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2024 Booker Prize Shortlist Discussion
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Hugh, Active moderator
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Sep 16, 2024 12:24PM
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Honestly, my issue with The Safekeep is less chapter ten and more all the other sad tropes. It was an engaging read, so I am not really angry, but I just did not think it was a great book.All in all, I am a bit disappointed - but actually just a bit. I think because I was not very passionate about most of the books, the short list seems fine to me even though only one of my private shortlist made it. I loved Enlightenment but was fairly sure it would not make it, and I rooted for My Friends, which I thought on the list for sure.
I'd say James has no chance in hell to win with this short list, but... maybe the Jury just wants to see everything burn. Nominating 5 women only to give the Booker to Everett would be such a power move! Lowkey rooting for the drama.
In The Safekeep, the thought of erotica never occurred to me as I listened to the audio book. I just thought of those passages as descriptive passion. Several others here also used that term.
Yeah, I am not feeling erotica either - I just thought it was not the best narrative choice. But I am not against sex in literature in general. I like to see the point of it in the larger context of the novel though.
Two of the three I have yet to read made the shortlist, so that means I will read them and they will not linger on the TBR shelf. I will read the 3rd as well, as that is Playground and I do love Richard Powers's books. I cannot say I am disappointed, even though I was rooting for Enlightenment - it was just so British!
I’m pleased with this shortlist. I agree with those who think Safekeep is the weakest on the list, but I enjoyed that book quite a bit, so I’m not mad it’s on there. Held is my least favorite of the shortlist but that’s because I really don’t like that style of novel. For what Michaels was trying to do, she executed it very well. Stone Yard Devotional was this year’s pleasant surprise for me, so I’m glad it’s going to get more attention.
It was exciting to wake up and see Stone Yard Devotional on the list. I am also happy for Charlotte Wood.Very surprised not to see Playground. Orbital was one of my favorite reads from the LL but I must admit I did not expect to see it here. James and Creation Lake were expected. Held not unexpected. Safekeep.- I did enjoy the book - but I am not sure I am happy to see it here.
I don't know how, in any universe, at any time, The Safekeep can be a better book than Playground, but then I'm not a Booker judge. I don't know the criteria they used. I thought Chapter 10 was too explicit, and I'm no prude, but like some others, I'm disappointed in The Safekeep for other reasons as well. I think it's boring and predictable. The prose is fine, grammatically, but nothing about it sparkles like it does in The Enlightenment and in Held. I'm hoping Held wins.Of course, I very much dislike Creation Lake, but I know full well, it may win the whole thing. I don't think it's even a novel, but that's just me and at least, one professional reviewer, Some people are going to love it and hate Held. In fact, some won't consider Held a true novel, and they might be right. Books are very subjective. I'm more disappointed Playground isn't on the list than disappointed Creation Lake is. Playground's such a lovely book. Creation Lake just reads as though it was slapped together just to please the judges. Oh, well, that's life.
I am surprised that My Friends was dropped. I have mixed feelings about Creation Lake, although I enjoyed it, it was not my favorite Kushner novel. Now quite eager to finish Held and Orbital. At this point, I am hoping that James takes the prize.
Danielle wrote: "I am surprised that My Friends was dropped. I have mixed feelings about Creation Lake, although I enjoyed it, it was not my favorite Kushner novel. Now quite eager to finish Held and Orbital. At th..."I've only read the introductory chapters but was impressed by Everett's incorporation of aspects of Du Bois's and Douglass's ideas. I also liked the way certain themes linked back to those explored in Erasure.
I know there are a number of readers who really object to Powers as he can be clumsy in his writing particularly of other voices/races etc … eg a number of people I am close to on Instagram said they would not read his latest due to things in Playground (and while far more trivial I struggled with some stuff in Overstory as a character had the same job as me and was really badly written). So I wonder if there was a judge who was not keen on him either in general or in this book.
