Left Behind
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its funny how they call this christian fiction...
message 1501:
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Will
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rated it 2 stars
Oct 09, 2014 05:16PM
I dunno. As a comedian puts it, I haven't heard Satan's side of the story :D
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Will - if you know anything about sin then you know Satan's modus operandi.
Robert wrote: "Yes, Maria, admonishments are gravy, not necessities for salvation. But, as you mentioned, faith without works is dead so the Lord puts missions on your shoulders according to your individual spiri..."Oh, please, "one at a time" - no. Can't you just read my post and answer my queries one at a time at your own pace?
Sorry to overwhelm you.
Anyone else?
No, Maria - if it's important enough for me to answer than it has to be important enough for you to prioritize. Any 5 year old can blurt out questions, I only respond to serious thought.
How do you know, you've only heard one side of the story? (Did you miss that part of the punchline?) I think you're worshipping the more evil being.
(As originally stated, this was a joke, told by a comedian, it's not meant to be taken as a serious position against your faith)
But it is a fun position to ponder on. After all, if everything came from God, and evil exists, then God (in His all-knowing ways) knew that he was ultimately creating unnecessary evil and suffering, No?
Satan is mentioned and elaborated on many times in Scripture. His function and position is well documented. Maybe you should actually try reading the Bible, Will, there's no telling what you'd learn (and, yes, there's a few comedic moments in it's pages.)
Robert wrote: "Satan is mentioned and elaborated on many times in Scripture."I feel like the words are going right past you, Robert, and you didn't even register the joke. The joke is... ready for it? The Scripture is only one side of the story. Did Satan write part of the Scriptures? Is there a book in the canon that's Satan's autobiography or perhaps his memoirs? Or did I miss a Sunday School lesson? That's the joke, Robert.
Ha! Ha! Will, you're such a wit. You should be on late night TV - you put Jay Leno to shame; never have I heard such a funny joke. Now, are you happy?
Geezer wrote: "but it was written to scare the pants off of anyone that believes in Revelations.Every generation has a fear of/desire for the Apocalypse. Somehow its implied that death and destruction will giv..."
You can dislike the book without making attacks against people whose beliefs you do not share. Your personal attack makes your opinion completely irrelevant.
Robert wrote: "Ha! Ha! Will, you're such a wit. You should be on late night TV - you put Jay Leno to shame; never have I heard such a funny joke. Now, are you happy?"It wasn't my joke, but you're right, it definitely becomes less funny when you have to explain the joke in detail for a person to get it.
Will wrote: "Just an fyi for any laymen out there. Revelation is a genre of book that was really popular during ancient times, and the Revelation in the Bible, in all probability from what Biblical scholars can..."You are correct. Apocalyptic literature was written after the time of the Prophets. It uses veiled, cryptic references because during those times of persecution, the writers of such books and letters did not want to risk being caught sharing messages of salvation, for the penalty was death. Apocalyptic literature also uses well-known names to hide the real identities of people and places so any interceptors of the messages would not be able to decipher them.
Robert wrote: "Glansar - the easy part about following Satan is you don't have to think about it or do anything away from your natural inclinations. Just follow-up on the tempatations Satan tosses your way and you'll be worshipping him thoroughly."Let me sum up then:
Satan is this laid-back guy that doesn't force me to do anything, let me be myself and follow my natural instincts, whose one real transgression is that he dared to antagonize God.
God is this unimaginable, horrible satrap who makes us go through thousands of years of tribulations just because one of our ancient ancestors stole an apple from him. He created a world in which even small children and soulless animals are made to suffer sometimes to a degree that would make Hitler shed a tear. World of wars, illness, hatred, violence, and so on and so forth. And all this just to make us love and worship him.
Tell me again Robert: what is the exact reason I should choose to worship God rather than Satan?
Robert wrote: "No, Maria - if it's important enough for me to answer than it has to be important enough for you to prioritize. Any 5 year old can blurt out questions, I only respond to serious thought."Never mind, Robert - it's not that important. If you had any answers that made sense you would have already posted them.
