A Question of Upbringing by Anthony Powell (January 2024)

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Having scan read the posts and am barely a dozen pages in.
One thing that keep causing me to stop are the mentions of paintings.. Given that the entire sequence is based on a painting. maybe AP wants us to notice them.
Stringham is said to look like a "youner and far slighter Veronese;s Alenander" and from a specific painting. The painting is rather interesting . The room has two Prints of Race Horses.:
trimalchio: The original Trimalchio was a famous overspending party thrower, made fun of in Satyricon by Petronius
and
Parrisee There things get murky for me. Within Judaism, The Parrisee are about Rabbi's over the Priethood and in Christianity something else.

Then reduce all this down to race horses....

Then we get the picture of the family member getting married and what comes across, given the book title, A Question of Upbringing - several things,
1 Lots of Money
2 Divorce
3. Re marriage to GASP a French Woman!
All would have meant a lot in between wars. Even more so in the class/family conscious world of these Public Schools.

Widmerpool, gotta be something in that name-
From Wiki
Widmerpool Hall is a Grade II listed English country house in Widmerpool, Nottinghamshire.

Situated on the north side of the village, it was built in 1872 for Major George Coke Robertson to the designs of Henry Clutton. This neo-Gothic manor house was constructed of Bath and Clipsham stone. It has an Italianate, gargoyle adorned clock-tower without a clock; the space for the clock was left blank out of respect for Robertson's recently deceased wife.[1]

Widmerpool, Nottinghamshire. The history of the village is intrinsically linked to that of the family of the manor. A manor house is thought to have been present since Henricus de Diddisworth adopted the name of Widmerpoole to gain the estate for his family in 1216. A "Widmerpoole" family is recorded in 1283 in the village and a John de Widmerpoole attended a parliament in York in 1333.[4] Since that time ownership of parts of the estate was, in the 17th and 18th centuries, contested by the Heriz, Pierrepont and Cromwell families it remained in Widmerpoole ownership until the early 19th century. The estate was then acquired by the Robertson (sometimes spelt Robinson) family. The Robertsons, famous for their jam, then embarked upon rebuilding of much of the estate including some of the oldest surviving buildings such as Gardener's Cottage, the Coach House, Home Farm and the Old School House.


Lastly from The House of Names
Early Origins of the Widmerpool family

The surname Widmerpool was first found in Nottinghamshire where they held a family seat as Lords of the Manor. The Saxon influence of English history diminished after the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The language of the courts was French for the next three centuries and the Norman ambience prevailed. But Saxon surnames survived and the family name was first referenced in the year 1454 Nicholas Wydmerpole when they held lands.

There is a family coat of arms, maybe someone good with images will import a copy for us.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Back again, top of my copy page 13. Widmerpool got Akworth sacked. Wait a sec, this unassuming boy almost invisible, except for his coat got a fellow student sacked.

Further the suggestion is of a unallowed relationship between students, AKA homosexual, and Widmerpool gets so excited over it, he may have some of the same tendancies...

anyone else?

[Nigeyb]

I skated over those points


That’s a lot of detail, admirably so

The Anthony Powell society website has essays on each of the novels. There will be more information on the paintings. I don’t recall any great discussion on the origins of his surname

His family were in manure 🤠

Hilary Spurling’s guide is another helpful resource

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Nigeyb wrote: "I skated over those points


That’s a lot of detail, admirably so

The Anthony Powell society website has essays on each of the novels. There will be more information on the paintings. I don’t rec..."

Ihad hped to find out that the name had a translation. Otherwise I question how much AP wanted to dired atention to the real Widmerpool family , manor or village.

On my other point, is there anyone of our few , central characters, so far introduced Not touched by family scandal? Does this tell us something about everyone's up bringing?

I was a tad confused by the discussion of Eton , but now I get, that the novel will eventually get us to Eton

[Nigeyb]

I don't think Eton is ever named but as lots of the novels are based on AP's life, experiences and acquaintances we know it is Eton that is being described

[Nigeyb]

Widmerpool is inspired by Col. Denis Capel-Dunn, under whom AP served in the Cabinet Office. Plus an element from Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller's schooldays. Apparently. I don't know anything about either

[Roman Clodia]

Interesting research on the name Widmerpool - and how interesting about Robertson, the jam people. Generations of us grew up with their Golden Shred marmalade and, my favourite, Silver Shred (lemon marmalade with thick peel). I try not to eat sugar so they're out now.

