Day - Michael Cunningham - Jan- Feb 2024

[Alias Reader]

Chapter: It's House of Mirth Day

quote: "Don't you think Lily has choices?"

It's interesting how the characters in the book for the most part seem dissatisfied with their choices.

Dan and Isabel's marriage is on the rocks it seems.
Robbie- decided against med school and settled for 6th grade history teacher. He's stuck living in his sister's attic.

They all seem to dream about a different future and regret past decisions. This may change as I read on.

At the start of the novel Isabel sees an owl. Is that an omen?

Google seems to straddle the fence on its meaning.
For some, an owl symbolizes wisdom, power and spiritual awakening; for others, seeing an owl is a sure sign of bad luck.

[Alias Reader]

Chapter : It's the House of Mirth today.

The House of Mirth-Edith Wharton

I don't know if this was discussed. If not, I thought I would share a bit about Vivian Gornick. (Chess assigned the reading)

Sorry to go down all these rabbit holes. That is why it takes me a long time to finish books.



Vivian Gornick is an American radical feminist critic, journalist, essayist, and memoirist. Wikipedia
Born: 1935 (age 88 years), The Bronx, New York, NY

~~~Wiki bio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_...


~~~Here are a few of her Books
The Odd Woman and the City: A Memoir

Fierce Attachments

The Romance of American Communism

Unfinished Business: Notes of a Chronic Re-reader

The Solitude of Self: Thinking About Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Emma Goldman: Revolution as a Way of Life

Women in Science: Then and Now

Vivian Gornick

[Alias Reader]

Chapter : It's the House of Mirth today.

It made me smile when the author wrote, "Here come the writers who won't only rethink narrative without the marriage plot at its center, they'll convey women's freedoms within a marriage. Consider Mr. Dalloway."

Of course the book that Michael Cunningham won the 1999 Pulitzer for was The Hours-Michael Cunningham a tribute to Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Wolf

[Alias Reader]

Chapter: Although Robbie isn't packing up yet...

I read some, not all, of your posts and it seems I am enjoying the novel more then you two did.

I like his writing style and the way he can capture small things so perfectly. I think I mentioned this when at the start of the book he writes about Isabel looking out of her window in Brooklyn.

Once again in this chapter he made me smile. I can attest to his spot on take a about moving. :)

"...an apartment, any apartment, however diminutive, still seems to be made up of uncountable, generally inconsequential, items that for the most of their endless inanimate existences simply move from one place to another. They were acquire for valid reasons but have, for some time, existed strictly for the purpose of transit. They are held and examined only when they're about to be moved to their next location."

[Alias Reader]

Chapter: The park is still wintery its grass sere and its trees bare"

The section where Dan is cataloguing all of his brother's faults.
I love this line.
"Dan is the museum's curator, and its sole visitor."

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "I just started this chapter. Forgive me if you already mentioned this. I'm trying not to read too many posts as I don't want spoilers. ..."

No need to worry about repeating. There's not much i would mind revisiting in this novel, particularly if it rings a bell...or memory.

I've not seen anyone crying on a subway but i don't travel that way with any regularity. Of course, it only takes one time.

Btw, i found that mention of Henry James amusing. That "look" described is something i have seen on the subway.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter-- Women crying on the subway.

Sometimes the very thing you are striving for, once you get it, you realize it really isn't all it's cracked up to be. ..." POST 48.

Agreed. I think this is mostly what Isabel is experiencing. When her life is described, it sounds as though she set goals, then usually achieved them. Given her discontent, it may be that she was coming to that same realization. One wonders what she expected from each triumph. Or, perhaps, they were short-lived accomplishments with a lingering, longer life before the next accomplished goal?

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "This has me wondering why his followers don't seem to notice or care....
1- People really only really care or focus on their own lives.

2- The followers on Insta want to believe in the fantasy so ignore
anything that challenges that reality. ..."