It was top of my list but I was not fully surprised it was dropped as he can be marmite-y.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I know there are a number of readers who really object to Powers as he can be clumsy in his writing particularly of other voices/races etc … eg a number of people I am close to on Instagram said th..."I can't imagine his writing of Rafi did him any favours although I'd like to reread (a theme with this list!) to see how some of this intersects with the twist.
Alwynne wrote: "Danielle wrote: "I am surprised that My Friends was dropped. I have mixed feelings about Creation Lake, although I enjoyed it, it was not my favorite Kushner novel. Now quite eager to finish Held a..."I also really liked how James resonated with Erasure.
My three favourite (Orbital, Creation Lake and James) made the shortlist, which I’m very happy about! I definitely hope a female wins this year - and there are some worthy nominees. I’ve thought from the beginning Held would win - and while not in my personal shortlist, there was much to admire about it and it just seems a very ‘booker-y’ book. I do love James but it’s not my favourite- and The Trees was a much better Everett book in my opinion! (Plus James will surely win the Pulitzer?!!).
Very mixed feelings about this list. My top two (The Safekeep and James) made the list which I'm very happy about but I really did not take to Held at all and while I haven't read Creation Lake yet, I'm a bit apprehensive as I really didn't like The Mars Room.Looking at the above discussion re: The Safekeep and eroticism... I'm a bit confused. Yes, there were explicit scenes in the novel but I wouldn't necessarily say it's all about sex; the love story is a central part of the novel so explicit scenes are very much to be expected. I remember that Normal People was well-received here when it was longlisted and that was far heavier on explicit themes so I don't understand if there's pushback to the scenes in The Safekeep.
I was a bit slow on the longlist this year so I still have some longlisters to get through as well as Creation Lake and Stone Yard Devotional so I'll be curious to see if they're better than some books that I would have personally put on the shortlist.
Laura wrote: "Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I know there are a number of readers who really object to Powers as he can be clumsy in his writing particularly of other voices/races etc … eg a number of p..."I would love if it turned out there was some meta thing going on and Powers was highlighting how AI coded by affluent white people is prone to stereotyping minorities.
(Highly doubt it though, and it's an explanation that would fly a bit too close to the sun.)
Ben wrote: "Laura wrote: "Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I know there are a number of readers who really object to Powers as he can be clumsy in his writing particularly of other voices/races etc … eg..."Yeah, no, I don't think this would fly given the earlier sections on Rafi's childhood, so the problem is never going to disappear, but I'd like to have another look at the exact timings of what happens (this book is so hard to discuss without spoilers...)
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Normal People was 6 years ago, and the active membership of this group has changed a lot since then. It wasn't universally loved either (but then what is!). I quite enjoyed it at the time but I have not felt the need to read anything Sally Rooney has written since. Same for The Safekeep - I enjoyed it on its own terms (particularly the first third) but there were at least four books I liked more that didn't make the shortlist.
Laura wrote: "Very mixed feelings about this list. My top two (The Safekeep and James) made the list which I'm very happy about but I really did not take to Held at all and while I haven't read Creation Lake yet..."I do think sexual awakening is a theme in The Safekeep, but I think the author went overboard with the explicit sex. It's a book for adults and every adult I've ever known knows what goes on in hetero- or homosexual sex without having to have it spelled out. I was reading reviews yesterday, and a lot of people said they skipped that part. I did, mostly. I'm not a prude, but I don't care for erotica of any kind. I have a sex scene in my latest book, and it was explicit, but only one paragraph. It disturbed even me, so now it's just a poetic hint, and I like that much better. Also the twist in The Safekeep was apparent to me even before I read one page of the book. Just hearing people talk about it and from the descriptions of the book, I knew what it would be. I did like the atmosphere in the book, though. I love an atmospheric book, and The Safekeep has plenty of atmosphere. Still, I was surprised to see it on the shortlist. But with my favorite, by far, Held, making the shortlist, I can't complain. I love that book, ending chapters and all.
