The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2024 Booker Prize Shortlist Discussion
I agree but that’s why I can’t see it winning unless the Booker are (a) tone deaf or (b) sponsored by the Women’s Prize …. Because everyone will see straight through it. It’s much worse for a male writer to win now it seems to me than if the shortlist was say 2/4
The WP was set up initially in response to an all male shortlist but the organisers have changed their justification in recent years to focus much more on the issue of % of female winners of major prizes (eg that was the stat they quoted when launching the Non Fiction prize).
But they picked more Paul’s than women last year so both a and b are probably true.
The constant anti-Paul rhetoric on here can get a little wearing.The typical Booker winning author might be born in the early 1970s, which, in the UK at least, means the judges perhaps ought to be questioning why there isn't a Paul amongst the writers and characters. It was the #1 name during that period across the male population. One might more legimately question the over representation of Douglas's, say, amongst the winners on a proportional basis - that name barely existed by the mid 70s.
By the 2074 Booker we shall be lamenting the lack of Paul's and asking what needs to be done. The virulent anti-Paul sentiment on sites such as this means that the name now doesn't feature even in the top 1000 names for baby boys.
Paul wrote: "The virulent anti-Paul sentiment on sites such as this means that the name now doesn't feature even in the top 1000 names for baby boys."':-)
Everybody is called Liam and Noah and Leo these days.
But_i_thought_ wrote: "Paul wrote: "The virulent anti-Paul sentiment on sites such as this means that the name now doesn't feature even in the top 1000 names for baby boys."':-)
Everybody is called Liam and Noah and L..."
Liam is the #1 name for boys, I think, and Olivia for girls.
Paul wrote: "The constant anti-Paul rhetoric on here can get a little wearing.The typical Booker winning author might be born in the early 1970s, which, in the UK at least, means the judges perhaps ought to b..."
Do you honestly think we'll make it to the 2074 Booker? LOL I'm one of the youngest here, I think, and I'll be close to 80! Good grief!
The winner in 2074 will be Liam and Savannah or Leo and Sophia. But no Peters or Pauls and certainly no Douglases. LOL
Olivia completely rules the girls in UK - 6th year at #1. Oliver had been #1 for 8 years for boys but now deposed by Noah - Paul is just so New Testament. Although technically one could make a case for Henry as #1 since Henry is #10 but Harry is #7 and that's just an abbreviation for Henry.
ONS have some great data visualisation tools to play with
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati...
Paul wrote: "Olivia completely rules the girls in UK - 6th year at #1. Oliver had been #1 for 8 years for boys but now deposed by Noah - Paul is just so New Testament. Although technically one could make a ca..."
Thank you, Paul. That's an interesting link. I'm from Italy, though living in the US right now, and Sofia and Leonardo are just crushing every other name in Italy. I think Sofia might have overtaken Olivia in the US. I know a woman who named her daughter Noah. Guess she was hoping for a boy.
I'm not sure where else to post this comment but since the Women's Prize was referenced above, I thought I'd do it here. There doesn't appear to be a Listopia for 2025 Women's Prize for Fiction Eligible Books. Does somebody in particular tend to set up those lists or how does that work?? Noticed that there's already a list for 2025 Booker Prize so I'm curious. Thanks!!
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I can't see a list yet either. In theory anyone can create one. I have just started a 2025 discussion topic in the Women's Prize folder.
Doug Gordy sets up the Booker. He then relies on other to crowdsource the void but tries to police eligibility and delete people trying to prompt their pen books. Paul F does the Goldsmith and the IB - and largely as a solo effort (but I think is not doing an IB one for 2025)
So would be great if you wanted to set up a WP one - although unless either s group of people or one dedicated person adds eligible books the list does not always work that well.
Thank you, Cindy. I don't agree with the writer that this year's list is a strong list, though. I think it's one of the weakest. For me, only Held is a strong book, though I enjoyed reading some of the others.
This is always an excellent annual feature - the Guardian asking the shortlisted authors what inspired their work - and I feel it’s particularly strong this year https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
Also today there's actors (quite a few high profile ones this year) reading excerpts from the shortlisted books. Here's my personal fave: https://youtu.be/avxRVX9qAe4?si=Xo14G...
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "This is always an excellent annual feature - the Guardian asking the shortlisted authors what inspired their work - and I feel it’s particularly strong this year https://www.theguardian.com/books..."
Very interesting to read!
