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Roman Clodia
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Mar 01, 2025 07:47AM
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I'm watching it now, the one with Trump dancing - poor Sinead O'Connor. Some tantalising shorts trailing the next series too.
And you're right R, C. it's very funny and a nice reminder of the relatable America. But some of the clips - Vance defending the eating-the-dogs story by saying he was happy to make stuff up if it helped Americans understand his narrative - took me right back to Plato!
Adam Kinzinger comes across really well, I don't know much about him - so probably someone will come along and tell me why he's not likeable. But he seems someone who's speaking out in ways others aren't:https://www.abc.net.au/listen/program...
Alwynne wrote: "Adam Kinzinger comes across really well, I don't know much about him - so probably someone will come along and tell me why he's not likeable. But he seems someone who's speaking out in ways others ..."He's a Republican and as such has seemed to be on board with the idea of lowering taxes on the rich and sticking the poor with the bill, which has pretty much been core Rep. ideology at least since Reagan. It's possible he was marginally less extreme in his adherence than many of his peers--since he was representing a district in California (on the other side of the country) less about his specific legislative record. He did serve in the military for 20 years, mostly, it seems from Wikipedia, as a National Guardsman (which are basically state militias that answer both to their own governor and the Sect of Defense), and he did at least one tour in Iraq. So he's got some sense of geopolitics.
Unlike most in his party, he has stood staunchly against Trump & the MAGAs. He and Liz Cheney (a possibly even more far-right Rep. and dau. of the former VP) served on the J6 congressional committee that investigated the insurrection in 2021.
So I for one don't exactly like him (and I certainly don't like Liz) or his politics, but I appreciate that both of them have sided with American democracy and the Constitution over loyalty to Trump. Right now some of our most political leaders speaking most loudly about T's authoritarianism are Republicans. I never expected that. (I haven't seen Kinzinger on yesterday's debacle yet.)
Ben wrote: "Yes, I agree these are strategies that are used to cement alliances and to signal affinities with groups such as WCNs and other orthodox religious communities. But I think what lies at the base of ..."I think we must remember that the T coalition joins several groups that have in common the immediate goal of breaking America and instituting an authoritarian government. But what they want that government to do, and whom it should "benefit" is not compatible between the groups.
For WCN, it really is about values, not strategy. They want to force the country into an Orban style "illiberal" democracy in which women are put back in their "rightful" place in the kitchen, and white men are the only ones with access to power or meaningful economic activity. They also are virulently opposed to anything related to LGBTQ+. They limit "Christian" to their own brand of Christianity--the new office to promote religious liberty (can't remember what they're calling it) means to allow their particular far right theology to do what it wants; other religions are excluded, as are Christians who have a different understanding of the faith.
Also, while WCN has large numbers of right-leaning white evangelicals at its core, the movement includes the far right Catholics like Samuel Alito. In fact, the scholars of WCN I know have said that Alito and that brand of Catholic thinkers are the ones who put together the theoretical foundations of the movement. Oddly, there is also a Jewish component. Oddly because, well, Christian (especially that brand of Christianity) and Jewish don't seem like a comfortable fit.
Another group backing T is of course the brogliarchs. And some scholars have mentioned a 3rd group, whose identity escapes me at the moment. The brogliarchs obviously have "me first" and "more more more for me" as principle values. I also know Alwynne has talked here about the dark enlightenment ideology. I don't know much about that, so am not going to opine about those folks.
I think you also need to add in the alt-right and the manosphere. Some of whom also intersect with the belief systems espoused by the oligarchs like Thiel. And Thiel and Vance intersect in turn with the illiberal Catholics. There are links between these kinds of Christians and right-wing Zionists, remember there are many evangelical Christians settling/seeking to settle in the West Bank. And there is funding towards settlements from American Christian organisations, and has been for many years. I've even met right-wing evangelicals here who go out to Israel to support similar ventures.
The interview I posted with Kinzinger and recent articles suggest he's been gradually moving towards the centre, he's also described as a 'live and let live' thinker. I think if Trump and his crew are to be defeated it will be necessary to form broad coalitions with guys like this. He's also useful as hard to accuse him of being woke! He also comes across well on shows like HIGNFY the sort of bloke you could have a chat with in a bar.
