Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion
FORBIDDEN HISTORY OF THE BIBLE
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Biblical conspiracy theory re Adam & Eve
When we finally wake up to the fact that we've been 'played' since the very beginning, enlightenment will dawn. Hence the cliché, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how you played the game."
Lance Morcan wrote: "Here's an excerpt from the Afterword to our book The Orphan Conspiracies by American author and Professor of History at the University of Idaho, Dr. Richard (Rick) Spence [author:Richard B. Spence|..."Let me share my views: God created man in his own likeness to have fellowship with him. He gave us free will. Without that, love and adoration would be meaningless. We are told that we should come to the Father/God as children with humility and whatever we ask, he will grant us, as would any loving father. There is order in nature, therefore if God created man, the 'created' is always subject to the 'creator'. When Adam and Eve exercised their free will and 'ate the forbidden fruit' they exhibited arrogance and self pride by wanting to be like God the father, or so they were told by the devil himself. This violated the 'compact' with the father and with this violation, the promised blessings were withdrawn. Now, back to 'eating the fruit'. Scholars smarter than I have theorised that the 'bite from the apple' was a figurative representation of another act, an act of adultery, physical sex that Eve had with Satan who was a most glorious fallen angel. It was from this sexual union that the devil's seed was given to Eve and the fruit was 'Cain' who later murdered his brother out of jealousy. And it was from this bloodline, that the cursed lineage of humanity has evolved.
Further, I would not classify self delusion as a 'gift'. We have everything we need from God, even now, if we know how to tap into it and receive his blessings. That doesn't mean we don't go through tremendous suffering in this life, we do. But that's another story. If one is 'deluded' he or she does not see the truth. What's the first step to recovery in AA? see reality, admit it and deal with it!
We cannot be, or get closer to God if we are deluded with false doctrines and distractions! This would be the ultimate curse, to be lost to perdition having lived in a delusional state our entire lives. He has 'already given us' eternal life, so that would not be a motivation for wanting to 'be like him' as is suggested.
So with that, I would challenge a couple of the presumptions made in the original post. Stick that in the pot and stir it!
Mark wrote: "Lance Morcan wrote: "Here's an excerpt from the Afterword to our book The Orphan Conspiracies by American author and Professor of History at the University of Idaho, Dr. Richard (Rick) Spence [auth..."Thanks Mark. No doubt the writer, Dr. Spence, will respond if he sees fit. Meanwhile, I'm sure you'll find our Biblical discussion threads of interest.
I tend to believe that Rick Spence's summary of Adam & Eve is the correct one - that there would be no form of knowledge that God would not want Man to know.Knowledge is always empowering.
Have a look at our Father Peter Kennedy who was banned from the Catholic Church by the Vatican for not sustaining the status quo. Tedxcanberra.org. Watch his video. This is a religious leader I could respect. His motto is "It is more important what we do than what we believe".
James wrote: "I tend to believe that Rick Spence's summary of Adam & Eve is the correct one - that there would be no form of knowledge that God would not want Man to know.Knowledge is always empowering."
But perhaps knowledge of the manifest world from a human perspective only detracts us from any 'Godly' knowledge? Therefore it may disempower us spiritually.
(Just to play Devil's advocate).
Harry wrote: "But perhaps knowledge of the manifest world from a human perspective only detracts us from any 'Godly' knowledge? Therefore it may disempower us spiritually.(Just to play Devil's advocate).
..."
Thank you for finally admitting what all Undergrounders already knew: You are the Devil (and you're just advocating yourself).
But seriously, I have to go with Krishna's reply to you on this one: Godly knowledge would also be knowledge. And all knowledge is empowering. Remaining in a fog of amnesia or ignorance can never be a better state than knowing, I say.
I think Rick Spence's essay hit it on the head: The God mentioned in the Adam & Eve story may in fact be the Devil (or something akin to the concept of the Devil). And the snake in the story may actually be God or a Godly manifestation...
The plot thickens in this good ol' Bible book!
Krishna wrote: "I think Adam and Eve r real Gods. they started the civilization. and parents r gods only!"But how can Adam & Eve have started civilization if they are only 10,000 years old?
