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Motifs & Modern Myths > You've Got to be Fucking Kidding Me

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message 2: by Sophia (new)

Sophia (pheephyphophum) | 176 comments Mod
lol, and that's a very good correlation. Even in preparing food, that's all taken away. In doing the raw thing, I learned so much about plants and animals unintentionally. Like how domestication of animals is like a forced evolution. And how most plants that we eat couldn't even survive in the wild because they're so hybridized.

I can't wait to settle down, I would love to raise horses and farm animals just to have a few cows, chickens and pigs that I know would never get eaten, lol.

I am definitely going to check out that book, can you add it to the groups list of books if you haven't already? Really got my wheels turning!


message 3: by Father (new)

Father | 43 comments I just want to step away from this one...but alas, it's just too easy a target. Whether you are Christian or not, how can you not at least think about the validity of evolution. We evolve every day, and yes I do see validity in forced evolution. For example, and please don't think me a dirty old man, the hormones that are injected into animals and served en mass at every fast food restaurant are effecting the growth of kids today. I see girls walking around that look 4 or 5 years older than they are, 14. I don't remember girls looking like that when I was their age. What's happened?

And as for, "it's not in the Bible", who cares. I once considered myself a Christian, was even a missionary, but even then I could prove anything with the Bible. In my high school biology class I was given the chance, by my very Mormon biology teacher, to pass class and not show up for the rest of the year if I could prove Darwin wrong. He was an evolutionist even though the church believes in creationism like other Christian based religions. I had been ingrained from childhood that Darwin was evil and that man did not evolve from monkeys so I took the challenge. Needless to say, I attended class for the rest of the year. To this day I am thankfull he did this. A) I learned more than any other student in class because I studied Origin of Species, The Decent of Man, and other writings of Charles Darwin they would not accept. I could not prove them wrong. B) Because I could not prove them wrong made me think about why I believed the way I did. What other lies or bullshit had I listened to and believed to be true just because God or some other church leader said so. For that matter, why can't Christians think about the possibility that seven days in their god's world could possibly be a bit different than what we consider a day. It should make more sense to Christians and other creationists (and yes I'm playing devil's advocate) that God used evolution to make and change our world. The Catholics denounced Darwin for his writings, but even they were proving him right by preying on the poor and needy and attacking individuals with new ideas they didn't like. They had the upper hand, power, and money. Sounds like survival of the fittest to me.


message 4: by Rob (new)

Rob (merovigan) Whether you are Christian or not, how can you not at least think about the validity of evolution

Christians think a guy died and was reborn three days later, and because of that they get to live forever.

It's only decency and kindness which prevents most of us from saying what that is - retarded.


message 5: by Tim (last edited Mar 30, 2008 05:37AM) (new)

Tim | 21 comments heh. Rob you are being unfair ;)
Faith in God and therefore actions by a God, which clearly means that God would be able to do anything, is not retarded. It is a choice. Just like choosing to have faith that there is other intelligent life in the universe other than on earth.

As Father rightly says (i really appreciate yer tale too thanks), many Christians simply have it wrong. It is entirely possible to believe in evolution and also in God creating the world. There is nothing wrong with that. Just like there is nothing wrong with not believing it. The point is none of us know.

What disturbed me, and what is truly wrong, about the film was the indoctrination of the kids by the teachers. Utterly reprehensible.




message 6: by Sophia (last edited Mar 30, 2008 02:43PM) (new)

Sophia (pheephyphophum) | 176 comments Mod
Tim: It is entirely possible to believe in evolution and also in God creating the world. There is nothing wrong with that. Just like there is nothing wrong with not believing it. The point is none of us know.

To add to that, yes it is possible, but the difference is...there is evidence of evolution, but absolutely no evidence for god (in the christian sense) creating the world. I believe something created everything that exists because energy is non-originating and indestructible, but it had to have a beginning because we operate in a world based on Time. That could be proof, but maybe proof that "god" somehow created the system that created the omniverse that created the pieces that collided together to cause the big bang, lol. That's it.

