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Sylvia's Lovers
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Sylvia's Lovers by Elizabeth Gaskell 1: chapters 1-14 (hosted by Claudia)
Sue: So many reasons to keep reading. Gaskell knows how to keep her readers engaged.Yes, she does!
Kathleen wrote: "I’m a little stunned at how obvious Glaskell is in her dislike of, shall we say, the peasants. She makes direct reference to the “lower class”, or “lad of this class” and the “poorer class”, in a v..."I did not feel it quite like that, Kathleen.
First and foremost, Elizabeth Gaskell would not have written this book set in a rural background and taken great pains in conveying so many details about farm life and their frugal way of life and their dialect. When in Whitby, she walked much and met many people including farmers near Sunderland (one such farm inspired her Haytersbank) and was interested in their way of life and their concerns. We see this more exactly in chapter 8 when she mentions the farmers' insufficient stock of hay or straw and half-starved horses, and cows being slaughtered before winter for lack of hay supplies (no large storage facilities back then).
She would not have written Mary Barton and North and South featuring working classes and their difficulties. On the contrary, she helped those in need in Manchester whenever she could, as her biographers and many archives testify.
Society was very compartmentalised back then (in the Victorian era and before) and such phrases do not necessarily express Mrs Gaskell's views, but more the general zeitgeist.
For instance, "Newcastle Bess" was considered belonging "to the lower classes" because everyone said so, not because the writer despised those who lived near the staithes in Whitby.
Claudia wrote: "History of Sylvia’s LoversOn 2 November 1859, Elizabeth Gaskell, now 49, and her daughters Meta (Margaret-Emily), 22 and Julia, 13, arrive in Whitby, a whaling port on the North Sea coast of York..."
This was inspirational, to see a woman continue on to write and publish her stories, even though there were so many hardships and distractions. Strong personality.
Chapter 9 – The Specksioneer[Note : the title of the chapter was the first title of Elizabeth Gaskell’s manuscript but was judged unpronounceable by her publishers, so that she had to suggest others]
Kinraid visits the Robsons at Haytersbank. The family and their guest are gathered in a room lit by a fire and a candle. The conversation between Mr Robson and Charley revolves around alcoholic drinks and, logically, smuggled goods and smuggling skills and tales of smugglers. Then they talk about whaling.
Kinraid tells of his Arctic voyages, but also of his strange experience in the South Seas on board an American whaling ship and its strange, obsessive captain.
Robson tells of his own whaling experiences years earlier, before he married Bell. In particular, he tells of his ride on the back of a whale. The story is already known to Bell, as he told it during their courtship twenty-four years earlier. Daniel was himself a specksioneer on board the Aimwell of Whitby, and spent a season anchored off the coast of Greenland.
Sylvia is enthralled by Kinraid's stories, while Bell seems less gullible, as this seems to have been part of her husband’s courtship tricks years before. Daniel, exhilarated after a few drinks, drops one of his innocent jokes, suggesting that exciting whaling stories might help Kinraid win Sylvia's heart. Kinraid instinctively looks at the young girl, who blushes. Bell is clearly annoyed by this innuendo and begins to make an "almost unhospitable" gesture to dismiss her guest. She suddenly fears that Kinraid and Sylvia have "fallen for each other". Daniel does not react as he would if he had not had a few drinks and invites Kinraid to visit again before he leaves for Newcastle, "to hear some more of the old man's yarns".
Sylvia goes to bed and dreams of "burning volcanoes rising from the icy seas of the south". The next day, in between some of her agricultural chores, she sits in her favourite spot on the cliff and is mesmerised by the seascape beyond the horizon.
Travel storiesWe are given four examples of extraordinary and adventurous travel stories - whaling campaigns where the sailors face obstacles and difficulties. Icebergs, icy waters and budding whales in the Arctic, strange tales of volcanoes in the icy southern seas, an apparently monomaniacal American captain. Mr Robson enthusiastically tells how he once (upon a time) rode a whale. These stories teeter on the edge of wonderful and slightly terrifying experiences on the edge of danger.
These are the tales of ice and fire that fascinated Sylvia, who was now impressed by all things maritime, but these accounts obviously left Bell undeterred.
Elizabeth Gaskell borrowed some of these stories from the writings of William Scoresby and from the book of Rev. Young, who mentioned a tale of riding a whale in the old days. The whaling ship Aimwell went on the Greenland campaigns and brought back thirty whales to Whitby, its home port.
Moby-Dick or, The Whale might be also a clear subtext, as those who have read it will recognise something of Captain Ahab in Kinraid's story of his campaign aboard an American ship.