Hugh wrote: "Laura wrote: "Very mixed feelings about this list. My top two (The Safekeep and James) made the list which I'm very happy about but I really did not take to Held at all and while I haven't read Cre..."I don't like books told in letters or diary entries, etc., so I didn't like that part of The Safekeep at all. I think you're the person who liked Held and Enlightenment like I did. I thought the Maria strand of Enlightenment could have been stronger - or dropped - and it would have been a better book, but other than Held, Enlightenment is the book I enjoyed reading most of all. I didn't think the judges would like it, though.
I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a misleading label to give the book that may have some explicitly erotic writing but which is part of the story it's telling. I didn't like the book, btw, but for other reasons!
We should shift detailed Playground chat to that thread to avoid joining the judges in spoilers. But I will say that Powers issues with representation were present in Bewilderment also and I think previous books - it’s why a number of readers said they did not want to read this.
He is an old fashioned writer who believes strongly in the power of narrative which includes inhabiting very different voices - but that does not always sit well with current sensibilities. For me his very strengths of his imagination are also his very weaknesses.
Roman Clodia wrote: "I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a misleading label to g..."I'm sorry, but I've missed your point, I think. I don't think the intention of the author matters. If explicitly sexual writing arouses a person, then it doesn't matter what the author's intention was, does it? That reader is going to be aroused whether it's a chapter or an entire book. I think The Safekeep is a book charged with sexual arousal, intensity, whatever, but it's not a book of erotica. It's a book with erotic material in it, and I do think the author knew and knows that people who enjoy female on female sex, or just reading about it, will be aroused when reading Chapter 10, and some poor souls beyond. I think all erotica is intended to arouse, in this case, not for arousal alone, though, but in the service of her plot, of what is to come. But if you are saying it's not an erotic book, I certainly agree, it's not. It's a book that contains erotic material. I still think implication would have served better and even elevated the book. I think this book suffers from lack of a strong theme. Things are not what they seem isn't good enough. Of course, she's also exploring one of my favorite themes, the past is never over, it isn't even the past. (I have to give credit to Faulkner for stating that, it's not original with me, though it's a theme in every book I write, since I agree with it.)
I saw this quote from Sara Collins“It was a genuine surprise to us. We came up with the shortlist, we sat back and looked at the pile and someone said: ‘Ha, there are five women there’.”
She added: “These books rose to the top on merit - they are tremendous books but… it was such a gratifying, surprising, thrilling moment to realise.
“My experience as a writer is that publishing is... dominated at certain levels by women but the literary recognition… has still seemed to be reserved for men."
The only time I judged a prize (the RoC) exactly the same happened (note one of the authors now identifies as they/their)
But I just can’t see how you say that but then give the ultimate recognition to the only man.
Roman Clodia wrote: "I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a misleading label to g..."Yes, this is precisely what I mean. It feels like a diminishment of the book to label it as erotica because there's a sex scene in it. Could you imagine if films at the Oscars got discounted because there was an explicit sex scene in it? It feels a bit puritanical to say that any art that depicts sexual scenes should be considered lesser- yes, Van der Wouden could have used a technique to simply infer but her writing of the sex scene a choice that I felt helped show the depth of the connection between Isabel and Eva.
I absolutely respect people not liking the novel and I can definitely see valid criticisms to hold against it but I can't get on board with the criticism about its explicit inclusion of sexual scenes.
I more thought it was very funny how she thanks her family in the acknowledgments for not discussing chapter 10 with her. Definitely the best acknowledgment /afterword comment across the longlist.
Laura wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a ..."It certainly wouldn't be shelved with erotica in the bookshop. To me, it's a book that contains a chapter of erotica, the term being nothing more than a piece of erotic writing, whether a book, a chapter, an essay, etc. The Safekeep, to me, is a contemporary book that contains a chapter of erotica, or erotic writing, which is the same thing. But I would never label the book erotica or even an erotic book. I just found it too lightweight and predictable for the Booker. It's almost a bigger surprise to me than Playground not being included on the short list.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/wha..."I wish they would offer a live stream option for that.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I saw this quote from Sara Collins“It was a genuine surprise to us. We came up with the shortlist, we sat back and looked at the pile and someone said: ‘Ha, there are five women there’.”