But the way christians say it...it doesn't even make sense...I mean first of all, who was there to witness it? Second of all, if god whispered it in someone's ear today that he created the world and made a woman out of ribs....he would be in the loony bin.

It is retarded Rob. And it's not even apples and oranges because those are both fruits...evolution and creationism are like apples and rocks.

But check this out:
http://i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?...

This really hits the nail on the head....if you can take the validity of the Bible away, maybe it will show people that if they have faith in it, go all the way or shut up and wake up that your faith is really just another word for gullibility.

I was dead serious about making some sort of informational brochure or leaflet to pass out at churches. What do you guys think? Because kids should certainly be allowed to read fairytales, but not be forced to live their lives based on one.


message 7: by Tim (last edited Mar 30, 2008 02:43PM) (new)

Tim | 21 comments :) Sophia, do you know man has been on the moon, or do you believe that man has been on the moon?


message 8: by Rob (last edited Mar 31, 2008 07:06AM) (new)

Rob (merovigan) Faith in God and therefore actions by a God, which clearly means that God would be able to do anything, is not retarded

But it IS retarded, for its specificity and the chosen communication path. If God can do anything then having faith that he chose to do it THIS way is (and, by definition, no other more reasonable or provable way) absolutely retarded.

I believe that anything is possible, but if it's possible then it has proof.

Choosing to believe that life exists on other planets is not the same thing. The odds (statistics) practically require that there is life on other planets. I take it as a given. The question is; is self-aware life on other plaents? That I'm not so sure of because being self-aware is, technically speaking, a disadvantage to a species.

But I digress; let me restate what I said was retarded; Christians think a guy died and was reborn three days later, and because of that they get to live forever. Absolutely, positively, without question...RETARDED thinking!


message 9: by Rob (new)

Rob (merovigan) I was dead serious about making some sort of informational brochure or leaflet to pass out at churches. What do you guys think? Because kids should certainly be allowed to read fairytales, but not be forced to live their lives based on one.

I'd support that; hell I'd pass them out. What would be the topic points? Maybe we can start to flesh one out to actually hand out and start "saving" people from Christianity.


message 10: by Father (last edited Mar 31, 2008 10:35AM) (new)

Father | 43 comments Christians think a guy died and was reborn three days later, and because of that they get to live forever. Absolutely, positively, without question...RETARDED thinking!

Yes, this belief/faith is definitely OFF. But there are other religions that believe in some pretty "out there" stuff as well. We can't prove the existence of any god. Greek and Roman mythology is full of different god's. We call it mythology because our current beliefs/faiths, be it Jesus, Buddha, Alllah, no one, etc. try to make people believe and have faith in what they want. Whether you believe in a who/whatever/no one makes no difference because in a sense religion is based in mythology. The Bible is supposedly written by god, but in fact it was written and rewritten by man. How do we know if any of it is true? We don't. I think my former landlord, a born-again christian...eh, put it to me best when I was leaving the church: "Religion will take you straight to hell". Yes, another possible myth, hell, but I took it in the sense that, hell, was believing in something that just doesn't make sense and forces beliefs that go against our self, thus making us unhappy followers and not thinkers or leaders.

I'm with you on educating or "saving" people from christianity. I did it once, probably in the wrong way (almost got arrested), but the people I talked to didn't want to hear it. They are too programmed not to believe anything else. If we could come up with something that is coherent and believable, I'll be there handing them out too. I do feel, however, that just bashing any religion does no good to any arguement we may have against them. It only puts them on the defensive and their minds turn off even more. Ever hit your head against a brick wall? I did, as a young and gullible misssionary, and it shook the bullshit out everytime I asked a reasonable question about why I was supposed to believe in something unproven.


message 11: by Rob (new)

Rob (merovigan) I do feel, however, that just bashing any religion does no good to any arguement we may have against them.

I concur; I talk a lot of trash about religion on the internet but I am MUCH more respectful in real life - or I at least don't SAY what's on my mind.