These sailor tales, valuable memories, are passed down from generation to generation, the story of a journey, a real-life experience, a story that captivates because it is told with force, a story that helps us grow up, build ourselves and live. The stories, real or embellished, of Kinraid and Daniel Robson, are listened to with attention, even wonder, by Sylvia and her mother.
There are tales born of Kinraid's and Robson's experience, competing tales embroidered with the imaginary and the fantastic, Robson riding a whale that drags him into the icy sea, Kinraid discovering devils dancing in the fire burning at the bottom of an iceberg crevasse. Superstition of great travellers, optical illusions? Tales told a thousand times, repeated a thousand times and embellished a thousand times by the enthusiasm conferred by the passage of time. Tales that captivate and impress and win over audiences thirsty for dreams.
These are also tales of timeless dangers, heroic myths with a resurrecting power, as Kinraid embodies fire as well as icy seas. Daniel’s vision of ice and cold is opposed to Kinraid’s vision of heat, but both men are equally survivors of former dangers. These tales immediately bring the room, suddenly full of light and warmth, into a bursting life.
Sylvia and BellSylvia is very different from her mother. Both women are now spectators, in the background but still a useful audience for the storytellers.
Unlike her husband, Mrs Robson is taciturn and measured in her words. She internalises much of what goes on around her and seems to carry a burden within her, be it from her background or possible past frustrations. She seems to mistrust some of the veracity of the sailors' stories she listens to. Are the storytellers - first and foremost her husband, but perhaps also the newcomer Kinraid, who may just be a younger version of Mr Robson - reliable, or are they just exaggerating or adding some unbelievable details? Bell is also secretly annoyed by the possibility of a romantic relationship between her daughter and the harpooner.
Sylvia is fascinated by Kinraid's accounts and becomes suddenly a good listener to her father's stories. She is also portrayed as being closer to her father and very different from her mother and Philip Hepburn. She seems to be experiencing these adventures vicariously, while living an 'ordinary' life of habits, customs and necessities in what we might almost call 'the middle of nowhere', a place bound by moorland, cliffs and the sea.
A Romance ahead?Kinraid wakes up a fire when he enters the main room at Haytersbank Farm.
"To Sylvia the sudden change into brightness and bustle occasioned by the entrance of her father and the specksioneer was like that which you may effect any winter's night, when you come into a room where a great lump of coal lies hot and slumbering on the fire; just break it up with a judicious blow from the poker, and the room, late so dark, and dusk, and lone, is full of life, and light, and warmth."
There was an interesting passage - it sounds now like a leitmotiv - about Sylvia coming out of the shadows of a room dimly lit by a fire and a candle when she visited Moss Brow (chapter 8) and, in this chapter, about Kinraid watching Sylvia come out of the shadows into the light and back into the shadows.
Sylvia is fascinated by Kinraid's stories because she is fascinated by Kinraid himself. The Specksioneer has been her hero even unconsciously at first, since he was first mentioned by Molly Corney. She is attracted by his heroic deeds, but also by something, still unclear, that borders on passion, even transgressive masculinity (knives, killing, sickle, whaling stories) in him. He literally embodies fire as well as sea, which also can be seen in his tale of visions of heat and red and yellow flames behind a great wall of ice. "His stories have a sexual spell on Sylvia", observed Jenny Uglow.
She blushes under his gaze, trying to hide her epidermal feelings. Kinraid has noticed her beauty, but also, perhaps unconsciously, the awakening of her sexuality after she has just emerged from childhood ("innocent blooming childlike face" - chapter 6) to a blushing and emotional maidenhood.
Dr Diane Duffy, one of Elizabeth Gaskell's experts, mentioned that "there is something Othello-like about the way Kinraid comes out of the sea to woo Sylvia with his feats of bravery and his travellers’ tales”.
The SeaLike a silhouette in a painting by Caspar David Friedrich, Sylvia watches the ocean from the cliffs. The sea is the source of her imagination, a thirst for somewhere or something else, exciting events in a community where life has remained unchanged.
But, as in Dickens' novels, the sea brings death to the small town: Darley, killed aboard the Good Fortune, or the press gangs hidden on tenders that suddenly arrive from the sea to seize able-bodied men for the war, fathers, husbands, sons, perhaps doomed to a fatal outcome.
This is why another vignette frequently appears: the rumour of waves crashing against the cliffs below, penetrating even into the closed and apparently sheltered universe of Haytersbank farm and parlour in the evening.
What a wonderful chapter brimming with stories within the story, full of icebergs, fire and big whales!I am looking forward to your comments until we read chapter 10 tomorrow 18 April.
Claudia wrote: "Thanks for your great comments Peter and Sue and everyone above!Let's go on!"