Giansar - great post. Sums it up perfectly!
Glasnar - you worship God because he gave you everything you've got to use in an obedient love for your fellow man. If you choose to misuse those gifts for hate or self aggrandizement, blame Satan, not God.
Maria - now I realize to the truly self-centered. other people's time is not nearly as important as theirs. But a Christian would have taken the opportunity to thank someone who endeavored to answer some of the questions she posed. Instead, Ms. Super Important chastised him for not answering them all. Such selfishness is not useful in God's kingdom. Don't bother asking any more questions until you grow up (if ever) and are capable of acting on the answers - your attitude is a poor prerequisite to being a servant to the Master.
Will - the book of Revelation is an account of the end of times by a prophet (probably John of Patmos) who dashed off a vision he thought came directly from God. Theologians also feel this or it wouldn't be codified in the Bible. Interpretations vary as to methodology and time frame, but the second coming and the Apocalypse are indelible fixtures in modern Christianity.
Robert wrote: "Maria - now I realize to the truly self-centered. other people's time is not nearly as important as theirs. But a Christian would have taken the opportunity to thank someone who endeavored to answe..."You didn't answer anything I asked or comment on any of the Biblical points I mentioned. You told me to prioritize and that you can't/won't answer questions unless they are posed one at a time.
I think that's pretty self-centered of you.
I can't act on any answers from you because you haven't given any answers. You've sidestepped them all, preferring to lecture and counsel me.
I guess that's easier than facing the fact that you can't provide any reasonable answers.
And by the way, I don't consider anyone my "master" and I don't consider myself a servant to anyone.
Robert wrote: "Glasnar - you worship God because he gave you everything you've got to use in an obedient love for your fellow man. If you choose to misuse those gifts for hate or self aggrandizement, blame Satan, not God."If I believed in God as depicted in Left Behind I don't think I would be able to worship him. Worship as I understand it is feeling of utmost love and respect. I worship my wife. I couldn't worship God of Left Behind. I would be scared shitless of him and obey him had I believed in him but I would not love nor respect him. Love and respect cannot be born of fear.
Maria wrote: "I know what the topic is - but you professed your religious beliefs and as a formerly religious person, I'm curious as to your beliefs on certain concepts that I had a hard time with.You yourself said that "those of us who follow the Lord are admonished to witness to unbelievers" - so is that gravy?
Believing is not enough - the Bible says that the demons believe - faith without works is dead - also in the Bible.
You mention that Jesus is the Son of God. Does that mean you don't believe in the Trinity - i.e. that Jesus is God himself?
Also the concept of "once saved, always saved" doesn't really make sense to me either. So if you earnestly believe the Jesus story and become "saved", you're good to pretty much live and do as you want..."?
Robert, I'm not picking on you at all, I just wanted to discuss some religious teachings with someone who professes to be religious, particularly Christian.
Your thoughts and opinions on the topics I brought up are welcomed, as are anyone else's."
Not sure if the quoting thing worked, so forgive me if it didn't. I've never really used the Goodreads forums before yesterday.
Robert might not be willing to answer, but I will answer as best I can from my beliefs, and what I've been taught. I am *not* a new Christian, but rather a lifelong Catholic Christian, currently pursuing my degree in theology.
We are called to witness to unbelievers, and it certainly is not gravy. It's a definite commission, the Great Commission, in fact, but it does not mean we have to go door-to-door in order to witness. We *should* be willing to witness in every facet of our lives and preach the Gospel always, but only use words when necessary. Our actions should speak far louder than words, and people should know we are Christians by the way we speak and act. Do we always get it right? Of course not. None of us do, or ever will, but that doesn't mean that we aren't to try, to ask forgiveness when we fail, and take the next opportunity to try again.
