free. Amazon gave me a link they can follow. I posted it on my FB page. I doubt too many will actually do it.

I did set Wet: Part 2 up for pre-order today. This time around, I have a great editor and I won't let that happen again.


Debbie's Spurts (D.A.) Jackson wrote: "Update on the error problem. It took Amazon about 10 days to review the submitted corrections and this morning, I got word that they feel the corrections are minor, did I mention there were 230 of ..."

Some kindle owners/users do have updates set to automatically download if that helps you. Some don't. Not likely to help, of course, with those who already read it (doubt many go back to see if an already-read was updated if doing manually and if done automatically they may not even notice it was updated but still not likely to re-read...).


message 22: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments Yeah, just happy to have the errors fixed. I'm so much happier with my new editor.


message 23: by V.W. (new)

V.W. Singer | 132 comments Text to speech can help a lot in editing. There are a number of free applications for Windows on the Net. However, what really helps the most is getting a good "voice". The better the "voice" the easier it is to recognise errors because the narration sounds more natural.

I like the "voices" from NeoSpeech, but they seem to have gone on line only. Ivona voices seem all right too, although I haven't actually used one apart from the on line demo.


message 24: by Anne (new)

Anne Morbey | 13 comments Diane, I feel your pain!! I used to proof read as part of my job, could look at a page of typing and see errors without having to read the words; this has proved a boon since I became a writer but - and this is where it's taken out of your control - when my first book came back from the printers I found errors that had not been there when I submitted the final copy. There are very few [and I mean very few] books these days that are error-free [but have that second drink anyway!]
Diane wrote: "This thread is a god-send to me b/c I'm in this position now. I have paid Big Bucks...thousands...to have my first novel edited by (drum roll please) a NEW. YORK. EDITOR with a major publishing hou..."


message 25: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 248 comments Don't forget there is a whole 'new' market in fleecing aspiring authors for editing/formatting/graphic design/marketing. The worst thing is that--since these are all necessities for publishing--authors are made to feel that paying top dollar will get them noticed and famous.

To solve this issue, please stop looking for the shortcut. Learn how to write a compelling story that engages the reader. Exchange your drafts with those of others through critique circles, which will show you the flaws in your own work while you learn from the mistakes other authors make. Don't expect overnight success, but study how popular/prolific authors ply their trade.

And don't be too eager to get your name on a book cover in the shop window--that desire made many people sign up with PublishAmerica and other vanity presses.

And never sign a contract without having it dissected by an expert, or you'll find yourself selling your soul.


message 26: by V.W. (new)

V.W. Singer | 132 comments Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Don't forget there is a whole 'new' market in fleecing aspiring authors for editing/formatting/graphic design/marketing. The worst thing is that--since these are all necessities for publishing--aut..."

If you want to find out if your work really has a readership, start with posting some free short stories. The harshest critics in the world are the people who get stuff for free. On the other hand, regardless of the comments, if the downloads grow, you know you are reaching somebody.


message 27: by Linda (new)

Linda Dobinson (baspoet) | 6 comments Hi Diane

I would not worry about a few typo's. I am currently reading Lindsey Kelk's latest and there are many typos - 'didn't' when it should have been 'hadn't' , a character using his own name when he was naming someone else, to name two. 'No' or 'on' is small in comparison.


message 28: by Wllm (new)

Wllm Worth | 4 comments I agree Linda, a few typo's are acceptable and if they aren't to a reader, they would find other reasons to complain. I think its common for writers when we are starting as a career, to think we need others to make our work better. The truth is, and I believe each of us discovers at some point, that we need to and can rely on ourselves and our growing talents.


message 29: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 248 comments Wllm wrote: "I think its common for writers when we are starting as a career, to think we need others to make our work better. The truth is, and I believe each of us discovers at some point, that we need to and can rely on ourselves and our growing talents."

Depends on what you're talking about. Proofreading your own work can be done, but the author does tend to read what they think they wrote, not the words actually on the page. So beta-readers and editors are still important for that aspect.