I am late to join this one and only up to the end of the red-cloak-purchasing chapter, but enjoying the comments! It's intriguing to me that people are mostly at this point seeing things as a Hester-Sylvia comparison, and Molly has kind of dropped out of the picture? I'm curious to see whether that will hold up.
Philip sounds like bad news so far. Dull and simultaneously attracted to Sylvia but also looking down on her. He will make her miserable if he gets a chance, I expect.
I loved reading the exciting tales told by Kinraid and Mr Robson about their experiences. While they were probably embellishing their tales, there was real danger involved in whaling. Sylvia is obviously attracted to the heroic, virile Kinraid. Perhaps Mrs Robson recognizes her own past reactions when Mr Robson told his tales as they were courting, and sees how attracted Sylvia is to Kinraid.Mrs Robson wants someone more stable for Sylvia. Kinraid will be gone on long journeys, and he has such a dangerous job that he might not return. He is the type of man who craves adventure and will also be attractive to other women. Sylvia is falling in love, but her mother only sees trouble.
Mod
This was a fantastic chapter and I couldn’t help realizing that Mrs. Gaskell is writing this novel in the same period as Wilkie Collins is rewriting his arctic play, The Frozen Deep. There was a huge amount of admiration and excitement and appreciation and fascination for those who took these trips to the arctic. The Victorians were enamored with it. This would have been a fantastically successful chapter then and it also gives a different perspective than those who went searching for the Northwest Passage. The whaling aspect gives so much awe and excitement to the stories.
And Daniel Robson had some funny lines - tickling the whale was great! He couldn’t be outdone so he had to tell a bigger and better story!
Connie: indeed Mrs Robson may have a feeling of déjà vu, and she would certainly prefer a steadier suitor for her daughter!Jean: yes, travels are one of the most important themes here!
Lori: thank you for this great information about Wilkie Collins and The Frozen Deep! I can understand that there was a fascination for those Arctic voyages. "The great deep" comes up at least twice in the text (like in Isaiah 51:10 and in Genesis 7:11 "the fountains of the great deep").
Nice tie in, Lori. I had not thought of the Collins. I keep having flashbacks to Moby Dick, which Claudia has confirmed was an influence.I feel I should like Phillip for Sylvia because he is stable, wanted by her mother, closely tied to family, responsible, educated...BUT, I don't like him at all. He is pedantic, possessive, too somber, jealous. He will not make her happy. I think a few happy months between voyages with a man like Kinraid might be worth a lifetime of being tied down to a Phillip.
Mod
(The ongoing links for it, to avoid spoilers, are in comment 6.)
Lori wrote: "This was a fantastic chapter and I couldn’t help realizing that Mrs. Gaskell is writing this novel in the same period as Wilkie Collins is rewriting his arctic play, The Frozen Deep...."Lori
I’m glad you mentioned the ill-fated Franklin expedition to find the Northwest Passage. The loss of Franklin and his two ships weighted heavily on the shoulders of Britain’s navy and country’s people. About twenty years separates the Franklin Expedition and the publication of this novel. Franklin was never forgotten. Lady Franklin saw to that. I’m a bit surprised Gaskell doesn’t mention it more prominently but presume wild adventures of whaling, set to a backdrop of Melville’s ‘Moby Dick’ fit into the plot better.
Kinraid’s stories have certainly set Sylvia’s emotions on high. I’m sure she thinks about the worlds that Kincaid has seen and survived and, when weighing them against Philip’s interior world of shops, business and reading, imagines two different scenarios going forward. One is the interior world - both literally and symbolically - represented by Philip, and an exterior world life represented by Kincaid.Mrs Robson has experience and sees the world from her present and back into her past. Sylvia sees only forward. Perhaps our reference to Little Red Riding Hood can be re-introduced. Like Sylvia, LRRH went out into the forest by herself. She sought a newer world. As we were reminded in an early posting by Claudia, Sylvia’s name derives from the word meaning forest.
There is more than one version (and ending) to this classic tale. It will be interesting to discover what version (if any) Gaskell employs.
I've been noticing how often the narrator breaks into the story, usually during the first paragraph of a chapter to remind us that the story is set 60-70 years in the past, and the reader should adjust their mindset. In Chapter IX, ". . . and it was much more the case at the period of my story, when candles were far dearer than they are at present, and when one was often made to suffice for a large family." In Chapter IV, "Sixty or seventy years ago (not to speak of much later times) the farmers who owned or hired the land which lay directly on the summit of these cliffs were smugglers . . ." In Chapter III, "These openings had long been filled with panes of glass that at the present day would be accounted very small, but which seventy years ago were much admired for their size." Chapter II starts "One hot day, early in October of the year 1796. . ." and Chapter I says it's "the end of the last century."Claudia, do you know whether Gaskell originally considered publishing this as a serial publication since she repeats the dates so often, and there would be time between issues?