Faith without works is dead is indeed in the Bible, but that doesn't mean the good that we do is what is going to get us into heaven. Only faith can do that. Someone who has faith, however, and I do mean truly has it and tries to live it, responds to all situations out of love. The "works" are meant to describe our actions and how we live out the faith we profess. Even the devil believes, but his actions are certainly not driven by love of God and neighbor, but rather love of himself. It's fine, well, and good to believe, but if you don't show it and act like it, it certainly is not a living faith that one has taken into themselves and allows to permeate every facet of life.
Jesus is the Son of God, yet also God, and is the second part of the Trinity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. To deny any of this is to really not know or understand God, yet at the same, the Trinity is a mystery. We can attempt to understand, and we can attempt to describe the essence of God, it truly is impossible to describe a being that clearly transcends humanity using only finite human terms.
I do not believe the "once saved, always saved" philosophy the way some people do in its exact words. We have been redeemed by Christ, and we are called to accept his gift of Salvation, by that certainly does not mean we can say, "Oh joy, I am saved!" and then turn around and live in any old way we choose. I firmly believe that we work out our salvation every day, in our response to Christ, in our response to God. God cannot abide in sin. He simply cannot because it goes against his nature. Christ made a once and for all sacrifice for our sins, but we still must try to change our hearts, and our actions, and attempt to avoid putting ourselves into sinful situations, and avoid sinning when we can. Are we perfect? No. Will we continue to sin? Yes. And when we do, we must ask for forgiveness for those sins and try to undo whatever damage our sinful actions have caused, as well as learn from them and respond without sinning the next time. That is repentance. A person is not truly sorry if they continue to do the same things over and over again without attempting to change.
IMO, there is a certain dumbing down of what it means to be Christian. It's far more than just saying, "I'm a believer and I'm saved so I never have to worry about it again." It is a whole life change, and a whole being change that demands we live it out in the way God commands.
Do I believe we can lose our salvation? Yes and no. A person who truly has changed and been saved makes the whole life change I just mentioned, and that includes asking for forgiveness from those we have wronged, including God. When I think it can be lost is when salvation was truly never accepted and believed completely in the first place, and therefore, never existed for that person. Paying lip service alone simply doesn't cut it.
In Left Behind, since that is the topic of this thread, a good example is that of the pastor who was one of the ones left behind. He preached Christianity, love of God, love of Christ, so on, but he never truly believed it and let that love become a part of him. He merely said the right things.
God knows our hearts, as well as our actions. If they don't gel and we've done nothing to try and correct them, then too bad, so sad. The boat leaves without those folks.
As far as heaven goes (from another comment) I read a fabulous book many years ago, but for the life of me I cannot remember the title, I'm sorry. The book talks about how when the last day comes with the final judgment, and our souls are reunited with our bodies in the resurrection of the dead, God's reign will be on earth. Heaven will be on earth. Until that day, our spirits, souls, live on in a non-corporeal heaven that is not a place, but rather a state of being that means to live in the presence of God.
It's not specifically in the Bible, or even a Church teaching that I'm aware of, but I have always believed that the souls of the departed exist here with us, too. They cannot be seen because of a veil between worlds, if you will. We cannot see that which is spirit when we are corporeal. If Jesus is with us always, until the end of the age, then he walks among us even now, but hidden from human sight. He certainly could choose to appear at any given time, to anyone, just as he did on the road to Emmaus, and other biblical sighting claims. That leads me to believe in the presence of the deceased souls with us.
It is part of the mystery, of course, since no one really knows for certain, and there is likely more theology needing to be addressed here, but those are the basics.
I hope this has answered some of your questions.
Does anyone get all up in arms about Margaret Peterson Haddix' books, The Shadow Children Series? Or about Suzanne Collins' series, The Hunger Games? Both of these are set in the future and offer an alternate future than anyone wants to ever have. Because the Left Behind Series touches on a more realistic version of the future, it scares the living daylights out of most people that do not believe in Christ as their personal Savior. I feel sorry for anyone who lives without Christ in their life to comfort them that He will be with them, through everything that might happen in the future.