For me Percival Everett with this sentence stood out from the article: Every novel develops its own rhythm and sense of time; some feel like a raft trip down the rapids, others feel like a canoe ride across a lake. They have in common that drowning is a possibility.
So poetic.
I love Everett’s humor:“Don’t make eye contact.” - Virgil
“Never speak first.” - February
All of it tucked into a serious lesson on code switching.
I love Anna Michaels on HeldInvisibility, distillation, is at the heart of Held; much has been “left out” of this book. But, of course, not left out; instead, boiled away in distillation; now invisible, a trace, an absence.
The more I reflect the more I want it to win.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I love Anna Michaels on HeldInvisibility, distillation, is at the heart of Held; much has been “left out” of this book. But, of course, not left out; instead, boiled away in distillation; now inv..."
As soon as I read the longlist books, I was rooting for Held to win the prize. I've read the book twice now, and was thinking of another rereading this weekend. With every rereading I gain new insight.
Agreed. Held would be a strong winner.
This is what stood out to me: "Everything I write is a form of witness. Every time writer and reader meet each other’s gaze, there is the possibility that something might be mended. Held says: precisely in the places we feel most abandoned, we are not alone." (Anne Michaels)Reading this article has given me new respect for all of the six writers. I realize more and more how much work they put into their novels. It's a shame they can't all win the prize, but they are all winners simply being on the shortlist. Even so, in the end, only one book will stand above the others.
I love this, from Charlotte Wood, where she talks about trying to trust the reader, "I came across this sentence from WB Yeats: “Only that which does not teach, which does not cry out, which does not condescend, which does not explain, is irresistible,” from The Cutting of an Agate)."I've been reading Laozi's Dao De Jing: A New Interpretation for a Transformative Time and this line from Yeats could have come from it.
Makes me want to get ahold of this book! It's the only one I haven't read from the shortlist.
Rose wrote: "I love this, from Charlotte Wood, where she talks about trying to trust the reader, "I came across this sentence from WB Yeats: “Only that which does not teach, which does not cry out, which does n..."I don't know where you're located, Rose, but that book will be released in the US on February 11, 2025.
Bella (Kiki) wrote: "Rose wrote: "I love this, from Charlotte Wood, where she talks about trying to trust the reader, "I came across this sentence from WB Yeats: “Only that which does not teach, which does not cry out,..."I'm looking forward to it!
With the announcement being just one week away, what are your predictions for the winner? For me it is James, but I have a feeling that either Held or Creation Lake will snatch it
Mod
Hugh wrote: "James is still leading both our tables by a distance, but I still think it would be bad optics to give the prize to the only man left. Would love to see Held win, but I don't think that is very lik..."I completely agree; it’s the one factor that might prevent Percival from winning the prize, despite his novel being, in my opinion, superior to the others. It will undoubtedly be controversial, but isn’t controversy at the very heart of The Booker Prize?
my winner would be Charlotte Wood, but I am expecting the safekeep. since I am so fundamentally at odds with this years jurors, it seems fitting they would choose the least likely candidate in my opinion. :)
I am just reading them all for a third time. James is I think the book that will stand the test of time and be widely read (in the US) - but I am still struck by conversations I have had about the book - I still know almost no English readers who have read Huck Finn whereas some US readers have told me that all their friends have read it. James really has to win the NBA and Pulitzer - the Booker would be good although as Hugh says it will be a terrible look now from the female shortlist given it’s the make up of winners (no longer of longlist or shortlist) which the Booker is most criticised for these days.
Safekeep is really not my type of book but it will I think be the one with widest appeal of it wins. By contrast - Held, which would be my personal choice on balance, probably won’t be great for wider impact of the prize. If the judges stick to their re-read criteria though I think it wins.
This year as with my views ahead of the shortlist choice I would not be upset if any book won but equally not devastated if any book did not win.
Anyone at the readings on Monday.
Yes I'll be there, looking forward to the readings!Personally I am still rooting for Held to win but have a feeling Stone Yard Devotional might be a surprise winner which could have broad appeal.
Not so much mass appeal as mouse appeal.
I’ve been down to the bookies and put a few quid on Held to win. Just jinxed its chance of winning.