Connie: Excellent! The novel was not meant to be published in installments but in three volumes all at once. She wrote between April 1860 and January 1863, but with breaks as I wrote in my preliminary notes above in my very first post.Yet your detailed and accurate comment hits something very important: it shows that the whole novel itself is a story set in the past, consistent with the stories from the past narrated to Elizabeth Gaskell while she was staying in Whitby.
The narrative voice has a sort of distance, or tries, repeatedly, as the passages you mentioned do confirm (good catches!) to have a sort of distance to what she is narrating. We have already seen some instances of stories within the story, but your comment reminded me that the novel itself is a story from the past. Moreover, the narrator implies and alludes sometimes that much has changed in the meantime: the economic frame, infrastructure, people's way of life, habits.
As I wrote earlier, while commenting chapter 1, many details like some of those you mentioned will eventually make sense!
Peter: great comments. Indoors Vs outdoors corroborates the "fusion of extension and closeness" mentioned by Jenny Uglow.Little Red Riding Hood: Two versions: Charles Perrault and the Grimm Brothers in two versions by Charles Perrault and Grimm Brothers belongs to Western culture and heritage so that it is impossible for me and perhaps anyone to say which version Mrs Gaskell had in mind! Indeed the allegory of a forest enhances the notion of venturing into unmapped territories, between exploration, fascination and dangers.
Chapter 10 – A refractory pupilAt her next lesson with Philip, Sylvia is still "full of Kinraid and his stories" and shares one with her cousin, who listens patiently. Once again concentrating on geography and Greenland, she is "in a very rebellious frame of mind".
Bell dreams that Sylvia will be as educated as her grandparents and that she will revive the Preston family before they lose their estate. Bell has pinned all her ambitions on her daughter.
Sylvia is now more attentive, and Philip tries to keep her interested, until she suddenly 'passed out of his power'. Indeed, Kinraid turns up and is warmly welcomed by Daniel Robson. Philip is annoyed that Kinraid seems to be a regular guest at Haytersbank, with everyone's attention focused on him.
Philip is "maliciously pleased" when his aunt makes noise while preparing supper, preventing Sylvia from overhearing Kinraid's conversation with her father on the other side of the fireplace. Philip manages to speak privately to Bell, sharing his dislike of Kinraid, but Bell encourages him to remain calm as he will always be welcome with her. Philip does not leave, wanting to show Kinraid that he is at home with the Robsons.
Sylvia helps prepare dinner and roasts some oatcakes on the fire so that she can have some "little merry speeches" with Kinraid. Eventually Charley leaves, not without whispering a few words in Sylvia's ear. Philip is annoyed and, seeing Sylvia's reluctance to continue the lesson, decides to stop teaching her and picks up his books. Sylvia feels a tinge of sadness and regret and admits that it is not easy to teach her. Philip, offended and proud, stands by his decision and leaves the farm.
A few days later, Mr Robson tells his wife and daughter that he has incidentally met Kinraid but failed to greet them for him. He apologised for not having time to say goodbye before leaving for Newcastle. Sylvia is very disappointed but decides to put him out of her mind.
"He had gone away out of her sight into the thick mist of unseen life from which he had emerged—gone away without a word, and she might never see him again."
She supposes that Kinraid will come back to Monkshaven and marry Molly Corney and that she will be Molly’s bridesmaid and have a lot of fun. She feels Mrs Corney is so unlike her own mother. She suddenly feels a pang of culpability and decides to ask Philip to come over again to Haytersbank and teach her for her mother’s sake.
Philip comes to Haytersbank day in, day out, whatever the weather looks like, and patiently teaches Sylvia. He enjoys sitting with her and listening to her progress. He has noticed how tall and beautiful Sylvia has grown in the past months. He appreciates that she is now more disciplined and focused on learning.
Molly Corney turns up one day before spring break. She is amazed at how pretty Sylvia has become since they last saw each other. Molly has been away visiting some relatives up north and she tells her friend about her impending marriage. Sylvia supposes she is about to marry Charley Kinraid, but Molly informs her that she will marry a “canny shopkeeper” in Newcastle, a forty-year-old widower with a child. Molly Corney jokingly hints that Kinraid is still available to Sylvia. Indeed, he has repeatedly told his cousin that Sylvia is going to be a pretty woman.
Bell does not approve of Molly’s jokes at all and finds her rather vulgar and opportunistic.