Librariantonna wrote: "Does anyone get all up in arms about Margaret Peterson Haddix' books, The Shadow Children Series? Or about Suzanne Collins' series, The Hunger Games? Both of these are set in the future and offer a..."Gag. Condescending superiority rarely works.
Librariantonna wrote: "Does anyone get all up in arms about Margaret Peterson Haddix' books, The Shadow Children Series? Or about Suzanne Collins' series, The Hunger Games? Both of these are set in the future and offer a..."I am truly sorry. I did not mean to come across in this way. Tonna
Robin - you're obviously a "love, love, everything is love" style Christian. That's fine if you have a soft heart that blends into a soft head. I keep my love in my heart and remain hard headed about obedience. There is such a thing as the Wrath of God and most of the people on this board ARE going to experience it from doing things according to their own "love" principal instead of in harmony with Scripture.
You're right, Mary - inferior people have much to teach us like what NOT to idolize.
Not my favorite books, but my dislike doesn't come from the theology or the authors' stances in writing the series. I had writing-related issues with the books: characters that read two-dimensional and flat; unrealistic dialogue; too wordy for a contemporary thriller series; etc. I'm not going to take issue with the theology.
Robert wrote: "You're right, Mary - inferior people have much to teach us like what NOT to idolize."Robert: you would not recognize love if it kicked you in the teeth. I truly feel sorry for you. Self righteousness can be a lonely pedestal.
This is not new, this belief that a vengeful god/s /ancestors-risen-from-the-dead/spirits will return and/or manifest themselves, and take revenge on behalf of a people who have been subjugated/colonised/beaten down. It appeared numerous times in the colonial era, most tragically amongst the Xhosa in the 1800s, in the region of South Africa where I live.It happens when a people/culture/tribe are unable to assimilate their way of life with a rapidly changing world, and in the colonial era, the pace of change was incredibly rapid for those poor souls who, in some cases, had only just emerged from the hunter-gatherer phase of societal evolution.
This, in my opinion, is what is happening in America. People on the extreme right cannot cope with the pace of change that is taking place, and I do not speak of technological change (although that is part of it) but rather moral and ethical change: equal rights for gays and other minorities, abortion rights for women, and a host of other things that have long since been accepted in Europe, and i dare say, here in South Africa.
What the Xhosa did, when confronted with this change, was kill themselves. Nearly two thirds of the tribe died, and paved the way for the eventual total domination of the white settlers.
I'm not sure what will happen in America, but in the war between the right and the left, the right are on the wrong side of history, and i hope sincerely they never have political power enough to get their hands on weapons of formidable mass-destruction, as I dare say they have already gotten hold of weapons of mass-destruction and used them at will in the Middle East this century.
WOW! I am enjoying this discussion because most of the opinions on here are different than mine and it is always interesting to hear what other people are thinking. This is what I believe. Not that anyone cares, but oh well. I believe that God created humans. The first two were Adam and Eve. He told them not to eat from only one tree in the Garden of Eden. Only one! They ignored God's command.
Because they disobeyed, sin entered the garden. Sin prevents us from having a relationship with God.
Jesus gave His life, shed His blood, if we ask Jesus he will cover our sin with His blood. Now if we want, we can have a relationship with God. Now, when God looks at us, (if we have accepted Christ's gift), God only sees the blood of Jesus.
I do believe in once saved always saved. Because I am not the one doing the saving. The one doing the saving is Jesus and He can do anything He wants to do. He said that if we were children of God, no one could take us out of His hand.
No, I don't believe it is a get out of jail free card we get to use over and over again. It is a life changing experience that changes our attitude. We stop wanting to mess up over and over again. My mother always said that when we accepted Christ's gift of salvation, our WANT TO changed.
The bible is my guidebook. I read the bible to know how God wants me to live my life.
I still sin, I'm still human, just like a child, I mess up, but God is still my father, I'm still His child. Just like a child, I want to please my Father.
I still have hard times. I have them because I live in a world still filled with sin. When I take my eyes off of Christ and allow the sin around me to permeate my life, that's when I get into trouble and mess up. (SIN)
My only question is this: Is life without Christ better than what you think life WITH Christ would be?