Hugh wrote: "James is still leading both our tables by a distance, but I still think it would be bad optics to give the prize to the only man left. Would love to see Held win, but I don't think that is very lik..."I feel exactly the same, Hugh. I very much want Held to win, but I think it's too much of a longshot. If either Creation Lake or The Safekeep wins, I will be disappointed. I can be happy with a win from any of the remaining three. For me, The Safekeep just wasn't a very good book, and it certainly lacked creativity. I knew what the "twist" was going to be even before I read the first sentence. All it took was a description of the book. I didn't enjoy anything about it. Did not enjoy Bruno's meanderings in Creation Lake, either, nor Sadie's whatever. I thought Held was head and shoulders above the other five, maybe a bit too good to win. But I can be happy if Orbital, Stone Yard Devotional, or James takes the prize.
Robert wrote: "I think Orbital will win"I kind of think that, too, though my favorite is Held. Orbital does have some magnificently beautiful passages. I have nothing bad to say about it, only that I loved Held more.
I have one more book to go on my third read - Creation Lake - and Held gets better (both in absolute terms and compared to the other books) on each iteration Of the judges really mean what they have said about re-reading I cannot see how it does not win.
But I am sure other considerations will come into play.
Now completed my third read of the shortlist. It’s been a very good year for the Booker I think. I enjoyed all of the third reads.
I would agree that it's been a strong year for the Booker. I enjoyed every book (some more than others!) and can make a case for every book as the winner. There is no book that I would be truly disappointed to see as the winner.In my mind, this is what a good Booker year is: a year that encourages me to read a bunch of books that I enjoy reading.
Good write up by Anthony Cummins (who you may remember called Creation Lake as a winner in his literary fiction preview of 2024) https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
Some brief highlights if you don’t want to read the whole thing
His conclusion is “you may say that whoever wins the 2024 Booker prize, it’s a year in which readers did, too.”
Earlier he says the only book he thinks does not deserve the prize is The Safe Keep - a bit too predictable once you guess what is going on and then too neat an ending once it’s revealed - “the story stops just as it really gets going.”
While he calls it easily the most likely winner, James is comes across as his second least favourite … in large part due to the “wish-fulfilling revenge fantasy” cinema-adaption designed ending. He thinks the only thing that can probably stop it though is the preponderance of male winners in the last 15 years (he does mention the look of picking the only male on a female dominated shortlist).
Held he obviously likes a lot himself “the novel’s fleeting interactions and shards of reminiscence repeatedly blindside the willing reader with vivid particularity” but then goes on to say “Still, I suspect booksellers will be weeping into their packing crates if it wins.”
SYD is “Winningly no-nonsense stuff, highly recommended to anyone in a reading slump and 100% prizeworthy” - he also remarks that Sara Collins is a known fan of Wood’s previous best known book
Orbital “be a fine winner, too, albeit short not only on plot but also irony, to some minds a vital bit of spice in a novel”
Which leads him to “Creation Lake” - while obviously still a huge fan it reads like he is aware that it had some mixed reviews (even if he implies the negative reviewers could not untangle the deliberate narrative unreliability) and I think that leads him to “Ultimately, I suspect it’s Everett’s novel that is the book every judge will be happiest standing behind, but when the choice is so open”
Here’s my two cents on why I think Orbital will win. First of all, I think all 6 books on this year’s shortlist are solid reads.
But
James is winning prizes, I notice the Booker likes to be first in everything so it won’t award it.
Held is a bit too experimental for the booker.
Safekeep has its twists and turns but is it really a book you’ll want to revisit?
Creation Lake -this one that probably reveals a lot more with rereads plus there’s topics like climate change, social class and it’s a deep dive into the human condition- it’s my second choice to win.
Stone yard devotional- this analysis of faith is quite interesting but I think there’s something lacking. It’s a bit cold.
Orbital has it all - distinct style, interesting plot , tackles the big topics and the small ones, has a big beating heart in its centre and will definitely yield more with rereads. I also met Paul Lynch on Friday and he’s hoping for her to win as well.
As I’m on the mobile and can’t edit: usually I get emotional when a certain book wins (I’m still angry at the IB - I felt that Kairos was the worst one on the shortlist) but this year , the books are on the same plane so it’s a case of … whatever.
I largely agree all your logic although a couple of comments. James has only won the Kirkus Prize so far I think - and I think the Booker might claim that by shortlisting The Trees they have Everett much greater prominence (he switched to a US major publisher after that) and so feel they were there first.
Having re read them all (three times in total) I don’t think Orbital does fully work on a re-read ….. I found it surprisingly slow going on all three reads … it feels like a book best sampled than read cover to cover. On Instagram quite a few people who were fans of the book commented they nevertheless fell asleep while listening to the audio … which made me smile as the same happens to the astronauts in the novel when watching the space film.