Philip HepburnIn this chapter, we are now seeing Philip clearly in opposition to Kinraid in a closed-door meeting, in a tense atmosphere at Haytersbank.
We do not know much about Philip Hepburn, excepted that he is a sales assistant at Fosters’, lives as a tenant in Mrs Rose’s house and is Bell Robson’s nephew. He lives in a Quaker environment, and although he is not a Friend himself, he has appropriated something of the simplicity and austerity (back then) of the Quaker way.
Philip is eminently awkward, yet he seems to have an enormous amount to say, buried deep inside him, no doubt repressed by his physical complexes, a perhaps unattractive physique. He is apparently insignificant, a tall, stooped and pale figure. He only seems to flourish - and this word may be an exaggeration as far as Philip is concerned - in his work and his quiet, barely noticeable ambition, which he builds step by step, patiently and relentlessly. The Philip we have seen living so far, working and evolving before our eyes is a seemingly smooth, uneventful, rather monotonous young man.
There seems to be also some suffering in him, when he decides not to hometeach Sylvia after Kinraid has gone out: "Something in his tone struck her, and she looked up in his face. There were marks of stern offence upon his countenance, and yet in it there was also an air of wistful regret and sadness that touched her."
He is obviously in love with his cousin Sylvia, who obviously does not want him. He persists in finding pretexts to be with her during his countless visits to Haytersbank Farm. When he lectures Sylvia, he puts her down as if he wished to tame the wildness of this beautiful, capricious, sensual, wandering girl.
Philip's mission, teaching Sylvia to read and write, is revealing: he wants to mould her, to be a tutor for her, a teacher who influences her. He wants to be a Pygmalion, the one who gives her a notebook, a blank page to write on. But since Sylvia cannot write, she cannot write her own story either. The first word he teaches her to read and write is ‘Abednego’. But we can argue about the educational relevance of this and its immediate application to a young girl whose concerns are concrete, in terms of her daily work and her aspirations. Philip does not know how to pass on or share his knowledge, which for her remains abstract and arid, if not artificial and limiting.
He is mostly self-controlled and patient, excepted in this chapter, when Kinraid enters: "He angrily stiffened himself into coldness of demeanour". He can barely hide his irritation and frustration ("that sailor chap, not fit to be where Sylvia is", "that fellow", etc.) and needs his aunt’s comfort and encouragement. He clearly feels rejected in the shadows, "uncomfortable, put out", "suspicious".
Thank you all for your comments, past and future. We are dealing with a novel with more density than it may first appear, and your contributions are very helpful!We will be reading chapter 11 on Sunday 20 April!
I want to throw this out there before I comment on the latest chapter. It may be my imagination, but it seems to me Gaskell is perhaps paying homage (and maybe poking a little fun as well,) at some of her fellow authors at times in these first few chapters, at least the male authors. (I don't think I have read enough to catch comparisons to female author's works though some of you may do better.) For example, the second and third chapters have a lot of Walter Scott about them and we've already noted the Red Riding Hood and Moby Dick comparisons, but what got my attention was the purple prose description of "the mouth of hell," in the crevasse between the walls of ice. The prose in this could have been lifted straight out of The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket by Edgar Allan Poe, and I mention it because it is so strikingly similar to Poe's prose, and so dissimilar to what we usually get from Gaskell. One reason I think it may be Gaskell having some fun with her readers at the expense of other authors is her tone. Note the comment Bell makes about Daniel and Kincaid, referring to Sylvia's gullibility, "...for they had both been taking her in with their stories which she had been foolish enough to believe." This comment could be equally applied to the believability of the stories of Melville and Poe. I do not feel Gaskell's is being overly critical of the other authors' work but do see her having fun with this. There may be a more serious criticism aimed at the romance and romantic hero or more specifically the Byronic hero traits evidenced in Kincaid. That we are yet to see.
I think most of us have had a negative view of Philip up until chapter ten. Gaskell presents him a little more sympathetically here. He is still no match for Kincaid and doubt he has a chance with Sylvia, but he is given some dignity in this chapter I think. Gaskell is so clever in how she does things.
Sam I trust your American literature heritage allows you to identify some interesting subtext here. Many readers who had read Moby (I have read it two or three years ago) see some connections. I think the passages you mentioned are Mrs Gaskell's nod to those writers.Yes, Philip is not quite likeable at first sight but Elizabeth Gaskell skilfully added more depth to him especially in some passages in this chapter. Wait and see!
Connie wrote: "Sylvia is obviously attracted to the heroic, virile Kinraid. Perhaps Mrs Robson recognizes her own past reactions when Mr Robson told his tales as they were courting, and sees how attracted Sylvia is to Kinraid.Sylvia is falling in love, but her mother only sees trouble...."