I’ll listen to the Kinzinger article tomorrow or Monday when I expect to have both time & adequate wifi. Fair point about the other groups you mention, Alwynne. One reason I’ve been talking about WCN is the finding of PRRI that 30% of Americans fall into this category (20% as full adherents and 10% as sympathizers), but they are not distributed evenly across the country. That by itself is not news, but what was revelatory about the finding was how precisely the WCN distribution map matches the electoral map for 2024. The two are almost identical. Without them Trump would not have won. Nor would he have had all the executive orders and other game plan ready to go at noon on Jan 20.
The interesting question is what happens when the coalition cracks. I don't know. When a revolution's or coup's coalition cracks, a lot of people get hurt and killed, and the damage is not usually confined to the circle of individuals jockeying for power. Some of the people I follow are hoping that apparently unavoidable crack up will give the opposition an opportunity to wrest back our country. I'm less sanguine about that prospect, but it's possible, and I hope that it is.
What's also not certain is what elections will look like in the future, especially now that T has dismantled our cybersecurity unit. To me that was the single most alarming event of yesterday. Russia has already succeeded in its campaign of influence far beyond its wildest imaginings, and now Trump is giving free rein to Putin to cement his hold on the US. My read of Putin is that the oligarchs are who he cares about. WCN folks are useful idiots to him. I may be wrong, but that's how it looks to me. He's been very effective at manipulating the WCN people, particularly their leaders and influencers, and I see no reason why that will change.
But there is an awful lot of outrage even among very safe Republican districts now about the cuts to food aid (called SNAP), Medicaid (government funded health insurance for poor people), social security (retirement), and even the subsidies that make regular private insurance slightly more affordable for regular people. I think a lot of Republican representatives sense they are in trouble. Mike Johnson is putting up another big lie--that the protests at representatives' town halls are paid actors--and some people will certainly believe that lie, but I think it will be hard, even with Putin's aid, to persuade everyone in Rep. districts who is losing the government that made their lives bearable or even possible that their reps are working for them. At the least it will take a while.
I also agree with you that the only way to defeat Pu-Trumpism is to assemble a broad coalition. That is actually how the Republican Party came into existence in the mid-1850's. It was a broad coalition of people, many of whom had been political enemies just a year or two before, who saw the danger the country was in, and came together to oppose the danger. Later on some dropped out and others found ways to keep working together. The party itself veered between helping the rich and crafting a government for all the people over the ensuing generations, which may be partly the result of the way it came into being.
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I've always had a soft spot for this one even though it's a standalone without Poirot or Jane Marple.
I'd vaguely planned to start Shoah but Christie has won out!
Roman Clodia wrote: "If anyone needs some temporary refuge from politics, the new Agatha Christie adaptation starts tonight and on iplayer: Towards Zero. I've always had a soft spot for this one even ..."
Thanks see the whole thing's already on iplayer already. I struggled with the recent BBC Christie adaptations because they were so gruellingly downbeat. But see this one is supposed to be a little lighter in feel, so I'll definitely check it out.
Mod
No, quite the opposite, it's very dark. As usual, lots of changes have been made but it really brought out the brutality in so much Christie. The clothes are ravishing though!
If anyone's a history buff, I thought this recent interview with Josephine Quinn was fascinating. She's based at Cambridge and this discussion is based on her book How the World Made the West: A 4,000 Year Historyhttps://novaramedia.com/2025/03/02/ev...
G wrote: "Susan_MG wrote: "It’s like Christmas everyday here in America. Today’s entertainment includes the White House list of ten productivity accomplishments and a foreign affairs smack down in the Oval o..."I was so embarrassed by that "press conference". Total set-up. One of the commentators - Rice, former ambassador - said that a VP never talks in those meetings unless the Pres has told him what to say!
Roman Clodia wrote: "G wrote: "Wow. I just read about the Trump/Vance meeting with Zelenskyy"Wow, indeed - I've just watched the video on the BBC, there's also an edited 'highlights' video on the Guardian site. I've ..."
Lindsay Graham must have gotten so dizzy that day. He was all lovey-dovey after the luncheon with Zelenskyy and after the presser he hated him! Never saw anyone change so quickly or abruptly.
G wrote: "I’ll listen to the Kinzinger article tomorrow or Monday when I expect to have both time & adequate wifi. Fair point about the other groups you mention, Alwynne. One reason I’ve been talking about..."
Thanks for clarifying. And I honestly do sympathise but right now my thoughts are focused on my friends in Canada, the people of Ukraine, Greenland, and Gaza, my country and those of my fellow Europeans which are now effectively on a wartime footing. So the rather lacklustre, lowkey protests I'm seeing reported from the US are, to put it politely, rather disappointing.
