"Cloud Atlas" by David Mitchell (April/May Fiction Group Read)

[Greg]

Pink wrote: "Greg, I agree with all you say! [spoilers removed] After you've thought things over some more, I would recommend watching the film next, then looking at the links I posted afterwards, so not to spo..."

Thanks Pink, I will! :)

[Greg]

Shirley wrote: "I'm going to have to look again at the Frobisher second section. I too felt let down by Frobisher, but I think too [spoilers removed]"

It could be Shirley, but it doesn't seem (view spoiler)[that his career went well anyway, in that there are only a handful of copies of his work in existence despite its brilliance. His work is almost completely unknown. Do you think if he lived his career would've gone worse?

I do agree that he goes against the status quo though. His music, his art is clearly what he gives most of his energy to.

I just find it hard to accept that his death is what is "right." Perhaps Mitchell believes that though. Perhaps Mitchell intended it as you say, but somehow I wanted more from Frobisher than that. (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Greg -- thanks for sharing your thoughts. I puzzled over the birthmark as well but not as deeply as you and some of the others here have.

(view spoiler)[One thing that bothered me about the birthmark symbolizing reincarnation is the varying time gaps between the sections. I know very little about religious beliefs regarding reincarnation but had thought that the soul left the dead person and entered a new baby instantaneously (isn't that how they search for the Dali Lama?).

So are there reincarnations between Adam Ewing and Robert Frobisher (and/or other sections) than we are just not shown? Or is the soul being kept in some sort of limbo awaiting the "right" person to inhabit? If that is the case, what determines the right person or time? (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Some good questions Leslie - I am also uncertain about the reincarnation, though there are several strong hints, (view spoiler)[not only that quote in the Sloosha's Crossin' section but sprinkled throughout, including the Siddhartha statues in the Sonmi section. In another section though, there's at least one point where a character belittles the idea as "hippy dippy" or something like that. (hide spoiler)] Who knows? It could be more of an inherited trait thing as Terry says too.

In terms of Buddhist beliefs, a close friend was a practitioner of the Mahayana style Buddhism prevalent in Japan (quite different than Tibetan Buddhism) - he was Japanese. He told me that sometimes based on what people do in their life, they do not immediately come back as human. For instance, after (view spoiler)[Frobisher's suicide (hide spoiler)], his spirit might have to spend several lifetimes as insects or animals until it reached the point of being reincarnated as human again. Also, I vaguely recall a Buddhist equivalent of limbo. So in terms of human lives, there could be some time inbetween.

There's even a Buddhist hell, but that hell is not eternal. Another friend, a Chinese Buddhist, used to go back to China for a weeks period of fasting, prayers, and chanting at a big temple for those souls in hell to help pull some of those spirits up in enlightenment so they could once again be born on Earth as living creatures (insects, whatever) and once again start to climb the ladder back up to human existence again. I believe Mahayana Buddhism is prevalent in China as well, though it's different than Japanese Buddhism in some ways.

Anyone who is a practitioner themselves, please do correct any errors I've made in my explanations! I make no claims to expertise, and I really apologize for any misunderstandings on my part!!

[Shirley]

Greg wrote: "Shirley wrote: "I'm going to have to look again at the Frobisher second section. I too felt let down by Frobisher, but I think too [spoilers removed]"

It could be Shirley, but it doesn't seem that..."

Yes, it doesn't seem "right", as you say. It's a bit of a sticking point for me, too.

[dely]

Leslie wrote: "Greg -- thanks for sharing your thoughts. I puzzled over the birthmark as well but not as deeply as you and some of the others here have.

One thing that bothered me about the birthmark symboliz..."

This is the reason why I didn't like this book.
First of all, I apologize for my opinions because usually I don't like to discuss a book I didn't like with people that liked it a lot. I worry that my opinions could bother or offend someone though I really hope this won't happen.

Reading the book I was like Greg, trying to understand everything and to figure out a lot of hints. At the end I also watched the movie and looked for informations on the internet but I couldn't find answers. Usually I like it when a book is thought provoking and when I must try to figure out the various links among the characters or the events but at the end I want and need to understand. This didn't happen with this book and this bothered me a lot. Everything was too vague for my tastes and I think that the author himself hadn't answers; he put together a lot of interesting topics to please readers but he wasn't enough able in my opinion to give a sense to all this. Well, I also didn't like the meaning at the end of the book; not because I don't agree with it but because I found it too obvious after all those pages and my interest created by the connected stories.