In Posts 22-26 or so we discussed this aspect of social media, Alias. We had the same questions. I think Joy made a good observation about it in post 23, where she wrote: " Perhaps this is the modern-day incarnation of the fairy tale.

People may not care/notice because they understand it's part myth. Or maybe they read it the way some people read poems--if it "clicks", it's fine, if not--move to the next one.

Maybe? this aspect of the novel intrigues me still.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:

post 57

"Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter-- Women crying on the subway.

Sometimes the very thing you are striving for, once you get it, you realize it really isn't all it's cracked up to be. ..." POST 48.

Agr... I think this is mostly what Isabel is experiencing. When her life is described, it sounds as though she set goals, then usually achieved them. Given her discontent, it may be that she was coming to that same realization. One wonders what she expected from each triumph. Or, perhaps, they were short-lived accomplishments with a lingering, longer life before the next accomplished goal?
"

I'm still in 2020 section. However, it seems she set goals that society expected her to achieve. Having children, for example, I don't think was something she wanted as much as it was what everyone else does. Possible marriage also wasn't really what she wanted.

[Alias Reader]

I'm started the afternoon of April 5, 2020 section.

Chapter. Wolfe-man

Quote: Robbie, as it turns out, is the one who go on the train.

I think Isabel is stuck in a no mans land now. She has children and a husband, so she feels trapped. She can't get on that "train" and just up and leave. She gave everything to her job at the magazine. Now that job is being phased out. Everything she thought she wanted is falling apart.

[Alias Reader]

2020
Chapter:
To: Robert Walker
Subject: Re: Today
From Isabel Walker
Hi, Robbie

Quote: I can barely remember a time when you and I weren't quoting Miss Edie to each other. That was our favorite all-time movie, I guess maybe it still is.

Is is reference to the movie Grey Gardens ? Great movie. I havne't seen it in ages.

[Alias Reader]

2020
Chapter: Garth checks his messages again.

He is quoting Hamlet. "All occasions do inform against me, and spur my dull revenge. Act IV scene 4

There are so many references to Shakespeare in novels. I haven't read him since high school. To be honest I didn't enjoy it very much. I keep saying I should read Hamlet again. Maybe next year I'll put in on my Determination List.

Do you all enjoy his plays? Have you read any since you've been out of school ?

[Alias Reader]

2020
Chapter
There's a song inside the song..

Quote: A surprise: it seems he was more satisfied by the yearning to back to writing songs then he is now that he's writing them..."

Perhaps the pandemic is giving them a chance to step back and reflect on where they are in life. It seems Isabel and Dan are none to happy with the way their life as turned out.

I wonder how many people, who were forced to step off the hamster wheel during the pandemic, found their lives wanting upon reflection.

Is that why drug use increased so much? I am sure books will be written. Perhaps, "The Pandemic of our Discontent".

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:
post 17
Then, suddenly, last night, i began reading the "After Dan and Nathan" section, my p. 73, the narrator began to bug me. What the?

I cannot figure out why but the voice seemed snarkier, although, in checking back, i see it's been there all along. Maybe i was in sync with that voice & its observations but ceased liking the thoughts offered?

Is "After Dan and Nathan" the opening lines of a chapter? I having trouble locating it.

Thanks !

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:

Post 20

" So in addition to any personal questions she may have about her life, Isabel, knowing she is the sole incoming-earning member of her family must consider that, as well. Gosh, not only am i unsure of my job security, i also am not sure i even want all this in the first place.."

I didn't take notice that she was the sole breadwinner. That does add an additional burden to her situation. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote:
Post 21

"Isabel, on the other hand, seems to be confronting for the first time the truth about her life--that everything she's achieved with her "ferocity" ("I will be sought after, I will have boyfriends, I'll be president of the senior class") still doesn't provide fulfillment..."

Yes ! That is exactly how am interpreting Isabel.

I'm glad you picked up on the word ferocity. Interesting choice the author made.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:
post 22

Perhaps Robbie has greater self-insight because moving away from the family has been on his mind longer. Or maybe he is just more open to it.."