As for developmental editors - I don't mind if someone points out flaws in my work, but I don't always follow their advice on how to fix the flaw. In the end, I'm the sole person responsible. It's my name on the cover.


message 30: by T.R. (new)

T.R. Robinson (t_r_robinson) | 56 comments I totally agree with the comments about us knowing what it is we want from or in our books. Of course it helps if someone else reads through the manuscript to pick up errors we have missed. But in the end the book must reflect our intentions.


message 31: by Victoria (new)

Victoria Randall | 4 comments Yes, but far too many self-published authors think they can write when they don't know how to construct a sentence, or all their sentences are passive voice. I've read some books by some lovely people who clearly have a good story to tell,but just haven't mastered the trade yet. Like constructing a house or putting in plumbing, you can't just put words on paper and think it's good, you have to learn the trade.
I don't blame bookstores for not putting them on shelves.


message 32: by T.R. (new)

T.R. Robinson (t_r_robinson) | 56 comments Victoria wrote: "Yes, but far too many self-published authors think they can write when they don't know how to construct a sentence, or all their sentences are passive voice. I've read some books by some lovely pe..."

Agreed. But I was primarily commenting upon the fact, as indicated by some comments above, that some editors actually try to change the tale or at least the way it is portrayed. And of course, still accepting your comments about sentence structure, we need to allow for individual and possibly unique author voice.


message 33: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Gulley TR said: still accepting your comments about sentence structure, we need to allow for individual and possibly unique author voice.>>>
True, and that's called style. I've read blurbs on books that sounded sooooo good only to open and take a peek to discover I'd never be able to wade through that author's style of writing. Too unique, too oddly worded may get a few purchases at first, but it can also kill a career.
JMHO Patg


Debbie's Spurts (D.A.) There's a huge difference between just proofreading for typos and grammatical errors and editing. I agree though that there are (usually less experienced) editors that can rewrite or request rewrites to the point an author's voice is lost. As a reader, that voice very much matters.

But, some "unique" things need to be explained up front or just plain not done.

I've run into odd things. Like the author who decided to use a variety of punctuation other than quotation marks to denote different character conversations instead of using character names.

I don't think I would have cared for the book even if had been explained up front -- but, I can guarantee without the explanation before reading that it was not going to be a good read for me.


message 35: by T.R. (new)

T.R. Robinson (t_r_robinson) | 56 comments Patricia wrote: "TR said: still accepting your comments about sentence structure, we need to allow for individual and possibly unique author voice.>>>
True, and that's called style. I've read blurbs on books that s..."


Point taken Patricia. Ian's comments also add to your valid point. So in reality we need to find a balance. Not always easy but, generally, would seem worth pursuing.


message 36: by Harold (new)

Harold Titus (haroldtitus) | 26 comments Absolutely do not compromise your narrative style if you believe that it is lucid and communicates what you intend. Several years ago I approached a niche publisher where I live (Oregon coast) to have my Revolutionary War novel published. She declared that in certain places my narration would be too difficult for average readers (whoever they are) to understand or tolerate. Never mind that the vocabulary and sentence structure reflected the level of intelligence of the characters whose viewpoints I was expressing. "If you want me to publish your book," she said, "it will have to undergo major revision." What she was actually concerned about was sales. I moved on.

Ian's advice (message #35) mirrors my own experience. If you are having difficulty with a certain aspect of narration, see how an author that you admire deals with the problem.


message 37: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Gulley Harold, Oregon coast, I think I know that publisher. And you are right, but it's all publishers, bottom line and sales are the main point. And, yes, just who is that 'average' reader? Like Hollywood, they do tend to assume we are brain dead out here.
Patg


message 38: by Harold (new)

Harold Titus (haroldtitus) | 26 comments Patricia wrote: "Harold, Oregon coast, I think I know that publisher. And you are right, but it's all publishers, bottom line and sales are the main point. And, yes, just who is that 'average' reader? Like Hollywoo..."

True that.


message 39: by Steven (new)

Steven Malone | 95 comments Love this discussion. I've had similar experiences. 2 Beta readers, 2 paid editors, paying Createspace for 1 proofread and a formatting.