She adde..."
I saw that quote as well GY and it was coped in a lot of the press coverage. It will certainly be a bit awkward if Everett winds up winning, but then again it's not that hard to claim that James deserves it.
Laura wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a ..."She could have shown the depth of their desire for each other without being so explicit. I feel it's her lack of writing experience that she didn't. The entire chapter could have been written to show the depth of their connection without the explicit details. It would have been, I think, even deeper had the author done so.
But I agree. The book is not erotica, it's a book with an erotic chapter. I didn't like it myself, but that wasn't my choice to make. I did like the atmosphere of the book, but I found it predictable. Nothing new here.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I saw this quote from Sara Collins“It was a genuine surprise to us. We came up with the shortlist, we sat back and looked at the pile and someone said: ‘Ha, there are five women there’.”
She adde..."
I'm sorry, GY, I didn't mean to be talking around you, and I did read your posts. I don't see how they were surprised that they came up with five women and one man. Surely, they didn't forget who the authors were when talking about the books. I think they simply wanted to award the prize to a woman this year. I would have rather seen Enlightenment on the shortlist than The Safekeep, though. And Playground has always been the standout favorite to me, that and Held, but I thought they would feel Held was too different to award it the prize. But then Lincoln in the Bardo was very different. I think I mentioned, weeks ago, how much I loved Held and said I don't think it'll win because it's not conventionally written, and I didn't even think it would make the shortlist. I'm fairly sure it was you who said, "I wouldn't be too sure about the shortlist." Well, you are right, I was wrong, and I am glad. I really hope Held wins. To me, it's the strongest book of the six, despite the tenuous connections to John and Helena near the end, i.e., Lia being Peter's mother, which you pointed out to me. Thank you. :-)
I genuinely thought the pear scene was actually quite well done in the Safekeep, it remembered me of a sapphic rendering of the peach scene in Call Me By Your Name.
Henk wrote: "I genuinely thought the pear scene was actually quite well done in the Safekeep, it remembered me of a sapphic rendering of the peach scene in Call Me By Your Name."I totally agree. And the pear scene was far more erotic than the explicit sexual details. That's the best example of what I meant when I said she could have made the book stronger by implication than by sexual details. I loved the pear scene. All that wonderful juice. LOL
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I more thought it was very funny how she thanks her family in the acknowledgments for not discussing chapter 10 with her. Definitely the best acknowledgment /afterword comment across the longlist."
That was funny. I liked that better than parts of the book.
Well I can only say what happened when we debated the longlist for the 2018 RoC. Eley Williams, Preti Taneja, Isabel Waidner (all pretty well unknown at that time) straight through to shortlist no question.
Then a whole group of books we were debating maybe down to 5-6 from which we then picked 3 (including dropping Ben Myers and Mathias Enard) after a pretty intense discussion (borderline argument).
But only then once we had reached an uneasy consensus (and face down some attempts to reopen the debate the next day) did we really think of how the shortlist looked.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Well I can only say what happened when we debated the longlist for the 2018 RoC. Eley Williams, Preti Taneja, Isabel Waidner (all pretty well unknown at that time) straight through to shortlist n..."
Thank you for letting us know that, GY. That's interesting.
So you did decide based on the book. I hope the Booker judges did the same, but I have reservations. But, we have the shortlist and that is that.
Yes re book but it’s a prize that champions books that mainstream publishers are less likely to publish so there is another criteria at play.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Yes re book but it’s a prize that champions books that mainstream publishers are less likely to publish so there is another criteria at play."I see. Thank you.
GY, do you think you're going the take the SL for another spin before the winner is announced?Overall, I think this shortlist personally is a good mix between what I would have liked vs. what I expected to happen. The only one I'm not keen on is Held, but I think that boils down to "this book isn't for me" as opposed to "it is a book with objective flaws."