He also doesn't have the obligations Isabel has. He isn't married or in a relationship. He doesn't have kids. He also isn't tied to the teaching job.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: "And what about that Wolfe thing? I'm amused by the auto "likes" some of their followers give. And the fact that Robbie notes that but doesn't seem to consider it further.

Beyond this board, i do not often "like" or even read stuff where that is an option. Likely Robbie doesn't really care, he just wants as many followers as he can get. I believe this is true of most who render offerings on such venues but i'm not sure. I know they help many, too. My point is that i wonder that this doesn't bother Robbie and his mocking self.
."

Dan also is focused on the likes he gets on YouTube.

The more "Likes" you get on YouTube is tied to how much YouTube pays you. I don't think Facebook or Insta pays you. But I could be wrong on that front.

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote:
Post #23

I've made it a bit further into the book--am now at the beginning of the chapter that starts with "The park is still wintry..." (page 87).

The snark continues, more so with some characters than others and definitely more noticeably in the dialogue. I know it's intended to reflect the voices of different personalities, but I find the changes in tone jarring.."

I think the change in tone is to reflect the different relationship Garth and Dan have as brothers compared to Robbie and Isabel.

Add in the unhappy situation they both are in. Dan, whose own music career is floundering or I guess just past it's sell by date. Garth has an unconventional relationship with his child as a sperm donor and his unconventional art that I don't get the sense that he is able to sell.

I'm still in 2020. I think the pandemic weighed heavy on most. For some it was a total lack of contact with others. Garth only seeing his child from the street looking through a window. Then others, like Dan, who used to have space from the people he lived with, now is with them 24/7. That can certainly get on ones last nerve. :)

Anyway, I think the change in tone fit Dan and Garths relationship as the pandemic weighs down on them.

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote:
post 23

But for many, it's an avenue for "putting themselves out there", sometimes (often?) in a very curated/filtered way such that they're really creating an idealized persona of themselves.

Totally ! If you read someone's FB feed it's easy to think everyone else is having fun and has a spectacular life. People tend to only post (boast) about the good things. That can leave some feeling less than. I've read studies show a relationship to the hours spent on social media (Facebook, Insta,) and depression.

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote: "
post 23

II don't get the sense, though, that Robbie (and Isabel) continue with Wolfe just for likes and followers. Based on the passage below, I think Wolfe has evolved from an imaginary childhood defender to an adult representation of the type of person they wish they could be, and they create for Wolfe the life they wish they could lead. I think they're genuinely invested in Wolfe and perhaps, in a strange way, even living vicariously through him."

I get the sense that the line between reality and fantasy has blurred for both Robbie and Isabel. Wolfe has become real to them.

Maybe I'll change my mind as I read on.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:
Post 25

Again, it may be my fractured reading but i couldn't remember that Odin was a child, not a dog. Hmmm.."

I'm enjoying the book and particularly the writing more than you are.

That said, my niece has a dog and his name is Odin. LOL I was surprised that that was the name of the child. So that is one I didn't forget. :)

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote:
Post 26

P.S. I tried linking to the Tufts U website on social media and to the Wikipedia entry on catfishing, and discovered that external links aren't allowed. You should be able to find both by Googling, though, if you're interested."

Joy, I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I just copy/paste the link.

Here is the wiki on catfishing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catfishing

I think this is the Tuffs + Social media link.
https://communications.tufts.edu/mark...

[Alias Reader]

2020
Chapter: From Chess Mullins
Subject: Re
To Garth Byrne
Garth, I'm glad you go to see Odin....

I wasn't expecting that reaction from Chess. :(
I kind of feel bad for Garth.

[Alias Reader]

2020
Chapter: Dear Violet, 15 years from now.

What did you make of this letter?

It seemed to me that Isabel knows she is on some level failing as a mom.

Did the pandemic make her introspective ? Guilty ?

I'm not sure how I feel about the letter. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Chapter: April 5, 2020
Dear Isabel. Letter number two.