Ben wrote: "Certainly Trump is looking to change our understanding of what is constitutional in the US, and he is pushing his power to the limits (and beyond) of what is legal and constitutional. But, just pla..."Resistance thus far is coming from the streets. And people are busted up about the firing of employees - especially park/forest rangers. Summer is coming and it is questionable what parks/forests will be open? Obviously state parks will be open. But I heard the other day that Rocky Mountain National Park will be closed. Now will the Great Smoky Mountain National Park be open? Or will the Blue Ridge Parkway be open? These last two have annual visitors of 12 and 14 million, respectively (that's a guesstimate).
My congressman says he will finally have a town hall meeting next week. It is even money that he will cancel. Say there's too much to do in Washington.
There are special elections in April which could change the Congress because Trump was foolish enough to pull three Congressmen for staff/offices. So the question is whether those three red districts can turn around and elect democrats.
G wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Adam Kinzinger comes across really well, I don't know much about him - so probably someone will come along and tell me why he's not likeable. But he seems someone who's speaking out..."Adam Kinzinger was a representative from Republican Central Illinois. He received the same death threats that Liz received, but various family members disowned him. He's had a book out. I didn't pick it up. But much like Liz, lost his seat, I'm not sure if he even ran again. But he has seen the light.
Jan C wrote: "I'm not sure if he even ran again. " Kinzinger didn't run. He knew he'd never defeat a Trump-backed opponent in a primary so went straight to commenting.
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It's not that I'm not taking all of this seriously - as Alwynne states, I am - but can't resist sharing the hilarious story that was on Have I Got News for You US where amidst all the firing of employees at Yosemite, they managed to get rid of the one single locksmith who had the key to the public toilets!
Jan C wrote: "Ben wrote: "Certainly Trump is looking to change our understanding of what is constitutional in the US, and he is pushing his power to the limits (and beyond) of what is legal and constitutional. B..."Your country is fast becoming an illiberal, rogue nation. Your leadership is threatening to invade Greenland, take over Canada and level Gaza. Meanwhile on X and other America-centred sites your leadership is spreading disinformation about its allies. The UK, for example, has been dubbed an 'Islamist state' riddled with no-go areas, and footage from a movie is being used to suggest that rioters are taking over our hospitals, ffs.
I'd strongly suggest that parks should be the least of your concerns! And if town hall meetings and some scattered protests are the main response over there to what's happening that suggests an astounding level of insularity.
Mod
It's difficult though, isn't it, because I'm a politics junkie and don't want to look away but for many people the way to survive is to disengage. And I know that that's exactly what Trump et al. want but for some politics is separate from 'real life' and not, as I'd see it, the most fundamental way of understanding our lives and how they're organised.
I also suspect that what is happening is so wild, so overwhelming, shooting off in so many tangents (probably deliberately) and so fast with new horrors every day that not everyone knows what to even do. This is why I was asking before about figures of resistance around whom other groups can rally. Some of us are naturally tapped into political groupings, others aren't - and if you're not, then I can understand how hard it might be to even start.
Even if you are tapped in, it's very hard to know what to do. Our country has been taken over by a cult, and many of us are still in shock that Trump was ever elected the first time. Just like in a family, do we disown the cult members or try to help them? Obviously nothing we’ve tried has worked so far, and the cult is growing. We are also grieving, as the institutions we love in our country, our foreign aid, our social safety nets, our postal service and yes, our national parks are being dismantled and destroyed, unlikely to come back, in my lifetime anyway. As RC says, it's something new every day and we can't even keep up.Other than what many of us are already doing--taking to the streets, hounding our representatives, economic boycotts, supporting the groups that fund legal challenges, supporting independent media that gets the truth out--I am at a loss as to what else we’re supposed to do, and am open to suggestions!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Jan C wrote: "And people are busted up about the firing of employees - especially park/forest rangers. "It's not that I'm not taking all of this seriously - as Alwynne states, I am - but can't re..."
They're so swift! At Pisgah Forest (my local national forest) they fired the people who were doing the rehabbing from the hurricane. And they were demonstrating there last weekend. Now admittedly some of them were the Young Progressives. I didn't even know there was a group of young progressives. This is the danger of living in a tourist town and they're trying to get rid of that which attracts the people to the town. There's very little industry here other than tourism. There used to be some factories but they closed long ago. Thank goodness for the state forest.