Or are you going to go out on a limb and say those Christian Fundamentalists don't know what they're talking about? ;)
James wrote: "Harry wrote: "But perhaps knowledge of the manifest world from a human perspective only detracts us from any 'Godly' knowledge? Therefore it may disempower us spiritually.(Just to play Devil's ad..."
That was Devil's Advocate I was playing, not Devil Incarnate!
And I actually agree with you James, but I think the 'forbidden knowledge' of the Eden tree could still be seen from my illustration. But I agree that any knowledge is GOOD!
I also happen to agree that 'god' is 'the devil', but that's opening up a can of worms....
Krishna wrote: "James, Adam and Eve r referred to the first people who started the civilization. isn't it? and civilization started more or less 10000 years ago only."Yes, that's all correct...I was only trying throw in a little humor off the back of all those who have posted recently saying the Earth/Universe is only 10,000 years old and dinos were still around at the time of Jesus.
Harry wrote: " also happen to agree that 'god' is 'the devil', but that's opening up a can of worms......."I also believe God and the Devil are different guises of the same thing. Opposites, but still at the highest level one and the same.
And the ship has already sailed in this group regarding opening up cans of worms, so just speak your mind. Almost every taboo and forbidden subject has already been broached and everyone who can be offended already has been.
James wrote: "Harry wrote: " also happen to agree that 'god' is 'the devil', but that's opening up a can of worms......."I also believe God and the Devil are different guises of the same thing. Opposites, but ..."
Well, even from the Christian point of view you have God creating Adam and Eve but the Devil creating all of their descendants, so that alone could be argued as meaning The Devil is our God. We are no longer what God created.
I think William Blake's tales of the ethereal world of God being twisted into the clashing of horrid bones as the new physical world was made, in some of his Illuminated Books, sums it all up pretty well.
I went to read about the big bang theory in another discussion and found it was just another discussion on God and how the universe is only 6000 years old. If the universe is only 6000 years old how were the Mesopotamians (ancient civilisation from around Babylonia and Assyria which is now modern Iraq) around in 8000BC. It is thought they may have been there earlier but that is the earliest they have been able to date. Ancient Greeks- 7250 BC. Ancient Egyptians- 3500BC (which means many pyramids, structures, etc were built not long after the universe was created).
Hi Kelly- A Correction: Only 1 (or maybe 2) members were saying the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Everybody else disagreed - even mainstream Christianity disagrees with that premise. Those who believe the Earth is only that old are Christian Fundamentalists who take the whole bible literally including dates, ages etc. Also, most of those comments in the Big Bang Theory were tongue n cheek stuff, not meant to be taken seriously. But I understand to the casual reader of such threads they could easily be taken out of context.
We have had fantastic authors throughout the history of mankind. The authors of the Biblical stories, although some obviously mentally unstable, seem to have also been some what of philosophers, men in employment of those in power, and men with god complex. They knew exactly how to play their readers (and listeners). In the garden of Eden, they played the oldest trick in the book: Making Eve think that it was her idea to eat the fruit and therefore guiltily accept the consequences thereof. How could we not see ourselves as sinners of the flesh when we cannot keep a simple commandment? Were these stories written as a part of conspiracy? Perhaps to enslave then carnal mind...making ppl believe that it is because of their own weakness that they are sinners in this life. What an excellent way to then, after this cunning art, show these ppl that there is a light at the end of the tunnel after all. You promise them all the glory in the afterlife, and they will follow you to the ends of the earth. Driven by guilt and fear, a person will do just about anything...believe just about anything.
James Morcan wrote: "I also believe God and the Devil are different guises of the same thing. Opposites, but still at the highest level one and the same.."Well, if we believe that god created everything, and thus he created the devil/Lucifer/Satan, that would mean that god had evil in him, and following that train, god is not pure good, up against pure evil as the religious right would have us believe.
Just sayin'.
Erma wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "I also believe God and the Devil are different guises of the same thing. Opposites, but still at the highest level one and the same.."Well, if we believe that god created eve..."
I agree with James' comment on this one. "Duality" is the term used for this sort of belief system and it makes sense as everything has an opposite. Black/white, good/evil, up/down, light/dark, God/Devil etc etc. Two sides of the same thing.
Laureen wrote: ""Duality" is the term used for this sort of belief system and it makes sense as everything has an opposite. Black/white, good/evil, up/down, light/dark, God/Devil etc etc. Two sides of the same thing."True, but isn't there gradients to most everything? Degrees of each?