:(

I just finished the 2020 section.

Any thoughts on these letters? Letters not really sent. Perhaps at a future date to be read. More like a journal or a confession.

[Alias Reader]

I had to stay up late to finish.

I found this quiet novel compelling and the prose gorgeous.

I gave it a 4/5 rating.

[madrano]

SPOILERS BELOW!!

Alias Reader wrote: "I'm still in 2020 section. However, it seems she set goals that society expected her to achieve. Having children, for example, I don't think was something she wanted as much as it was what everyone else does..."

Included in that was the job she really wanted, which we was witnessing wither away, partly due to technology. Being the household wage earner, there is even more for her to consider than, perhaps, women in a dual-income home. However, possibly she cannot see that each family sets their own priorities, based on family needs.

I recall a woman in the '80s telling our NOW group she couldn't quit her job because then the family couldn't afford their motorboat. The other 9 of us in the group were quite surprised that this was the sole reason she mentioned. But she was adamant that this is what made her family blossom. Who were we to doubt it?

My point is that i'm not sure Isabel has had a reason behind her goals, other than they were what she &/or society expected of her. Was the dream of living outside the city the only dream she had? If so, she accomplished that...and it was as worn out as their Brooklyn place.

Were there other personal desires mentioned, from her? I don't know, maybe i'm off.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "I had to stay up late to finish.

I found this quiet novel compelling and the prose gorgeous.

I gave it a 4/5 rating." POST 76.

I'm glad you found it rewarding. I agree that the prose was well done. There are things i liked very much--descriptions of land, the scenery and even his descriptions of homes. But the people were all a miss for me. Even Violet, for pity's sake!

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "madrano wrote:
Then, suddenly, last night, i began reading the "After Dan and Nathan" section, my p. 73, the narrator began to bug me. What the?

I cannot figure out why but the voice seem..." POST 64.

In my eBook, it's page 74. It's the chapter after the cry on the Subway.

Now that i am finished with the book, i realized the snarkiness seemed more directed to the thoughts about Nathan & Violet. And, from that, mostly looking ahead in their lives. One reason this bothers me is because it seemed the narrator might have been working out his own issues, what went wrong in the children he knew. I cannot now recall exactly where s/he went over the line but i think it had something to do with ballet lessons.

ANYway, as i became more comfortable with his writing, i continued to find bits thrown in which was a sort of summation of lives at the moment and a reading into the future. It was that which bugged me, well into the Afternoon chapters.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "2020
Chapter:
Quote: I can barely remember a time when you and I weren't quoting Miss Edie to each other. That was our favorite all-time movie, I guess maybe it still is.

Is is reference to the movie Grey Gardens ? Great movie. I havne't seen it in ages..." POST 61

Yes, that is what i believed. I was surprised to see it mentioned and am unclear why. Was it just to illustrate further the kind of children they were, quoting from those women in the film?

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "The more "Likes" you get on YouTube is tied to how much YouTube pays you. I don't think Facebook or Insta pays you. But I could be wrong on that front...." POST 68

Oh, i didn't realize that about YouTube! I'll have to start "liking" videos i've see!

Thanks for that info, Alias. If Facebook, which i once used regularly, rewards posting "Likes", i am unaware of it. And i have received "likes" but from family. LOL!

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Garth only seeing his child from the street looking through a window. Then others, like Dan, who used to have space from the people he lived with, now is with them 24/7. That can certainly get on ones last nerve. :)

Anyway, I think the change in tone fit Dan and Garths relationship as the pandemic weighs down on them..."

You make good points, Alias, about confinement of these people. The first time it really struck me was Garth & how he is reduced to seeing his son from the street. Then i really began to see those notes confinement notes better.