About reincarnation, I know only a little bit about Hinduism. Like Greg said, it isn't immediate, there are seven heavens and seven hells called "loka" where the souls go before reincarnating. In which loka a soul goes and how long it must stay there depends of its behavior on earth. It can also happen that a person reincarnates in an animal if its behavior wasn't good during his former life. Reincarnation isn't always an improvement of the former life, it depends on our behavior.

[Shirley]

dely wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg -- thanks for sharing your thoughts. I puzzled over the birthmark as well but not as deeply as you and some of the others here have.

One thing that bothered me about the bir..."

Hi dely, no need to apologise at all - it's good to have everyone's opinions, and this book has been a good one to discuss. And I agree with you that it's not at all clear just what the book is all about, and I did find that frustrating too - although overall I enjoyed it.

[dely]

Shirley wrote: "dely wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg -- thanks for sharing your thoughts. I puzzled over the birthmark as well but not as deeply as you and some of the others here have.

One thing that bothered me ..."

Thanks. You are right, this is a perfect book for a group read because there is a lot to talk about.

[Pink]

dely, no need to worry about your opinions offending. I know sometimes I like to keep quiet when everyone else loves a book that I hate, but there is no need. We all like different things and in this group we always discuss our thoughts and feelings passionately but with respect. It makes for a great discussion when we have different opinions. I agree this book does leave things very vague, otherwise we wouldn't need all this help trying to interpret exactly what was going on!

[Colleen]

I wish I knew how to use the spoiler code.

Does anyone know why it was called "Soap"? I get what it was used for and way, but since the language use was changed, just wondering what the significance was - a cleansing?

Also, what did people think of the Sloosha's Crossin' An Ev'rythin After? I thought one of the saddest, and an in-between character result from Robert & Somni et. al. as he somewhat voluntarily made a choice.

[Greg]

I hadn't thought about the word choice of 'Soap', but I like that Colleen .. yes, it does cleanse memories so I guess that makes sense. A euphemism to end all euphemisms then, sonce what's being washed away is knowledge, memory, the capacity for personality even. But that culture seems just the type to use euphemisms to the utmost!

The Sloosha's Crossin' sectiom was awfully sad, and despite the fact that on the surface the culture of that section was the most primitive, there was an awful lot going on in that section .. quite sophisticated actually - I found myself marking quite a few passages for further thought!

[Leslie]

Like Greg, I hadn't really thought about the term "soap" in the Sonmi parts. But it is a telling choice (though unappetizing!).

I didn't care much for the Sloosha's Crossin' section, partly because I found the writing difficult to read. It was depressing too...

[Shirley]

Leslie wrote: "Like Greg, I hadn't really thought about the term "soap" in the Sonmi parts. But it is a telling choice (though unappetizing!).

I didn't care much for the Sloosha's Crossin' section, partly bec..."

Yes, I found it hard-going because of the language, and it was very sad, and a bleak future. Made me read the rest of the book in a new light though. I guess that was the advantage of the way it was written in sections. Each time I read a new section, it changed my perspective slightly towards the other stories and of the book as a whole.

I hadn't thought through the connotations of "soap", but it just adds to the abuse there. Horrible.

[Greg]

It was difficult with the fictional dialect, but I did quite like parts of it. In several places, I was able to get past the dialect, and when I was able to see past that obscuring curtain, it was actually quite lovely! Also, lots of things that seemed central to the overall meaning cropped up in that section.

Depressing though - for sure that!

A few quotes from that section that struck me as important (beyond the one in my earlier spoiler about the atlas of clouds):

"I asked our visitor why Prescients with all their high Smart'n'all want to learn 'bout us Valleysmen? ....
Maronym said, ... any sort o' Smart is truesome Smart, old Smart or new, high Smart or low.

"Yay, Old Uns' Smart mastered sicks, miles, seeds, an' made miracles ord'nary, but it din't master one thing, nay, a hunger in the hearts o' humans, yay, a hunger for more."