I agree, Connie. Sylvia seems more "in lust" than "in love". She knows nothing of Kincaid except his swashbuckling stories.
The stories are so adventurous compared to her quiet farm life. They are quite the attraction for her.
Mrs. Robson has been through this feeling already and wants to save Sylvia the hardship of such a life.
Connie wrote: "I've been noticing how often the narrator breaks into the story, usually during the first paragraph of a chapter to remind us that the story is set 60-70 years in the past, and the reader should adjust their mindset...."I like this aspect of the story. It reminds me that Sylvia's story is being told (probably) after her death, after she's led her life. It makes the story seem like another story....a history. I wonder if we'll find out who the narrator is.
I also am not drawn to Philip. He seems quite rigid in his ways and not a lot of fun. He seems wrong for Sylvia, but so does Kincaid, I think. One is too somber, the other too glib. He's told Sylvia nothing about hinself but those adventurous stories.....which may be exaggerated to draw in the women he's attracted to. It'll be interesting to see how things progress.
I agree, Petra. I think Kinraid could be real trouble, but I think Syliva would die a slow and boring death with Philip and feel she had never had a life at all. The fact that she is a bit repulsed by him is a factor that cannot be ignored.
Sara, agreed. Philip just seems wrong for her. But so does Kincaid. I have faith that Gaskell will find the perfect lover for Sylvia.
Any thoughts on Molly's choice? She seems to have a more laid back look at life, in general. Her goal is purely financial at this point, but perhaps (and hopefully) she'll find peace and happiness with her husband.
She may just be happy with a house of her own, without a lot of kids running around.
Molly makes me think of Charlotte Lucas in P&P. She is a much more practical girl and she will make her own happiness because she will not demand more of life than it offers her. She also admired her cousin, Charley, but I think she has a realistic view of him and knows he would not be good husband material, so she wrote him off as a romantic interest.
Sara wrote: "Molly makes me think of Charlotte Lucas in P&P. She is a much more practical girl and she will make her own happiness because she will not demand more of life than it offers her. She also admired h..."I was thinking of this, too! And I was also thinking earlier of Charlotte's position that it really doesn't matter who you marry because you won't figure out whether you're actually a good match until after the marriage, whether you think you're in love at the start or not. It is always striking to me how little many 19th century couples knew each other before marrying, since there were so many restrictions on their interaction then. It makes me feel sympathetic to Bell, wanting her daughter to make a safe choice in Philip, her nephew she's know since birth.
But I agree with everyone that Philip would be a bad choice. I keep coming back to the fact that he doesn't really even seem to like Sylvia--the Pygmalion thing that Claudia mentioned. He wants to train her into being someone she's not.
(Finally caught up, and enjoying all the comments!)
Petra wrote: "I agree, Connie. Sylvia seems more "in lust" than "in love". She knows nothing of Kincaid except his swashbuckling stories."While I tend to agree with this, I also wonder if there's more to it than that. I think Sylvia wants to be Charley, or at least be someone who can go off to the sea adventuring. She loves listening to the sea, and she loves hearing stories of adventure, and the only school subject that interests her is geography.
Is she entranced by the sea stories because she longs for Charley, or is she entranced by Charley because she longs for the sea? Maybe something of both.
Julie wrote: "Petra wrote: "I agree, Connie. Sylvia seems more "in lust" than "in love". She knows nothing of Kincaid except his swashbuckling stories."While I tend to agree with this, I also wonder if there's..."
I agree with you Julie! (Great that you caught up!)
Sylvia longs for Charley and everything he embodies, sea stories, a daredevil, etc. Longing for Charley is a mean to go far away, by proxy, from her closed, secluded world of habits, usances, from a perhaps dull future with Philip. Being a woman in the Georgian era especially in those uncertain times did not allow much fantasy.
Petra wrote: "Connie wrote: "Sylvia is obviously attracted to the heroic, virile Kinraid. Perhaps Mrs Robson recognizes her own past reactions when Mr Robson told his tales as they were courting, and sees how at..."Great phrases Petra! "In lust" may well be the right phrase applied to Sylvia's feelings for Charley, even if there is an additional and substantial part of dream in it.
Julie, I agree that it is both. Sylvia is like her father in wanting a taste of adventure. She can live vicariously when she hears Charley's stories. She might not have the opportunity to go to sea since she's a woman, but even traveling beyond the farm would expand her horizons.
Chapter 11 – Visions of the futureMolly Corney is newlywed and, as expected, Sylvia was her bridesmaid. Yet, Sylvia is feeling that the two friends have drifted apart and she – and her mother - will not miss Molly.