Oddly, your comment about Dan & the encroachment upon the home he usually had to himself was telling. It reminded me of when (my husband) Dan retired. It took some readjusting to another person being with me all day long! He was loving it & i was wondering how to get him out of the house. LOL--at least i had that option.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote:
post 77

"My point is that i'm not sure Isabel has had a reason behind her goals, other than they were what she &/or society expected of her. Was the dream of living outside the city the only dream she had? If so, she accomplished that...and it was as worn out as their Brooklyn place..."

Yes. She didn't really seem to know what SHE wanted. As you noted, she was good at her job but she was basically outsourced by technology.

I'm not sure about the house in the country. Was that really what they planned for imaginary Woolfe?

Though many in NYC during the pandemic felt trapped.

All in all a sad family. I was glad to hear the son saw a therapist. I think the whole family needed to see one.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: "
post 79
Now that i am finished with the book, i realized the snarkiness seemed more directed to the thoughts about Nathan & Violet..."

I took that as normal siblings arguing all the time.

[Alias Reader]

madrano wrote: Alias Reader wrote: "2020
Chapter:
Quote: I can barely remember a time when you and I weren't quoting Miss Edie to each other. That was our favorite all-time movie, I guess maybe it still is.
--------
post 80
Is is reference to the movie Grey Gardens ? Great movie. I havne't seen it in ages..." POST 61

Yes, that is what i believed. I was surprised to see it mentioned and am unclear why. Was it just to illustrate further the kind of children they were, quoting from those women in the film?
.."

A lot of people quote that film. I guess it alluded to the fact that the mom and daughter were bizarre reclusive women who lived in poverty. With the pandemic we all became reclusive. Not sure. But that was a great film. Sad but great.

[Alias Reader]

Chapter: Dan stand on the front porch, with nocturnal chirps and hoots out there beyond the wash of the porch light.

(view spoiler)[ What did you think about Dan taking up drugs again at the end? That was kind of unexpected and sad. (hide spoiler)]

[Joy]

Lovely to return from my trip and find so many new messages in this thread! I'm traveling again starting tomorrow, so it may take me a while to get through and respond to all the new posts, but I'll get there.

Now that I'm using GR on my laptop again, I realized I missed your question below, Deb, as the "spoiler" html doesn't work in the mobile version of GR--I could tell you had inserted a spoiler but couldn't expand it to read the text.

(view spoiler)[madrano wrote (message 40): "My biggest question is whether you think anything will really change?"

What an excellent question! I think Isabel will change. By separating from Dan and getting the cabin in the woods, she's actually already started to change. She's actively making decisions instead of blindly following a path like she'd done before.

In the last chapter, she thinks about finding a new job, potentially meeting someone new on a dating app, and moving on with her life:

There's a life for her. She won't live on unimpeded. Some of the damage can't be undone, but she'll live on. She might be happy at odd moments, and maybe for longer than that. It strikes her as possible. It'll be up to Dan to find his own way, by himself. She wants him to be happy too, she does want that for him, but there's not much she can do for him, anymore.

I think this shows growth. Wolfe's final post is her way of giving Robbie the life he always wanted but never found while alive. Now she'll go out there to look for the life she wants.

Dan, on the other hand, seems stuck. He's unable to properly mourn Robbie because, from his perspective, no one acknowledges the impact of Robbie's death on him. He's also still clinging to the idea of "a renewed future with Isabel"...an indication that perhaps he doesn't really know or understand her. In some ways, he's even regressing--going back to his previous drug habit.

Chess and Garth are, I think, a work in progress. Can Garth change enough to be a father to Odin and can Chess change enough to give him a(nother) chance? The interaction between Garth and Nathan seems to suggest Garth does have it in him. (hide spoiler)]

[Alias Reader]

Joy wrote:
post 87
I think this shows growth. Wolfe's final post is her way of giving Robbie the life he always wanted but never found while alive. Now she'll go out there to look for the life she wants."

I agree, Joy. I also think letting go of the fictional Wolfe is key. She is stepping out of the fantasy world and into reality.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "I'm not sure about the house in the country. Was that really what they planned for imaginary Woolfe? ..."POST 83.