I think though only male author counts against James, only British author counts for Harvey
I read all of the books so long ago, that the announcement of the winner will seem a bit anticlamatic, or almost something out of date. I admire Gumble for reading them three times while waiting. I think that the only one I care to read again is Held, and, perhaps, Stone Yard Devotional.
Kathleen wrote: "I read all of the books so long ago, that the announcement of the winner will seem a bit anticlamatic, or almost something out of date. I admire Gumble for reading them three times while waiting. ..."
I agree with you about the announcement being anti-climactic and admiring GY.
I hope Held wins.
Interesting article in the Bookseller:Orbital by British author Samantha Harvey (Jonathan Cape) remains the sales leader among the six books shortlisted for the Booker Prize, shifting almost 29,000 copies this year. The winner of a prize worth £50,000—among a list dominated by the highest number of women in the prize’s 55-year history—will be announced tomorow night (12th November).
Sales of Harvey’s novel, which follows six astronauts aboard the International Space Station as they orbit Earth, increased 86% from the almost 3,500 copies sold prior to her Booker shortlisting, with nearly 2,000 copies sold last week alone, according to Nielsen Bookscan data. The book, originally published in November 2023 with its second format launched in June, is the one of the two Booker sextet available in paperback; nearly 26,000 copies of Orbital has come form its mass market edition.
The next biggest seller is American author Percival Everett, the only man on the shortlist, who secured the first nomination for Pan Macmillan’s imprint Mantle with his novel, James, a retelling of Huckleberry Finn. His title has sold a little over 21,000 copies in the UK, 5,400 units of which have come in the shortlisting period.
Yael van der Wouden’s The Safekeep (Viking)—van der Wouden is the first Dutch writer to be shortlisted for the Booker and the only debut on the list—also saw a considerable bump thanks to the shortlisting, with sales of the novel, which is set in a rural Dutch province in the 1950s, having reached almost 10,000 units. Prior to the September shortlisting, sold a little more than 4,700 copies.
Held by Canadian writer Anne Michaels (Bloomsbury Publishing) shifted just over 2,100 units in hardback since its release last November. But the mass market paperback of her family saga told across four generations, launched a week after the shortlist announcement, has added an another 8,500 copies for a total across all print editions of nearly 11,000.
American author Rachel Kushner’s Creation Lake (Jonathan Cape) has sold 8,300 copies, though the title was only released on 5th September, after it had been longlisted. It has averaged 923 units sold per week since launch.
Australian novelist Charlotte Wood’s Stone Yard Devotional (Sceptre) is the shortlist’s slowest seller on 4,000 units. But the Booker has given her a massive bump. The novel has earned 60% of its volume sales in the shortlist period, 84% since being longlisted. In the week prior to its longlisting, Stone Yard Devotional sold just four copies through BookScan.
Mohamed wrote: "Interesting article in the Bookseller:Orbital by British author Samantha Harvey (Jonathan Cape) remains the sales leader among the six books shortlisted for the Booker Prize, shifting almost 29,0..."
Interesting how tiny in a sense literary fiction sales numbers are (highlighting the niche we are in one could say), even after a shortlisting for what is one of the most famous prizes in the world. Curious to see how the works of Han Kang as new noble laureate compare in terms of sales to these numbers.
Agreed and there are the big seller books. It’s why I struggle when we (I include myself) talk about the Booker rewarding popular books or not being literary enough. Some of the prizes like say the Goldsmith are a small niche of a small niche. I also can’t see how the economics really works when you think how long these books take to write.
Julian Barnes once called the Booker "posh bingo" - think he meant the randomness of the winner, but it sort of functions like a lottery economically as well. I.e. one writer of literary fiction each year strikes it rich - which doesn't really help sustainability of economics either.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Dear Thief (other topics)Laozi's Dao De Jing: A New Interpretation for a Transformative Time (other topics)
Erasure (other topics)
Orbital (other topics)
Creation Lake (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Yael van der Wouden (other topics)
Samantha Harvey (other topics)
Rachel Kushner (other topics)
Charlotte Wood (other topics)
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Yep, me, too. You can easily promote 5 women to the shortlist if you have already decided that the winner will be the man. I can already hear the answer if somebody points out that there was no female winner in quite some time and only 3 women won in the last ten years, two of which had to share the prize: 'Yes, but we had 5 women on the shortlist!'