I understand why the 6 were chosen, and to GY's point that the judges seem to emphasize rereads here, I can definitely see how these 6 reflect that sentiment- I think a few of them will stand up to a third reread (Held, James, SYD), but unsure of how the rest will fare.
I'm placing my early bets on those three. Let's say $0.50 on James, .40 on Held, and a dark-horse .10 on SYD. (Both Held and SYD read to me as call-ins the judges requested, which is why I'm not surprised they're shortlisted and can see a world in which they could win as well.)
I think - at this stage - orbital will win but I won’t be surprised if James does
Henk wrote: "I genuinely thought the pear scene was actually quite well done in the Safekeep, it remembered me of a sapphic rendering of the peach scene in Call Me By Your Name."The pear scene also reminded me of the baguette-tearing scene in Cursed Bread! Women + food + desire.
I think Safekeep had a lot of potential, but for me it was too patronizing in the way it over-explained everything to the reader. Sections like these, spelling things out three times in a row, made me want to tear my hair out:
“You don’t have to be her, Isabel.”
He meant their mother.
She knew he meant their mother.
Robert wrote: "I think - at this stage - orbital will win but I won’t be surprised if James does"I think Creation Lake will win, and it's the only one I really don't want to win. I'm not fond of James, either, but I see it as an alternative to Creation Lake. I do love Held, and I'd love to see it win, but I don't think it will. :-( But then, I didn't see it making the shortlist, either.
But_i_thought_ wrote: "Henk wrote: "I genuinely thought the pear scene was actually quite well done in the Safekeep, it remembered me of a sapphic rendering of the peach scene in Call Me By Your Name."The pear scene al..."
I think The Safekeep had a lot of potential, too. I loved the atmosphere of the book, but it was predictable - I correctly guessed the twist without reading one page - and, as you said, I think it is repetitive. I put that down to the author's youth and the fact that this is her first book. She even neglected to craft a killer first sentence to pull the reader into the book, and just off the top of my head, I can think of three or four. But what a way to begin a writing career, with being on the Booker shortlist. Because of my liking for atmosphere, I will probably read what she writes next, and I wish her all the best in her career.
Roman Clodia wrote: "I think the term 'erotica', as opposed to 'erotic' implies writing that has the purpose of arousing the reader - I don't think that's the intention of The Safekeep. It seems a misleading label to g..."Agree R. C. it's an important distinction to bear in mind!
Laura wrote: "It feels like a diminishment of the book to label it as erotica because there's a sex scene in it. Could you imagine if films at the Oscars got discounted because there was an explicit sex scene in it? It feels a bit puritanical to say that any art that depicts sexual scenes should be considered lesser"With you on this Laura, was surprised by some of the reviews on the GR pages for this one, I could understand thinking a sex scene was dull or not very well written but a number of the comments did seem closer to prudish/puritanical. Smacked of the kind of response I associate with the 'clean fiction movement' at times - maybe the publishers should bundle it with a bottle of smelling salts, and something to soothe any nearby horses!
Garrett wrote: "I'm placing my early bets on those three. Let's say $0.50 on James, .40 on Held, and a dark-horse .10 on SYD."Haven't seen the odds yet but pre shortlist James was the favourite by some margin but followed by My Friends, This Strange .., Wandering Stars and Wild Houses all of which didn't make it.
I really can't see James winning, as entertaining as that might be. I thought held received a lot of love during the short list announcement though. SYD is the only short listed book I had on my personal best list - not sure if that means it is unlikely to win, since I clearly disagree with the judges....
Yes I probably will read the shortlist a third time alongside praiseworthy and the Goldsmith and of course the new Saint Sally
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Dear Thief (other topics)Laozi's Dao De Jing: A New Interpretation for a Transformative Time (other topics)
Erasure (other topics)
Orbital (other topics)
Creation Lake (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Yael van der Wouden (other topics)
Samantha Harvey (other topics)
Rachel Kushner (other topics)
Charlotte Wood (other topics)
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