Everyone in and around Monkshaven notices Sylvia's growing beauty and all the men seem to be attracted to her.
Bell Robson is worried about this at the market when many people come to buy butter or eggs just to see Sylvia. Philip dashes out of Foster's just to see her and pay her a compliment, which seems to upset her, while Hester Rose, who is perceptive and observant, watches them from the shop and, glancing at her own reflection in the mirror, finds herself dull compared to the cheerful and outgoing Sylvia. Is Sylvia aware of her charm? She sometimes seems to simper, or to strike poses whenever she feels she is being watched, as in the incident when Philip visits her at the market stall, where she decorates her hat with field flowers and then rips them off and tramples them underfoot, like a spoilt child.
More worryingly, some men visit Hayterbank on various pretexts, or to buy fleece or calves, because they are attracted to Sylvia. This makes Bell uneasy, as she is keeping an eye all the time on her daughter.
Daniel Robson notices that Sylvia’s appeal is an asset in his various transactions or interactions and asks his daughter to accompany him not only to the wider farmland, but also on errands in town. Is he conscious of exposing her to the concupiscent glances of rough or tipsy men? Mrs Robson reluctantly allows this, as having Sylvia with Daniel when he goes to the pub also prevents him from drinking too much, as he would do if he were left alone.
One Sunday, Philip visits his aunt as usual and reports an embarrassing incident that has just occurred on a feast day in a public house. He has a long conversation with Bell, who instructs him to watch Sylvia's every move as closely as possible and to help her keep away from dubious young men like Ned Simpson, the butcher.
Meanwhile, Sylvia returns from a walk in the fields with her father and Ned and shares a moment of rapprochement with Philip in a short aparté about Ned's clumsiness, which she disapproves of. Sylvia is relieved to have Philip's company and escape Ned's "coarse country compliments".
Bell accompanies Philip at the door and asks him again to keep an eye on Sylvia, forgetting what she said earlier about Philip being too old-fashioned for her daughter.
Philip goes home, secretly overjoyed, and makes plans for a bright future with Sylvia.
Philip Hepburn againPhilip Hepburn is now very quickly emerging as a central character, (view spoiler). Mrs Gaskell is not only giving a male protagonist undeniable depth but also making him very present and believable to the reader. The narrative is now taking hold of his psyche through skilful free indirect discourse and a thorough examination of his thoughts.
Philip Hepburn is, at first sight, far from appearing nice to many readers. There is something devious and disturbing about him. His disapproving, penetrating, inquisitive gaze falls on the woman he insists on calling Sylvie. But he has the backing of his aunt, who sees him as 'the flesh of her flesh', a substitute for the son she has lost. Tasked with keeping an eye on Sylvia, he is given a mission of control, of constant observation, but, as Bell points out, of watching over her as a brother would watch over his sister.
We sense a propensity for the petty exactitude of an old boy, of course in perfect contrast with Kinraid who seems more relaxed and at ease in social situations. More worryingly, we sense that Philip’s mission would fit with his tendency of obsessiveness. He has been focused on Sylvia for quite a time – we learn that she came over to Haytersbank a couple of years earlier – and he is very much attentive on every detail concerning her. When in her presence, he seems to be staring at every move of her, while his dashing “hatless” out of the shop to talk to his cousin on her market stall is unreasoned and betrays the same obsession.
Philip, like his Aunt Bell, is burdened with untold troubles, most likely from the past, problems linked to the family's downgrading one or two generations earlier. Not only is he dependent on Sylvia's every mood swing, but he also needs his aunt's approval and encouragement. We know, from Hester’s reflections, that he was much devoted to his late mother. His aunt is most likely a mother substitute for him.
He sees Sylvia as an inaccessible goddess. The best textual evidence of this is the thorough and idealised description of Sylvia going down from the first floor:
“…first, the little pointed toe came daintily in sight, then the trim ankle in the tight blue stocking, the wool of which was spun and the web of which was knitted by her mother's careful hands; then the full brown stuff petticoat, the arm holding the petticoat back in decent folds, so as not to encumber the descending feet; the slender neck and shoulders hidden under the folded square of fresh white muslin; the crowning beauty of the soft innocent face radiant in colour, and with the light brown curls clustering around.”
Hester RoseHester is the perfect opposite of Sylvia, often described as a foil for her. She is discreet, careful, pious and docile with little inclination for outbursts or spectacular initiatives. She is very observant and instantly understands the ins and outs of a situation. She is a devoted colleague and professionally reliable to Philip whom she secretly loves, or perhaps even idolizes. Looking at herself in a mirror in a corner of the drapery shop, she feels frustrated.