Librariantonna wrote: "My only question is this: Is life without Christ better than what you think life WITH Christ would be?"Tonna: You have come late to the party, so a little recap may be in order. Most of the ones discussing religion and how it relates to this thread grew up in Christian households. Everyone has their own story to tell, but what eventually led ME to leave organized religion was the hypocrisy and hate among "fellow Christians." I am a very spiritual person and admire the teachings of Jesus. I just do not see much evidence of his teachings present in organized churches today. I see little regard for the poor, the sick, the immigrant and the disenfranchised among evangelicals today. It really hurts my heart to see the open bigotry and disdain that comes from this sector of society. I do not believe in any kind of literal bible interpretation. One would really have to jump through some serious hoops to delude oneself that every word came directly from God. One anecdotal story from the Council of Nicea was that when the bishops could not agree on which texts to include in a canon, Constantine threw his arm across the table and the scrolls that landed on the floor were left out and those still on the table were included. You find comfort in your religion. I am happy you do. I did not. I was angry most of the time I was in church because I saw very little evidence of this Christian love. I have gone to many churches and not found much difference. When my children were small, I pulled them out of church and home-churched them. Having read many different translations of the bible, concordances and numerous scholarly books on Christianity, etc., I do not need others to tell me what the bible says. When Christians seek to evangelize and instead of bringing someone to the church, they drive them away, you would think they would find an alternative.
Librariantonna wrote: "Because the Left Behind Series touches on a more realistic version of the future, it scares the living daylights out of most people that do not believe in Christ as their personal Savior."No Librariantonna, it's the opposite of that. The only reason we haven't a similar discussion about Harry Potter books is that there isn't a large organized group of people that is willing to treat those books as a literature of fact.
Come to think of it there actually is a large organized group of people that takes HP books seriously - because they promote occultism, black magic, satanism, voting rights for women and whatnot.
Isn't it by any chance the same group of people that treat Left Behind seriously?
Now, that would be a strange coincidence!
Mary wrote: "Librariantonna wrote: "My only question is this: Is life without Christ better than what you think life WITH Christ would be?"Tonna: You have come late to the party, so a little recap may be in..."
Mary, I would challenge you to attend the church I do just one time to see if your mind might be changed.
One of the women in our church recently shared that until she came to Glenview Baptist in Independence, MO, she felt that she hated church for the same reasons you have stated that you do not go to a church. We are not a large congregation, we do accept anyone who wants to hear about Christ. We don't have a dress code; we sing a variety of songs in various formats. I am really sorry that people in your life were not what they should have been.
Mary wrote: "Librariantonna wrote: "My only question is this: Is life without Christ better than what you think life WITH Christ would be?"Tonna: You have come late to the party, so a little recap may be in..."
Mary, I would challenge you to attend the church I do just one time to see if your mind might be changed.
One of the women in our church recently shared that until she came to Glenview Baptist in Independence, MO, she felt that she hated church for the same reasons you have stated that you do not go to a church. We are not a large congregation, we do accept anyone who wants to hear about Christ. We don't have a dress code; we sing a variety of songs in various formats. I am really sorry that people in your life were not what they should have been.
Oh, please! The baptist church is one of the most hypocritical organizations there is!
Tim - what do you mean a vengeful God appeared in the 1800s? Did you somehow miss all the Scriptural history before that, or have you just never read a Bible? What happened to some obscure tribe in Africa is hardly applicable to the civilized world. World change is a given and currently finds Europe in decay (Africa always has been), but the dictates of the Bible are universal and constant. Ignore them at your peril from your little nonentity of a country as you jealously bash American superiority.
Robert wrote: "Ignore them at your peril from your little nonentity of a country as you jealously bash American superiority."Wow, but it is a nice example of Christian brotherly love and humility!
Robert, are you sure you are a follower of Jesus? Because I apparently read a completely different translation of the New Testament than the one you base your creed upon.