Alwynne wrote: "Jan C wrote: "Ben wrote: "Certainly Trump is looking to change our understanding of what is constitutional in the US, and he is pushing his power to the limits (and beyond) of what is legal and con..."I live in a very red district. Parks are not the least of our concerns in western North Carolina. There is nothing else here anymore. It may sound light to other people but when that's all there is I can see why it would be pretty serious.
Kathleen wrote: "Even if you are tapped in, it's very hard to know what to do. Our country has been taken over by a cult, and many of us are still in shock that Trump was ever elected the first time. Just like in a..."James Carville has been saying that perhaps we should let him burn himself out. Not sure that's a good idea. It might take too long and there won't be anything left. Democrats seem to be in low regard right now and without much of a leader. I donate money, pretty much every day. Not a lot, a little here, a little there. And this is a very large country. Difficult to unite unless you have a cult going on.
Mod
'She had no provincialisms, no Londonisms. She could say, "There are no rules for English pronunciation, but what is usual at the University of Oxford is decisive for cultured people".'
This was published in 1915, I think Richardson started writing it around 1912 - I'm interested to see London described as having a 'provincial' accent with Oxford as the 'rule'. I've always assumed London accents being associated with the royal courts and therefore central to 'Englishness' in verbal terms. Does anyone have any information on this?
Roman Clodia wrote: "I read this in Pointed Roofs by Dorothy M. Richardson and wonder if anyone has thoughts?'She had no provincialisms, no Londonisms. She could say, "There are no ru..."
I think the Oxford accent was an exaggerated form of what we would call RP, that distinctive upper-middle class way of speaking. I think too that Londinisms would extend to Cockney accents, phrases, expressions etc
Mod
An example of what Americans are facing.The Governor of Maine stood up to Trump publicly at a meeting. This is the result, a demonstration of how the people of the State will be punished for the impertinence of their Governor.
https://www.pressherald.com/2025/03/0...
Petty, perhaps, but an example of the power he is abusing.
Ben wrote: "An example of what Americans are facing.The Governor of Maine stood up to Trump publicly at a meeting. This is the result, a demonstration of how the people of the State will be punished for the ..."
A trip to an office versus a pounding from Russian guns; Peter Thiel wanting to buy my country for another of his model cities; and/or a trashed economy? Hmm...
He doesn't yet have complete control, and overt violence would be counterproductive, except against migrants and other disfavoured groups. But these measures will weaken resistance and reinforce his dominance, as will denial of disaster aid and government services to Democratic leaning states, enrichment of his cronies and relaxation of anti-corruption enforcement, contrasting with prosecution of businesses that don't toe the line and tax audits, etc. of individual opponents.The playbook for creeping authoritarianism.
Ben wrote: "He doesn't yet have complete control, and overt violence would be counterproductive, except against migrants and other disfavoured groups. But these measures will weaken resistance and reinforce hi..."I'm sorry Ben, just maybe not the best example, Brits have to make appts to register births on the whole and do have to travel to the local register office. If having to do so makes Americans too scared to speak out...I'm a bit lost for words.
The point of this is to make it disadvantageous to elect governors who oppose Trump. Just a few percent of "practical" voters can make a difference, particularly when added to the numbers who are prevented from voting by other "anti vote fraud" measures
I'm sorry Ben, I love you dearly, but my sympathy for the American electorate is at an all-time low. It doesn't help that the overwhelming majority of the Americans I'm encountering online are caught up in these kinds of local, long-term issues, rather than thinking about the rather more immediate consequences for the countries their administration is threatening.
I don't disagree with you at all, Alwynne. The consequences for Gazans, Ukrainians, Greenlanders, Canadians, Africans and Europeans are frightful, both from the actions by the USA and by its new allies, but how can that be fixed without addressing the source of T***p's power? Understanding how American democracy is being subverted and finding ways to reinforce the areas where resistance can be organised is important to me and to anyone seeking to change the course the USA is on. Who can we support? Where can we make a difference!
There are campaigning organisations like 50501 which also lists events, forms of action taking place or useful to support:https://www.fiftyfifty.one/
There's also Indivisible which publishes practical guides for action:
https://indivisible.org/
Organisations to support/actions also listed at:
https://www.advocate.com/politics/ant...
https://www.yesmagazine.org/democracy...
https://www.thecampaignworkshop.com/b...
https://www.headsupnews.org/p/what-yo...
https://www.amnestyusa.org/campaigns/
https://sign.moveon.org/petitions/joi...