“Hester, half-ashamed, stole into this corner, and looked at herself in the glass. What did she see? (....) This was what she had to compare with the bright bonny face in the sunlight outside.”
The most revealing passage about the alchemy of relationships around Philip is, in my opinion, as follows:
"Hester looked upon Philip as the best and most agreeable man she had ever known. He was not one to speak of himself without being questioned on the subject, so his Haytersbank relations, only come into the neighborhood in the last year or two, knew nothing of the trials he had surmounted, or the difficult duties he had performed. His aunt, indeed, had strong faith in him, both from partial knowledge of his character, and because he was of her own tribe and kin; but she had never learnt the small details of his past life. Sylvia respected him as her mother's friend, and treated him tolerably well as long as he preserved his usual self-restraint of demeanour, but hardly ever thought of him when he was absent."
May her inclination to Philip be called love, according to her own opinion?
“She had not thought of love on either side. Love was a vanity, a worldliness not to be spoken about, or even thought about. Once or twice before the Robsons came into the neighbourhood, an idea had crossed her mind that possibly the quiet, habitual way in which she and Philip lived together, might drift them into matrimony at some distant period; and she could not bear the humble advances which Coulson, Philip's fellow-lodger, sometimes made. They seemed to disgust her with him”.
Unmoved by the timid attempts of Hester, insensitive to her almost imperceptible blushing, Philip does not encourage a closer relationship between them, while she is upset by William’s “humble advances”.
Hi everyone!Thanks a lot for your wonderful comments and discussion of Sylvia's two putative lovers!
I am posting much earlier than expected - we have tempestuous winds once again and I prefer to avoid being stuck with a power or/and Internet failure and not able to post.
This gives you plenty of time for comments until Monday 21 April and the long chapter 12!
Happy Easter to all!
Jeanne Baret, a little extra side-post(An example of a female traveller in the 18th century, there might be some others - as we have discussed the difficulty or even the impossibility for women to sail independently.)
Just a few words on a ship traveler who disguised as a man, sailed onboard of La Boudeuse and l'Etoile in the prestigious expedition of Bougainville around the world in 1766-1769.
She was the first woman to do so, although she came from a village in Burgundy and the only child of farmers (just like our Sylvia) and helped her parents in the farm.
Here is an interesting post from a school of agriculture as Jeanne helped botanist Philibert Commerson.
https://www.lyceehorticulture93.fr/in...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeann...
Reading about Jeanne Baret was a total joy, Claudia. Thank you.I also think much of Kinraid's appeal is tied to Sylvia's own desire to have adventures. We're she a man, she would be readying herself for the sea to follow in her father's footsteps. She has been raised on his tales and no doubt believes the traits a man should have are those that come with the seaman's life: courage, resilience and a large dose of risk-taking.
Claudia wrote: "Philip Hepburn againPhilip Hepburn is now very quickly emerging as a central character, [spoilers removed]. Mrs Gaskell is not only giving a male protagonist undeniable depth but also making him ..."
Thanks Claudia
You have pointed us to the clearest use of description yet in the novel. The manner in which Gaskell slowly unveils Sylvia is a wonderful piece of writing and chock full of symbolism.
If we abstract all the individual colours used to describe Sylvia there is so much that can be referred back to in the story. Eg. Where and when and how the colour blue has been attached to Sylvia.
Claudia, thanks for the story of Jeanne Baret. It's incredible what women had to go through to find the lives they hoped to lead. I'm glad Jeanne had that opportunity.
Sara, that's an interesting thought. It hadn't occurred to me that Sylvia might want to go to sea herself. I'll think on this and keep it in mind as we go forward.
I thought Chapter 11 was a sort of "pause" chapter where the characters age and time passes but Life is calm. It gives me the feeling that something big will happen soo. Sylvia is growing up & maturing; she's becoming a pretty woman who turns heads. Being pretty isn't always an asset in these stories. I'm curious to know what the future holds for her.
Philip seems to be maturing into a rigid, narrow type of person. He's got ideas of how things should be and wants them to be just that and nothing more. It could be a control issue where he wants to control his surroundings. I'm not sure.
He's not the right man for Sylvia and the narrower he becomes, the less he's for her.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Nanette and Her Lovers: A Tale of Normandy (other topics)Mary Barton: A Tale of Manchester Life (other topics)
Cranford (other topics)
Ruth (other topics)
North and South (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Hardy (other topics)Elizabeth Gaskell (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Edgar Allan Poe (other topics)
Charles Perrault (other topics)
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I especially appreciated the information on Abednego. That's a new story to me. And fits into our story quite well, I think. Trying time..."
Thank you Petra!