Not arguing, but clarifying here.
Erma wrote: "Laureen wrote: ""Duality" is the term used for this sort of belief system and it makes sense as everything has an opposite. Black/white, good/evil, up/down, light/dark, God/Devil etc etc. Two sides..."Yes, of course. I think that is where freedom of choice comes in. We can choose a path of light or lean towards the dark. Whatever, we have the potential for both. Having said that, I believe all those that lean towards darkness have light within them also. I am not being religious here. My interpretation is more fact or science based although others will disagree.
So I'm hearing there is a reference in the Old Testament about Adam being divorced (first wife named Lillith I seem to recall).So if not the first woman, what was Eve then?
Lilith is a later mythology but finds its roots linked back to Babylon and even here Lilith can be attributed as far back as Sumer. The Torah was assembled while the Jews were in exile in Babylon. A conflation of stories from essentially 4 voices (J,P,E, and D) were shaped to form the first five books of the Bible. The Lilith myth in Judaism probably derives from this exile period but doesn't find real traction until roughly 200 to 300 years after Jesus. I'm brushing with broad strokes here and I am certain you can find other stances and theories on this topic.More interesting is how the Jewish exiles incorporated Babylonian myths into their own writing - Noah for example. Also, I found the theory on the Snake as a representation that the Babylonians were at fault for all the worlds suffering. You see, in ancient Babylonian culture, the snake was a popular figure. Some believe the earliest writers of the Bible used the snake as a metaphor to explain the suffering that the Jews faced at the time.
Stephan wrote: "James wrote: "Lilith was Adam’s first woman. Lilith means (female) ‘Night’ in Hebrew (otherwise the root of her name is simply Night) after a devastating relationship with Lilith, Adam sought Eve, not as a wife, alas, but to be his psychiatric nurse. ...""psychiatric nurse" in what way?
Psychiatry wasn't even invented then.
Or you mean it as a psychiatric equivalent?
Here is the Gnostic take on Adam and Eve, direct from Nag Hamadi..... Ialdabaoth is the God of the old testament...The biblical descriptions of the Garden of Eden and the great flood are also reinterpreted through the lens of Gnostic belief. Here, the ‘tree of knowledge’ is really the ‘tree of gnosis and it is from this plant that the true hidden knowledge of the invisible spirit can be gained. In the guise of an eagle ‘afterthought’ (a creation of the divine spirit) encourages Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Gnosis. This act enlightens their thinking. “Insight appeared to them as light and awakened their minds”. In a fit of jealous rage, Ialdabaoth expels Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. As a sign of his dominance, Ialdabaoth also rapes Eve and from this act Cain and Abel are born as imperfect creations. The first purely human natural creation is the third child of Eve; Seth who is Adam’s first born son. Some Gnostic sects became known also as the ‘followers (sons) of Seth’. Later, the vengeful Ialdabaoth decides to destroy all humanity for perceived disobedience to his supreme rule by inflicting a flood on the earth. However, the Barbelo warns Noah, his family and others known as the “immovable race”. Subsequently these people are ‘saved’ from the wrath of Ialdabaoth.
Tony wrote: "Here is the Gnostic take on Adam and Eve, direct from Nag Hamadi..... Ialdabaoth is the God of the old testament...The biblical descriptions of the Garden of Eden and the great flood are also rei..."
I tend to hold the Gnostics above all the other faiths of the Middle East.
Do you have intentions to write more books after the obelisk and the cross, Tony?
Seems like you have more (Biblical) underground knowledge to share in further books, although I've still yet to read The Obelisk and the Cross - so maybe all the answers are in that book!
Hi James, my new book is nearly finished. the Obelisk and the Cross is an introduction to aspects of Western society that have been suppressed. The new book looks at alternatives that will maybe label me a heretic.
Tony wrote: "Hi James, my new book is nearly finished. the Obelisk and the Cross is an introduction to aspects of Western society that have been suppressed. The new book looks at alternatives that will maybe label me a heretic...."Well I think you should embrace that label!
Pleased to hear you'll be coming out with a new book soon and revealing even more of your impressive research.