I thought the sound of Widmerpool is so evocative in a negative way: it made me think of 'widdershins' i.e. the wrong direction, and the watery dampness of rock pools where creepy things might live.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Nigeyb wrote: "Widmerpool is inspired by Col. Denis Capel-Dunn, under whom AP served in the Cabinet Office. Plus an element from Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller's schooldays. Apparently. I don't know anything abou..."

I know those are real names and there may be good solid citizens doing good things while responding with a cheery hello when they hear their names. But am I the only one hearing Monty Python come alive?

On a more serious note, I think it is hard for a 21st century American to understand just how assumed it was that the elite, esp the educated and moneyed elite were expected to serve "God and Country"
Members of the House Of Commons were un-paid, it was an expected public service.
From the American Heritage Dictionary
noblesse oblige /ō-blēzh′/
noun

Benevolent, honorable behavior considered to be the responsibility of persons of high birth or rank. The honourable obligation that is the responsibility of those of high rank; in American English this often includes the expectation of benevolent actions such as helping those less fortunate.

Today if people use the term are all it is being sarcastic or at least cynical. This is clearly the interwar years it was still a real expectation- tho maybe on the wane....

BTW there ma yhave been some uncertainty on this point. At least two adult family members are stated as being employed in the negotiations over the final terms for ending WW I.

Sorry another thought.

It was strongly felt that WW I had killed off the best of the best, no where more so than among the generation that would have been the same age, or older brothers to those in this book. Total guess on my part: is Powell giving us his version of Bertie Wooster and the notion of leftovers after the best are left in Flanders Field?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Origins stories can be very rich , Pg 24 our narrator is possibly related to Jenkins, as in the war of Jenkins Ear:
From Wiki
The War of Jenkins' Ear (Spanish: Guerra del Asiento, lit. 'War of the Agreement') was a conflict lasting from 1739 to 1748 between Britain and Spain. The majority of the fighting took place in New Granada and the Caribbean Sea, with major operations largely ended by 1742. It was related to the 1740 to 1748 War of the Austrian Succession. The name was coined in 1858 by British historian Thomas Carlyle, and refers to Robert Jenkins, captain of the British brig Rebecca, whose ear was allegedly severed by Spanish coast guards while searching his ship for contraband in April 1731.

Response to the incident was tepid until opposition politicians in the British Parliament, backed by the South Sea Company, used it seven years later to incite support for a war against Spain, hoping to improve British trading opportunities in the Caribbean.

IMHO the reference might have been understood to be burlesque

[Roman Clodia]

Me too on the Monty Python-esque names!

But I think MPs (i.e. House of Commons) started being paid before WW1 - possibly members of the House of Lords weren't paid though at this period, I'm not sure.

Interesting point about the lost generation. There was some agitation at the time about the incompetence of officers (according to contemporary poetry and other WW1 literature) and their old school tactics in the face of modern warfare. The war certainly contributed to breaking down some of that fixed idea about social elitism but it also managed to survive to this day (and always will as long as we have a monarchy).

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Me too on the Monty Python-esque names!

But I think MPs (i.e. House of Commons) started being paid before WW1 - possibly members of the House of Lords weren't paid though at this period, I'm not ..."

Thanks for the correction on pay in the House.

The feeling was that WW I was a case of Lions being lead by Jackasses. There is some push back on that, but the senior most leadership was hardly brought up to fight industrial warfare. That was being invented during this war.

I am about 1/3 into the book and one theme seems to be a less than awestruck attitude towards the Army and wartime service.

What is it with Babs and Lady McReith? Long walks and kissing?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Nigeyb wrote: "I skated over those points


That’s a lot of detail, admirably so

The Anthony Powell society website has essays on each of the novels. There will be more information on the paintings. I don’t rec..."

Thanks for the ref to the AP Society web site. Kinda took the fun out of researching the pictures, but at least I got them right. Plus there were a lot I have read past.

I kinda felt the group missed some of the history behind Grognards. The term was applied to the French Cabbie, and is just a lovely reference.
The term is more or less translated as a grumbling curmudgeon. As said in the Book Napoleon had a specially unit of experienced (10 year or more campaigners), with a height requirement. They were his "old Guard" and to him his "Old Complainers".

If you have ever served with people in uniform, army navy, marines, even police, the old guys do know about complaining. To me it is a very evocative term and so exactly describes the cabbie.