I was delving back into those early chapters to locate when i began to see more snark. In the process, i see that in their childhood, Isabel & Robbie adopted the idea of the huge country house from a 5th grade teacher, complete with 3 or 4 dogs. However, there is no indication how often they discussed it, though. Is it only since Wolfe arrived in their lives?

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "I took that as normal siblings arguing all the time..." POST 84

As mentioned above, i tried finding the initial words which set my snark detector off and cannot. It was something about Violet and dancing, i think. I couldn't find anything that sounded snarky, other than thoughts Nathan had about his sister, so you may be right.

So i will drop this line, although i still think the narrator was snarky about many things in contemporary society, as though s/he was apart from it. Which i don't believe for a second.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "A lot of people quote that film. I guess it alluded to the fact that the mom and daughter were bizarre reclusive women who lived in poverty. With the pandemic we all became reclusive. Not sure. But that was a great film. Sad but great ..." POST 85.

I didn't realize folks were quoting those two so often! To me, it was a sort of oddity but nothing was said that i would think to quote. Funny, that this happens some places and times.

Btw, am i remembering correctly, that there was a documentary, as well as a motion picture about the mom-daughter? Well, i 'll just go check it out...hold on...

Ok, yes, there were two films. HBO made one, which starred Jessica Lange and Drew Barrymore. The genesis of this was an '70s documentary from Albert and David Maysles. And there was a musical, starring Christine Ebersole and Mary Louise Wilson in '06.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter: Dan stand on the front porch, with nocturnal chirps and hoots out there beyond the wash of the porch light.

[spoilers removed]" POST 86

This was sad, imo, but it also led me to wonder if (view spoiler)[any reconciliation could occur. That he was doing this while apparently being the primary caretaker of the children could develop into all sorts of things, the worst of which would be the youngsters observing someone they love "endorsing" drug use. (hide spoiler)]

[madrano]

Joy wrote: "Lovely to return from my trip and find so many new messages in this thread! I'm traveling again starting tomorrow, so it may take me a while to get through and respond to all the new posts, but I'l..."

POST 87.

You are a trooper, Joy, to keep up with this thread while on the road. As you may be able to tell, i sometimes dive deep into minor things, which really don't need a reply, it's just me musing "aloud", so to say.

As to this, from the SPOILER html: (view spoiler)[I think this shows growth. Wolfe's final post is her way of giving Robbie the life he always wanted but never found while alive. Now she'll go out there to look for the life she wants.

I like that thought, Joy. She wrapped up Robbie's life, almost in order to work on her own. She knows that fantasy is gone. (hide spoiler)]

[madrano]

As i mentioned in above posts, i went back to parts of the "Morning" section of the book to try to find where the snarkiness bothered me. (Without success, see post 90.)

In the process i noted something which escaped my notice/memory, as i continued to read the book. I just want to mention it in passing, to see if they mean anything to anyone else.

In the chapter that begins "After Dan & Nathan", it is suggested that the adults have wondered that Violet, "seems to times to know that which she could not possibly know." In Isabel's words, "God, I hope she isn't psychic."

Additionally, when Violet tries to make sure that Robbie will return when he's gone to her room, she says, "But you'll come back." In reply, he states, "Sweetheart, if i ever go anywhere, I'll always come back." (view spoiler)[Given what is shared in "Evening" chapter, what do you think?

Is she psychic? Do you believe in such things? Is she unconsciously self-fulfilling Robbie's quote from above? Will she outgrow it? (hide spoiler)]

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "At the start of the novel Isabel sees an owl. Is that an omen?

Google seems to straddle the fence on its meaning.
For some, an owl symbolizes wisdom, power and spiritual awakening; for others, seeing an owl is a sure sign of bad luck...."POST 51.