Best of luck with it all,
James
You have to ask "what God?" We are talking about in re Adam and Eve....Catholics and other Christians have always been told that the God in question is Yaweh/Jehova which eventually became the God of Christianity aka the trinity. What's fascinating is many of the gnostic thinkers and scholars, especially those belonging to the Sethian tradition believe that the God of the garden of eden is Yaldabaoth aka Samael aka the demiurge aka the blind god. The belief is that this false god was the result of Sophia(female wisdom aspect of the unknowable true God)giving birth to an "idiot god"(sounds Lovecraftian no?) who lorded over humanity and did not want them to know(gnosticism) the truth about who they were i.e. Marriage of the soul and spirit.Lucifer, literally means bearer of light...therefore, some of the Gnostics believed that the snake, who later became associated in the Christian faith with Lucifer, was actually the good guy who was literally showing humanity the light. To all Gnostics, this concept is metaphorical, but is supposed to teach a truth about humanity in that we are blinded by the demiurge to the truth and through Gnosticism or knowledge we will be free.
The concepts of Gnosticism are very similar to that of Vedic religions and Buddhism....but that is an entirely different discussion.
Great book that got me interested in this topic is the Secret History of the World by Mark Booth. If y'all are interested in biblical shortcomings, anomalies and contradictions, read The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels.
Tony, sorry I didn't see your comment above. Sorry for reiterating much of what you said beautifully already 😊
No problem Nick. To take things a bit further, there was no concept of 'the devil' in the old testament. The Hebrew word for Satan means adversary. The whole idea of an evil force is one that came from eastern traditions. From a Christian perspective, it was first expressed in the dead sea scrolls. The writers of the New Testament then took the 'evil' ball and ran with it....
Tony, right on! I'm actually listening to audiobook of The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels. I have also marked your book Obelisk and The Cross on my "to read" list as well. I'm always looking for more knowledge on these topics.
Thanks Nick, excellent summary in your long post and enjoyed the read.
My pleasure. Thank y'all for the discussion group and thread-really enjoy reading and discussing this topic!
Consciousness of humankind was quite primitive then; hard to see if there's much for us to learn from an era where slavery and capital punishment by stoning were accepted. The modern era is more relevent; when humankind began addressing inequity in this life rather than dreaming of perfection in an imagined life to come.
The Gnostic take on Adam and Eve (according to one author I came across): http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/gnostic-... Adam and Eve
Just as Adam and Eve are regarded as central characters in the Christian creation myth, they are equally as important in that of the Gnostics. As mentioned in previous articles, the creation of the world according to Gnostic tradition is an account of the world created not by the True God, but by a false god. As Adam and Eve were created and placed in the Garden of Eden in Genesis, the same has been done in Gnostic scripture.
However, the demiurge is responsible for the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The demiurge has created the fleshly bodies to entrap the spirits of Adam and Eve. Adam is placed under a spell of ignorance and put to sleep by the false god. Eve is placed next to him, and she commands Adam to awaken. When Adam sees Eve, he believes that she is his creator.
The demiurge wanted to keep Adam and Eve ignorant; forever worshipping him. The Gnostics believe that the demiurge was posing as the false god, thus keeping Adam and Eve under his spell of ignorance. As long as Adam and Eve believed that he was the only god, they would worship him forever.
The serpent is regarded as an evil figure in traditional Christian stories, but to the Gnostics, the serpent is the hero! The Gnostic text teaches that as the demiurge tells Adam and Eve that they may help themselves to anything the Garden, they are to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. As Adam and Eve listen to the serpent, their eyes are opened, and the spell of ignorance is broken forever. Because they chose to listen to the serpent, Adam and Eve no longer worship the demiurge, but recognize that there is the True God, and he was not the creator of the evil, imperfect, material world.
Adam and Eve gave birth to two children, Seth and Norea. The descendents of Seth regard themselves as Sethians, those that have been blessed with the gnosis.
http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/gnostic-...
This is a good introductory article to the Gnostic take on Adam and Eve:https://margmowczko.com/adam-and-eve-...
James wrote: "Adam Was Not the First Human, for the Bible Tells Us So https://owlcation.com/humanities/What..."It is funny how people ignore that fact even when all you have to do is actually read Genesis! It also gives weight to the Gnostic version of Adam's creation that, to put in basic terms, he was created twice.