There are atheist "tracts" you can buy by the lot of 50 or 100 for something like $.14 each. I'd go in for 100 on something like that. Or if we could describe a few topics I'd be willing to take a shot at writing up something non-inflammatory (and then letting the group hack at it too or whatever.)

I'd missionary against Christianity any day!


message 12: by Tim (last edited Mar 31, 2008 11:38AM) (new)

Tim | 21 comments Saying someone's faith is "retarded" is not only wrong, it is arrogant, disrespectful and counter productive to what ye claim ye want - to be able to convince someone that you may think it is "retarded".

Ye can not prove that their faith in God et all is any less relevant to them than your atheism is to you. You do not KNOW what is best. You may think you believe you know what is best for YOU. Thats great, as it should be. Don't make the same mistake of other religions by thinking that what is best for you is best for someone else.

You can't "educate or save people from Christianity"... save them TO what...?

You do you have better to offer them?

impo anyone should be able to believe what they want to believe as long as it harms no other.

What pisses me off are evangelists. Christian or Atheist ;)

The only way someone with faith (which is belief in something without knowing for sure, without proof) will cease having that faith is to become disillusioned from it. This normally happens from events in their life or from them asking questions about some beliefs that may go towards comprising that faith. Most often those questions are unanswerable in a reasonable manner. Once enough of those questions go unanswered it may be that they see that their faith was covering over the some dodgy beliefs.

I suggest that if ye truly wish to engage with people with faith in God and Christians - learn what the Bible says, then respectfully ask them those difficult questions which force them to actually think and answer for themselves what is often hidden or covered by faith. There are plenty of such questions. Most variations of Christianity entertain some ridiculous notions, traditions, beliefs etc which are contrary to what Jesus may have envisaged, or that are reprehensible.

I appreciate ye have admitted that ye trash talk on the net heh, at least ye realise ;p


message 13: by Rob (new)

Rob (merovigan) Saying someone's faith is "retarded" is not only wrong, it is arrogant, disrespectful and counter productive to what ye claim ye want - to be able to convince someone that you may think it is "retarded".

I don't intend to convince anyone over the internet so, it's not counter-productive since my "productive" here is to be honest. I think it's retarded, I can prove it, and I will stand behind it. It's my honest opinion.

No, I can't prove its relevance to someone but that's not the point; the idea of a person coming back to life after being dead three days having an impact on an afterlife is the subject. Not their faith in god; that is a completely separate thing. The rebirth/afterlife concept is what I describe as being retarded. You're tying this ignorant belief with a belief in god and that's a red herring. You can still believe in god without believing in the moronic Christ myth.

You do you have better to offer them?
Absolutely not! I am no one's savior and I have no more answers than "Well, that's clearly wrong so, keep looking." But, that's enough! The truth is the truth is the truth and if someone is willing to admit that what they believe is pure nonsense that makes them feel good then I'll tolerate them. But I want them to admit to that; to say that it makes no sense and they only believe it because it makes them feel good. Most Christians will not do this; they put their silly myths on par with reality and it offends my sensibility.

I want to save people "to" thinking more. Christianity is an insult to our collective intelligence and its time to stop giving it a free pass. It's time to stop pretending it has relevance. It's time to put it into an acid test and let the few nuggets of truth that it contains be all that is left of it.


message 14: by Father (new)

Father | 43 comments I want to save people "to" thinking more.
I also concur, how it is done I believe is the real question. No human is above another, or at least that is the way it should be. Showing proven facts may open some minds. Others will still not accept them because they are used to their safe haven of their faith and fear questioning thought that could destroy their belief system (which I think is what we're aiming for to a degree). For those people, like I have had to do with my very religious parents, is to agree to disagree. The world religions do not agree and many, if not most, wars have started because of religious differences. I appreciate those who stand by their beliefs, like Rob and Tim, it shows your conviction. We all have differences of opinions, so a solution that will satisfy everyone in the group is what we need.


message 15: by Sophia (last edited Mar 31, 2008 11:13PM) (new)

Sophia (pheephyphophum) | 176 comments Mod
Yeah, but stop making it a round-about argument, Tim. Again...if you agree, then why harp on the retarded thing? There is a much larger picture out there and since the commonality amongst us all is that we can see the forest and not the trees, I would much rather focus on that.