Librariantonna wrote: "Mary wrote: "Librariantonna wrote: "My only question is this: Is life without Christ better than what you think life WITH Christ would be?"Tonna: You have come late to the party, so a little re..."
Tonna, I have been challenged to attend by many. Everyone believes their church is "better." What percentage of your church's budget is designated to feeding, housing and clothing the poor? What percentage is budgeted for healthcare for thise who cannot afford it?
Robert wrote: "Tim - what do you mean a vengeful God appeared in the 1800s? Did you somehow miss all the Scriptural history before that, or have you just never read a Bible? What happened to some obscure tribe in..."Let me guess...Jonathan Edwards is your idol.
This is why I stay out of so-called "Christian"discussions. If anyone outside of their circle attacks their faith, the fangs and claws come out!
Robert: yes, I am deeply jealous my country has not (of late anyway) meddled in the affairs of other governments, overthrown democratically elected leaders, or killed millions of civilians. I am secretly ashamed to have had a president like Nelson Mandela. I view him as a coward, who had a huge army at his disposal, and never used it. All those diamonds in Namibia. All that oil in Angola, and that copper in Zambia. That could have been ours!
Tim - you conveniently forget that Mandela was a murderous terrorist and RSA has an apartheid past that still exists but is glossed over.
Jeffery wrote: "This is why I stay out of so-called "Christian"discussions. If anyone outside of their circle attacks their faith, the fangs and claws come out!"
Well that is why some of us should be careful with our words. I will try not to say anything harsh though sometimes the anger gets close to getting the best of me sometimes.
We must all remember, faithful people, that people who are harshly criticizing believers and the god of this world are mad at God, none of you. People must not take personal offense of it because that is in a way immature to lash out. Don't do it people.
Like the voice of message 1553 I like that this has become an open discussion. Finally we get to let others in on our say no matter how different the opinion may be. We should be discussing topics like this not keeping all of them inside whether we think this is a good or bad book series based on the bible.
I also like the "troll" that started this discussion by giving out a harsh comment expecting after walking away a "flame war" of some kind but it didn't happen. We are all hopefully giving our say and being open about what we believe. That is awesome in my opinion.
Everyone, speak up! We want to hear what you think about this.
Mary - I'll answer your question if no one else will. My church gives to established Christian poor making an effort to become "unpoor". If you wish to throw money away on hopeless bums who scam you that's your business - feel free to continue being their stooge. The government now provides healthcare for all if you haven't been keeping up with the news.
Sounds "Christ"ian to me, Robert. (NOT)
Mandela was labelled a 'terrorist' by the United States and ummm, let's see who else. Ah yes, the Apartheid government, which the United States supported covertly via the CIA in its war in Angola. So sorry, don't get self-righteous about Apartheid when your own government supported it's generals, Robert.
Mandela was labelled a 'terrorist' by the United States and ummm, let's see who else. Ah yes, the Apartheid government, which the United States supported covertly via the CIA in its war in Angola. So sorry, don't get self-righteous about Apartheid when your own government supported it's generals, Robert.
Robert wrote: "Mary - I'll answer your question if no one else will. My church gives to established Christian poor making an effort to become "unpoor". If you wish to throw money away on hopeless bums who scam yo..."So, what you are saying is you don't really do much for the poor.
As to healthcare: actually no they don't. Many states did not expand their Medicaid under the ACA so there are still many poor people without health insurance.
Mary - In reading Scripture, I find "poor" to mean: disabled from birth, unable to work, must beg. Current society has expanded that definition to every lazy bum with a hangnail. Yes, my church definitely should finance every malcontent who wants larger genitalia, a sex change, or an abortion - I'm sure that's what Jesus had in mind.
Tim - I'm not self-righteous; in fact, I really could care less. It's just I sometimes get tired of the mice that roared and belittle the U.S. role in world affairs. If RSA could handle it's own affairs, then our CIA wouldn't have to meddle in your puny efforts and you could stand alone on the world stage.
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