Tonight I should finish the first book. Sillery interests me. The impression is that we will see him again. I cannot tell if he is a large frog in a small pond or a spider with the influence he is reputed to have. Mostly I do not think we are to like him..

In case anyone missed it from the various other sites, the name of this book was derived from a traffic accident where AP was a passenger. The driver maneuvering to avoid the accident was to have said> This will come down to a question of upbringing.

Mostly I am enjoying this book. I am getting a tad tired of how people can express such complex and extended content with an arch spoken indirect, or a glance. Jenkins seems ot be able to convert the slightest signal into a paragraph of analysis. I do not think so.

[Nigeyb]

Glad to learn you are mainly enjoying it


You're certainly generating a lot of content

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Nigeyb wrote: "Glad to learn you are mainly enjoying it


You're certainly generating a lot of content"

Thanks, but am I a "perfect synecdoche"

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Granting we are supposed to be deferring to the AP Society on all things painted.
I think we have Stringham associated with a young Alexander, Temple with Trimalchio and/or The Pharisee
And in book 2 maybe Jenkins with Cyrus.

I can make a case for the first two, not so much Cyrus, at least not yet.

Has anyone mentioned that AP had studied art prior to becoming a writer? I hate to think this book is that limited to autobio, but writers are pretty much stuck with what they know.

[Roman Clodia]

Are those parallels suggested by the AP society? I'd have to say they don't speak to me at all and sound rather grandiose for a trio of schoolboys... Especially as Jenkins is more camera/mouthpiece than actual personality.

But, to be fair, Powell is a bit of a mystery to me and I don't 'get' him.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

I do not intend to defer to AP Society on all things. Part of why I would have a buddy read, to gather other opinions.
I can make a case that Stringham is on his way to build an empire of something. The business world?
Temple , so far is a party boy. I am less happy with Cyrus and Jenkins, but he keep using that painting for a touch stone/memory device

Jenkins sorry for the pun, is something of our Ear into this story. That is more than a tad forced, so please do with it as you will.

I had been resisting the notion of Powell as England's answer to Proust, but I can see some of the elements. Proust was actually going somewhere and ultimately made some major 'universal' points. Way to soon to see if AP is doing anything that deep.

I see some writers making the case that The Central Character (all caps) is actually Widmerpool , he does keep popping up. Then again almost everyone seems to be tested against the ne'er do well Uncle Giles

[Nigeyb]

Will be interested in your perceptions as the story progresses

[Roman Clodia]

'Officially' we're on book 4 but all the threads remain open so do revive them. (I silently quit after the second book as AP is just not for me).

The comparison with Proust seems a general one but I don't really see it other than in the most superficial sense of number of pages. One of the differences for me is the seeming lack of emotion in AP: things happen with no real reason, motive or consequence and I felt that characters get moved around like chess pieces. This is quite different from 'Marcel' the narrator who has an endless fascination with the minutiae of personality, primarily his own!

But Nigeyb will have a legitimately different view from me on all this, and probably Susan too.

[Nigeyb]

I've read the whole series and this is a reread.


I regard it all as superior soap opera. The last thing I want to do is to give any spoilers.


There's a separate thread for A Buyer's Market here.....

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Nigeyb]

Like a lot of the classical allusions, I am unable to comment about Proust having only given his work a cursory read. Not to my taste I’m afraid.

I will repeat that these books get progressively better, and what AP achieves is a broad sweep of the 20th Century from an English perspective. These novels are like catnip as far as I’m concerned. The joy second time round is the anticipation of knowing what is to come.

AP/Nick is indeed somewhat detached. It’s a technique that works for me but I realise some might find that frustrating

[Roman Clodia]

Yes, it's absolutely about personal taste. You and I share a lot, Nigey, but also diverge on some books and authors, as is completely normal. Please don't feel you have to defend your love of this series - I enjoy hearing what pleasure you get from it.

I didn't dislike the two I read, but after 500 pages was still at that bland and neutral 3-star feeling so have decided to concentrate on other books that I'll enjoy more. Hearing about the rest vicariously via you and Susan will do me 😉

[Nigeyb]

I guessed you’d probably waved the white flag


And yes, we can’t all like everything. It’s what makes life, and this group, so interesting 🙌🏻

[Roman Clodia]

And we'll always have... Mr Eccles 😖 😏

[Nigeyb]

We will


*shudders*