Alwynne wrote: "Ben wrote: "He doesn't yet have complete control, and overt violence would be counterproductive, except against migrants and other disfavoured groups. But these measures will weaken resistance and ..."In the UK you can register a birth at the hospital if you do it before you are discharged. After that yes we do travel to register, but if you live in an urban or suburban area you are not travelling far. I had a number of places I could register son within 5 miles, with a bookable appointment. I think the US system has a smaller number of centres requiring parents to travel further.
While this problem or parks closing may be trivial they are what gets electorates backs up. A lot of people do not care about the big picture, they only care about how government effects them. In the UK many of the electorate care more about potholes than child poverty. Trump's selling point is to make Americans feel that he is making life better for them. Maybe it will be combined trivial changes, inconveniences or increased household expenses that will burst Trump's bubble.
Ben wrote: "Good list. Add the ACLU.https://www.aclu.org/"
Thanks, a number seemed helpful as include actions possible for people unable to get out to protest or with limited resources.
R. C. mentioned wondering where Obama was in all this, there's an article raising similar questions in todays' Guardian:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...
And kudos to the protesters who daubed Trump's clubhouse:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
And also Public Citizen, https://www.citizen.org/, who are working hard on and having some success with lawsuits. I doubt those babies will be getting a social security number any time soon. Many social security offices are closing due to mass firing of social security employees. All kinds of delays are predicted, including checks to seniors who often have no other income.
Despite what many may be posting online, what I hear in real life is the international issues horrifying people more than anything else.
Kathleen wrote: "And also Public Citizen, https://www.citizen.org/, who are working hard on and having some success with lawsuits. I doubt those babies will be getting a social security number any time soon. Many..."
That's reassuring Kathleen, support for Ukraine and for Gaza pretty robust here, and cuts across many political divides particularly where Ukraine's concerned. And much dislike of Trump and, especially, Vance here too.
And, yes, I am bewildered about members of American society able to protest who aren't. But also very concerned for the frail elderly, the many people already on/or close to the poverty line, people with disabilities, the vulnerable in general. It's always those groups who suffer first. And also concerned here about what impact ramping up our defence spending will have on social welfare for similar groups.
Mod
Thanks for that - I've been staying away from the news today apart from a brief BBC skim of the headlines first thing. But it's disappointing to see this silence - I would say the ex-presidents have a responsibility to stand up and speak out at this time. I'm also wondering about Michelle Obama's lack of visibility - she has always had a form of power less restrained by protocol.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "R. C. mentioned wondering where Obama was in all this, there's an article raising similar questions in todays' Guardian"Thanks for that - I've been staying away from the news toda..."
Yes me too. And, obviously not the same, the silence here about the threat to Canada given our historic ties.
So true, Alwynne, about the widespread impacts, and also about the vulnerable. This is one of the things we're having trouble keeping up with. Every day there's someone else to worry about and fight for. The good advice I've heard is choose one issue you feel strongly about and put your fight there.
Mod
Roman Clodia wrote: "One of the few things to be grateful for is Keir Starmer's phlegmatic approach to diplomacy, whatever his personal thoughts as a human rights lawyer. This is where stolid unemotionalism has a role ..."Absolutely!!! Other than Reform imploding - so enjoyed seeing Tice being shut up by Fiona Bruce on QT - the news today is not great - from firing squads to support in Trump's camp for Andrew Tate as UK leader. If I wasn't still laid up I'd probably be giving it a miss today too.
Roman Clodia wrote: "One of the few things to be grateful for is Keir Starmer's phlegmatic approach to diplomacy, whatever his personal thoughts as a human rights lawyer. This is where stolid unemotionalism has a role ..."Btw don't know if you ever follow 'The Rest is Politics' but their brand of calm 'centrist dad' discussion can be helpful/oddly reassuring when everything's feeling a bit too much. But you still want some sense of what's going on. The latest is:
Can We Restore Global Order After Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7gaQ...
Mod
Yes, loving the Reform implosion though can't watch Fiona Bruce (Tory enabler!) - and Farage trying to back-peddle on his admiration for Putin and Trump.
Roman Clodia wrote: "That's the Alastair Campbell/Rory Stewart podcast, isn't it? I've never really got into podcasts but sounds calming without switching off from the news totally. Will have a look at that one. Yes,..."
I find Bruce quite weird/unfathomable. But, in this instance, Tice was far worse. He did himself no favours and it was a delight to witness.
And yes Campbell/Stewart, I follow a few podcasts, this one's helpful to compare with the more left-wing ones I follow. Although since Trump a lot of consensus emerging.
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