An owl is mentioned in each section of the book, so there is something about it the author/narrator wants us to consider. But which? In one of the earlier posts i mentioned that an owl heard hooting is, in some Native American tribes, considered an omen that someone will die. Is this a bad luck sign? As i mentioned, it would be a comfort to me, telling me to reach out to the person i might think will die. But what if i'm wrong? If it's someone totally unconnected, it's not a positive, i guess. I'm not sure. Certainly, it would have me listening closer when i heard an owl hoot.

And does the color make a difference?

It's all very different but is likely really to be significant if we read into it. I like that the owl in ancient Greece seemed to be just a sign of Athena, good or bad, not stated. She certainly brought both to people.

I never gave owls much thought until i learned about that Native American belief. I haven't seen many in the wild, though. I can only think of two, but one fell out of a tree in my own backyard. No one i know died soon after. Take that for what ye may.

[madrano]

Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter : It's the House of Mirth today.

The House of Mirth-Edith Wharton

I don't know if this was discussed. If not, I thought I would share a bit about Vivian Gornick. ..."

I love such rabbit holes. I have heard of Gornick since my neo-feminist days but haven't read any books by her. That you delved into her draws attention to something i hadn't much considered when reading the book.

As i mentioned elsewhere, the Chess/Garth relationship seemed to me to be superfluous but, of course, it isn't to the author. It seems to be a way to contrast a married commitment, with children being understood as part of the package, and a parenting decision without benefit/onus of partnering. Neither seem fully satisfactory--is that Cunningham's point? All choices have their issues to overcome through the years, many of which aren't considered when planning for children.

Initially, i felt Chess had it right, setting guidelines, then adjusting them to include Garth, as he seemed to want more. However, again, as i reread those earlier chapters this morning (REMIND ME to not do that again! lol) i realized that Chess not only agreed to the changed "rules" but exploits them.

To wit--Garth is late (again), so she leaves Odin with Dan & Robbie. That's the child's uncle only if you have agreed to that position. It seems to me that she could have accepted Garth's increased role without including his brother Dan & family

Yes, i am nitpicking, but i think there is some aspect to her choices she doesn't fully consider. Or, as psychologists might declare, unconscious decisions she doesn't want to admit. ;-)

[Alias Reader]

Since we all have finished the novel, I'm going to post.

Warning: from this point forward there will be spoilers for the entire book---

That would be more for anyone who happens upon the thread and reads it in the future. Though I don't know how likely anyone would read the thread anyway. :)

[Alias Reader]

Deb, when you mention "the narrator" and snarky are you referring to Cunningham as the narrator or to a particular character narrating?

Perhaps what you take as snarky, I took as sometimes jokes are depression and sadness. If so, it only goes to show that everyone who read the same book, reads a different book. :)

I thought the only one who gets snarky a bit is the brother with Violet. However, like I said up thread, that sounded like a typical teenage boy who didn't want his litter sister bothering him.

[Alias Reader]

Re: Grey Gardens

madrano wrote:

Btw, am i remembering correctly, that there was a documentary, as well as a motion picture about the mom-daughter? Well, i 'll just go check it out...hold on...

Ok, yes, there were two films. HBO made one, which starred Jessica Lange and Drew Barrymore. The genesis of this was an '70s documentary from Albert and David Maysles. And there was a musical, starring Christine Ebersole and Mary Louise Wilson in '06.."

I've only seen the documentary.

[madrano]

A final comment about the chapter on The House of Mirth. It is the novel i most think about when it comes to Edith Wharton and i am surprised at how often my mind turns to it.

I liked it for the outcome but i keep coming back to the fact that Lily considered somewhat limited options. She didn't consider moving too far away from New York society, where she could develop new relationships. Not only marital possibilities but ways to enhance her life alone. In the era in which the book covers, going west, be it Chicago or the Far West was no longer pioneering adventures. Societal trails had been established. Possibly because my family moved west during these same years, i can see this easily.

However, it wouldn't suit Wharton's intentions at all, so i get it. Still, it would have been nice for Lily to at least consider, even if for a fleeting moment. It makes Lily less interesting because she could not train her mind away from the societal ones.

Just saying. lol