Agreed Harry. And also Lilith was Adam's first wife, before Eve, but that's conveniently ignored.Maybe it should be changed to: Adam and Eve - the (hundredth and) first humans...
James wrote: "Agreed Harry. And also Lilith was Adam's first wife, before Eve, but that's conveniently ignored."Where's the Lilith thing from?
Lilith (/ˈlɪlɪθ/; Hebrew: לִילִית Lîlîṯ) is a figure in Jewish mythology, developed earliest in the Babylonian Talmud (3rd to 5th centuries).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
In Jewish folklore, Alphabet of Sirach (c. 700–1000 CE) onwards, Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time (Rosh Hashanah) and from the same clay as Adam—compare Genesis 1:27. (This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs: Genesis 2:22.)
Cheers.And Eve was called Zoe in Gnostic texts too, just to confuse matters even more. :)
Next we'll learn that Zoe, I mean Eve, was an ancient version of Elizabeth Taylor in that Adam was about her 10th husband!!
Oddly enough I picked up a book by Stephen Greenblatt called The Rise and Fall of Adam and Eve just the other day on a layover in Houston. This book is pretty interesting as it discusses the scientific reasons why Adam and Eve could not have existed as the Bible describes....he also goes into detail about how human beings identify strongly with stories and story tellers in order to better understand themselves and the world around them. Dan Brown recently discussed that theme in great detail his latest book Origin as well.I always go back to this: if Adam and Eve were the only two humans created, how did Cain go off to Nod(East of Eden) and marry? Why did Cain need a mark to keep him safe from everyone else when his parents were the only humans? For that matter, who did Seth and his kids, as well as Cain’s kids, marry?
B. wrote: "I always go back to this: if Adam and Eve were the only two humans created, how did Cain go off to Nod(East of Eden) and marry? Why did Cain need a mark to keep him safe from everyone else when his parents were the only humans? For that matter, who did Seth and his kids, as well as Cain’s kids, marry? Yup.
Would love to get the opinion of people who think the Bible is the word of God on that subject! Although, as mentioned, Genesis does say humans were created prior to Adam.
Well don't forget the Nephilim referenced in Genesis who were "the sons of God" or the "Sons of OLDER Gods" depending on what translations.
Personally, I read Genesis and it reads like pure genetic engineering...Maybe that scene in Prometheus by Ridley Scott is closer to what Genesis is about? I dunno, just guesswork here obviously.
James wrote: "Personally, I read Genesis and it reads like pure genetic engineering...Maybe that scene in Prometheus by Ridley Scott is closer to what Genesis is about? I dunno, just guesswork here obviously."Well, it is called GENEsis. I'm thinking along those lines myself lately.
Underground Knowledge — A discussion group
Books mentioned in this topic
Deceptions And Myths Of The Bible (other topics)The Orphan Conspiracies: 29 Conspiracy Theories from The Orphan Trilogy (other topics)
Adam and Eve, History or Myth? (other topics)
Someone, I honestly can’t recall who, once told me an apocryphal anecdote which is a kind of epilogue to the biblical tale of the Garden of Eden and the Fall of Man. According to this, upon seeing Adam and Eve driven from paradise, the agent of their ruin, the Serpent, aka the Devil, was moved to pity. Or so he claimed. He asked God if he might bestow upon these pitiful creatures a gift which would make their mortal suffering and that of their descendants a little easier to bear. The Lord consented, and so the Serpent granted humankind the “blessing” of self-delusion: the inability to see themselves, the world or their state as they really were. The trick, of course, is that neither would they be able to see God or the Devil for what they really were either.
The Eden saga is also relevant because, if taken literally, it can be interpreted as the Ur-Conspiracy against the human race. Basically, Adam and Eve got the boot because they dared to acquire forbidden knowledge and, if not stopped, might have achieved the ultimate prize of eternal life. It was that which prompted God—or Gods since the divine conversation is always in terms of “we”—to nip things in the bud lest the upstart creations become “like us.” It’s enough to make one wonder just whose side the Serpent was on. Or could it be that the Serpent was just God in disguise? Maybe we’ve been in the dark from the beginning.
Mythology, heresy or whatever, I’ve often thought the “Devil’s Gift” story explained the human condition pretty well. Whether the Serpent is to be blamed or thanked, the simple fact is that we do possess a tremendous capacity for deluding ourselves—and others.