I've still had 2 readers find a few spelling errors. A couple really got me PO'd because they were correct in my 60+ revisions. Like somehow "martial became "marshal" and it was buried deep into the book and I was too trusting to go through it an umpteenth time.

I think I will have to learn to let go.

I like what Linda said. I'm a pretty laid back reader accepting of some remaining typos. Just give me a good story well told and I'll give a pass on the errors.


message 40: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Gulley Steven, I can accept a few typos too, but it's slang in period pieces and not getting fact right that bother me. Right now I'm reading a story set in 1912 and the author has the ladies using tissues. OMG!
I won't belittle the author, somethings just don't occur to authors to check on, but that's why we do need proof readers.
Patg


message 41: by V.W. (new)

V.W. Singer | 132 comments Patricia wrote: "Steven, I can accept a few typos too, but it's slang in period pieces and not getting fact right that bother me. Right now I'm reading a story set in 1912 and the author has the ladies using tissue..."

Wouldn't that be more of a detail and research item rather than proof reading? What makes a proof reader more likely to spot an obscure anachronism than the author?

Basically when I write a historical themed novel I check every item I mention for date of introduction, and do the same for terminology, slang, and suspicious nouns. Greetings and things like OK are often missed too, along with obscenities and swear words.


message 42: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Gulley V.W. My proof reader catches those things for me and other authors I know. So, true enough about the author and her duties, but it is the kind of thing one hopes will be caught before going to press.
Patg


message 43: by V.W. (new)

V.W. Singer | 132 comments Patricia wrote: "V.W. My proof reader catches those things for me and other authors I know. So, true enough about the author and her duties, but it is the kind of thing one hopes will be caught before going to pres..."

I was just wondering where you find a proof reader who is conversant with laser technology as well as 16th century British sailing terms? Or do you have to line up a different proof reader for each genre and time period?


message 44: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Gulley V.W. I only have mystery (cozy and traditional) readers. We stick with that genre. Yes, it would be hard if I did a lot of different genres.
Patg


message 45: by V.W. (new)

V.W. Singer | 132 comments Patricia wrote: "V.W. I only have mystery (cozy and traditional) readers. We stick with that genre. Yes, it would be hard if I did a lot of different genres.
Patg"


Just to let you know, I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, but I actually do write in a wide variety of genres ranging from current day mystery to Ancient Roman slavers and SF androids, so it is something I really do need to consider when thinking of proof readers.


message 46: by Bob (new)

Bob Stockton I have found that the expense of a good, credentialed copy editor is not only worth the cost but invaluable as it gives the reader confidence that he/she is reading a well put together book. As for tissues in a period piece I don't believe that that is editorial but rather a research oversight.


message 47: by S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

S. Rivera (sjacksonrivera) | 28 comments I am a pretty good proofreader, I think, but I do NOT see errors in my own writing. After reading it 100 times--cut and paste this sentence here, move that paragraph there, I start to only see what it is supposed to say and not what it does.

I've been burned by what I thought was a reputable editing company when I went live on a manuscript with 234 errors or typos. I learned you not only have to get a good recommendation, but you need to trust the recommending person as well. I'm happy to have a top-notch editor now, thank goodness.

I see too many traditionally published authors moving away from that and going the self-publishing route. I am happy and proud to be doing this on my own. My greatest weakness is marketing, but I remind myself, I write for me, not for the fame of that potential break-out hit. I almost think I'd freak out a bit if that ever did happen.


message 48: by Annie (new)

Annie Carlisle (anniecarlisle) | 13 comments I'm so new to being an author that I'm not sure I should speak on this, but...I found (what I call) a good editor on Fiverr. I didn't pay very much (about $150.00 for my 112K word novel) and I've only found 2 tense errors. The editor I chose I found a recommendation for her in a book I was reading about self publishing and I've been very pleased.
I think that it matters who you choose for your genre, audience, and your writing style. I'm glad I went small as I work full time and I couldn't afford a "professional" editor.
But like I said...I super new at all this. I love reading everyone's take on things. I've learned so much. Thank you for all your advice and thoughts

Annie


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