I concur, we shouldn't just run up in people's face and start telling them how they are wrong. Nothing would get accomplished. I guess what I'm looking for is a way to say to people who grew up like me...yes, it doesn't make sense and here's why.

My Dad made me cry today. He said to me "Sophie, I really hate that I used to question you and say you should be going to church when now I see why you didn't." I couldn't believe it! My Dad is almost 55 and his wife is 54 and over the last year, they both went from Christian to the core to just being label-less, happy, and educated. That's what I want to see happen to the people who already have their doubts and who don't fear the unknown. Why? Because there is nothing to fear, and on the flip side, there's nothing to revere.

Father, you're right...once you introduce god into the equation, you immediately create fear of all these things that just don't exist.

So here's what I propose should be in the information that we give out:

1) Contradictory bible verses (If you say being Gay is a sin then you must also go out and kill all disobedient children...they're both rules from the same chapter)

2) Where the bible came from (Council of Nicea/Nicene and Constantine's influence)

3) How bible story's are nothing new (relate to Egyptian myths)

4) How Jesus, and most bible stories, are an astrological reference to how Egyptians monitored the stars and the seasons.

5) Information on the Law of Attraction and maybe if not totally abandoning God, finding a more explicable explanation for it.

6) Above all, I'd like to put as many references in as possible so people who are interested can find out more information for themselves.

I guess I just feel that there are so many people who see the inconsistencies and incongruencies with the way we were taught to believe that now's really a perfect time to challenge people. Most know something's wrong but just can't pinpoint it.

What do you guys think? Too much?


message 16: by Father (last edited Apr 01, 2008 08:16AM) (new)

Father | 43 comments No, not too much.

1)There are a lot of contradictory verses in the bible as well as misinterpreted verses. One thing I do know is that a lot of christians can quote book, chapter and verse when challenged. As much as it might pain me to pick up my old bible, we need to know what we are talking about. But, I'll take one for the team in order to find valuable inconsistancies.
2)Good point, we need to show where the bible came from. Man.
3)The bible's stories are mostly myth, except I think they call them parables. It's just semantics.
4)Even European monarchs used astrologers and such in conjunction with christian beliefs to decide what to do.
5)The rabbit hole goes deeper than just the Law of Attraction and I don't think people have to abandon God to investigate it or accept it. There are already many books and movies that are raising these questions and they are selling.
6)The better, rational information we give the better. Who was it that said, "The truth shall set you free"? ;-)

I started seeing the inconsistenies in my early 20's and it took a while to get rid of the guilt of abandoning what I had been taught since childhood, but, once I started thinking for myself and not letting others do my thinking the more my mind opened up to new ideas. I believe once one mind is opened, others are bound to follow. At least, that is my hope.


message 17: by Sophia (new)

Sophia (pheephyphophum) | 176 comments Mod
Thanks Daddio!

1) I have some issues with his delivery, but these are some excellent verses we can use:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwB...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4z...

2) That POCM thing is cool and I have a few books I can reference (most are on the groups book list)

3) I have some DVDs from Dr. Ashra Kwesi that have some awesome info on this I can pull from.

4) Maybe the ZeitgestMovie.com stuff.

5) You're right. Do you think that is a good thing? :-) Again, I don't wanna pull the rug from under people, and maybe if the other info strips too much, learning about LOA and stuff can be the pillows they land on.

6) Absolutely.

I think you're right, but there's only one way to find out :-)


message 18: by Father (new)

Father | 43 comments I think we're moving in the right direction. I haven't had time in the last couple of days to do much research but it looks like you've already been doing some. I'm interested in the Dr. Kwesi DVD's. Are they hard to find? I guess I was trying to think of other places people could land but you do have a point, the LOA is a very soft place to land. I may have some time today to look into some other ideas but my phone is starting to ring off the hook with clients and other realtors (which makes me HAPPY! It's picking up, finally, yeah baby.) Thanks for the references and insight.


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