A passage I thought was somewhat lovely despite the obscuring dialect:

"I glimpsed all the lifes my soul ever was till far far back b'fore the Fall, yay, glimpsed from a gallopin' horse in a hurrycane, but I cudn't describe 'em 'cos there ain't the words no more but well I mem'ry that dark Kolekole girl with her tribe's tatoo, yay, she was a saplin' bendin' an' I was that hurrycane. I blowed her she bent. I blowed harder she bent harder an' closer, then I was Crow's wings beatin' an' she was the flames lickin' an' when the Kolekole saplin' wrapped her willowy fingers around my neck, her eyes was quartzin' and she murmured in my ear. Yay, I will, again, an' yay, we will, again."

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I listened to this book on Audible and it was sooo much easier to understand that part than reading it! Also, the narrator's voice went really well with the dialog and the weird accent sound of of the made up words.

[Colleen]

Do you think the Luisa Rey mystery had something to do with the Fall?

[Leslie]

Colleen wrote: "Do you think the Luisa Rey mystery had something to do with the Fall?"

Interesting -- I hadn't thought of that!

I just popped in to say that this was certainly a good group read; lots of comments and different opinions.

[Shirley]

Yes, it's certainly been a good book to discuss!

[Greg]

Colleen wrote: "Do you think the Luisa Rey mystery had something to do with the Fall?"

While I was reading it, I definitely thought 100%, yes because in Sloosha's Crossin' it says, "that hunger what made Old Uns rip out an' boil up the seas an' poison soil with crazed atoms." Certainly sounds nuclear to me.

But then when Luisa Rey (view spoiler)[averted the catastrophe by exposing Seaboard Power's plan and deactivating the reactor (hide spoiler)] in a later section, that confused me and left me with two options.

1. The sections are somewhat of alternate histories - they don't exist in the same time line.

2. It wasn't the Luisa Rey event that caused the Fall but others like it. The Luisa Rey incident is portrayed as an example. Luisa Rey (view spoiler)[stopped that single incident and (hide spoiler)] perhaps delayed the fall, but later something else happened because the human flaws that precipitated it were still there and later something like that occurred somewhere else. Again from Sloosha's Crossin', "Yay, Old Un' mastered sicks, miles, seeds an' made miracles ord'nary, but it din't master one thing, nay, a hunger in the hearts o' humans, yay, a hunger for more."

The Sloosha's Crossin' really feels like a lynchpin for the book. So much meat in it.

[Greg]

Shirley wrote: "Yes, it's certainly been a good book to discuss!"

I completely agree!

Leslie, Shirley, Pink, Tracy, Colleen, Carol, dely, and everyone else who came back to converse with me long after finishing, thanks so much for sticking around in the thread and still responding to my random thoughts even though I started so late! I feel like the conversation during the book greatly enriched my understanding! I really appreciate it! :)

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Greg wrote: "Colleen wrote: "Do you think the Luisa Rey mystery had something to do with the Fall?"

While I was reading it, I definitely thought 100%, yes because in Sloosha's Crossin' it says, "that hunger w..."
I agree, Greg, that Luisa Rey averted the one incident, but being human nature, it must have cropped up again and wasn't stopped, which may have precipitated The Fall.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Greg wrote: "I hadn't thought about the word choice of 'Soap', but I like that Colleen .. yes, it does cleanse memories so I guess that makes sense. A euphemism to end all euphemisms then, sonce what's being wa..."

Ewww, yes!

[Pink]

Greg, I'm glad you enjoyed discussing it. I think Leslie was right, it was a great group read, probably because it was so complex and so there was lots to talk about!

[Leslie]

@Greg and Colleen - the ending made me think that there was at least the possibility of alternate histories. So what we see in Sloosha's Crossin' is one possibility (perhaps if (view spoiler)[Luisa had died, which is certainly what I thought at the end of the first Luisa Rey section! (hide spoiler)]) but not the only one.

[Colleen]

Greg wrote: "Shirley wrote: "Yes, it's certainly been a good book to discuss!"

I completely agree!

Leslie, Shirley, Pink, Tracy, Colleen, Carol, dely, and everyone else who came back to converse with me long..."

I started it late too, better than never, right? Glad people were discussing and could join in whenever. Makes for a good experience - thanks!

[dely]

Pink wrote: "dely, no need to worry about your opinions offending. I know sometimes I like to keep quiet when everyone else loves a book that I hate, but there is no need. We all like different things and in th..."

Thanks ;-)

Maybe, if I would have read it as a group read, I would have understood and liked it much more. So I agree, it's a good book for a discussion because there are a lot of things to talk about.