Victorians! discussion
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The Princess and the Goblin
Archived Group Reads 2023
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Princess & Goblin: Week 1: Ch. 1 - 7
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Haven't been involved in this, (or any), group read for awhile. Life became hectic with other commitments. But . . going forward. What I loved about this group before -- reading novels I would not have read on my own. Completed chapters 1-7 --- I enjoyed tie inquisitive nature of the little princess, Irene ---after getting lost in the staircases and hallways -- being brave enough to basically wipe her face of tears -- dust herself off -- then get on with it. Even though she is a princess -- she wanted to kiss Curdie because a promise is a promise.
Mod
Great-Great-Grandmother Irene is an interesting and fairly mysterious character. Why the heck is she living in the “attic” all alone for what seems to be years????
Renee wrote: "Great-Great-Grandmother Irene is an interesting and fairly mysterious character. Why the heck is she living in the “attic” all alone for what seems to be years???...Stranger yet, why was Irene sent to another mountain and a nurse not employed at the palace? The chapters up till now do not mention if Irene has any regular contact with the king or queen.
‘Who’s that laughing at me?’ said the princess, trying to keep in her sobs, and running too fast for her grazed knees.‘Nobody, child,’ said the nurse, almost angrily.
But that instant there came a burst of coarse tittering from somewhere near, and a hoarse indistinct voice that seemed to say: ‘Lies! lies! lies!’
I was lying in bed at night reading this and I have to admit... I got a little spooked!
Laurene wrote: "I enjoyed the inquisitive nature of the little princess, Irene ---after getting lost in the staircases and hallways..."Me too, Laurene. It reminded me of Mary Lennox's explorations in The Secret Garden.
Mod
She must be some sort of benevolent and/ or protective character. Living secretly up in the attic suggests there is some rift between her and the Princess’s father? There is definitely a mystery here.
Notice how the story tells of a child toiling in a mine, at work that was hard at best, as if it's completely normal. Which, of course, in the Victorian era it oftentimes was. Curdie was forced to grow up fast, having a great deal of freedom and responsibility. Brave by nature or necessity?
Kerstin wrote: "She must be some sort of benevolent and/or protective character..."There seems to be a lot of spinning going on in these old tales. The narrator implies the spinning is significant at the end of chapter three:
About this spinning of hers I will tell you more another time.
In the first examples of stories featuring spinning that come to my mind, the spinners are not exactly benevolent (Sleeping Beauty and Rumplestiltskin). I'm curious to see where this is going.
Mod
Yes. Children in the mines used to be a quite common. They were small enough for tight spaces. Unfortunately, in some places in the world today we still have this practice going on.
Mod
There seems to be a lot of spinning going on in these old tales. The narrator implies the spinning is significan..."
Good catch! I read just past that.
The symbolism of spinning would be an interesting rabbit hole to follow :)
I felt a little uneasy about the fact that the author emphasised how the goblins had become hideously deformed and grotesque due to being forced underground. They were also described as strong and intelligent. They reminded me at first of the trolls of Norse mythology. Trolls are described in various ways, often as strong but ‘dim-witted’ but apart from shapes and shadows we have not really encountered them yet.I was intrigued by the long passage ways with numerous doors and the young princess quickly losing her way. Will she ever find again that staircase that leads to her great great grandmother? If nobody else knows she is there, the castle/farmstead must be made up of a maze of interconnecting floors and passage ways.
Trev wrote: "If nobody else knows she is there, the castle/farmstead must be made up of a maze of interconnecting floors and passage ways..."As all great fairy tale castles are!
Trev wrote: "I felt a little uneasy about the fact that the author emphasised how the goblins had become hideously deformed and grotesque due to being forced underground..."There was a legend current in the country that at one time they lived above ground, and were very like other people. But for some reason or other, concerning which there were different legendary theories, the king had laid what they thought too severe taxes upon them, or had required observances of them they did not like, or had begun to treat them with more severity, in some way or other, and impose stricter laws; and the consequence was that they had all disappeared from the face of the country...
They were now, not ordinarily ugly, but either absolutely hideous, or ludicrously grotesque both in face and form. There was no invention, they said, of the most lawless imagination expressed by pen or pencil, that could surpass the extravagance of their appearance.
Yes. An oppressed and marginalised group is perceived as more and more repulsive. Not an isolated phenomenon...
Mod
As Jane already pointed out, the goblins represent a marginalized group. A marginalized group always experiences some kind of injustice. Their appearance reflects this.
I also want to hark back to Great-great-grandma Irene. With her we encounter the color white - in Western tradition this is associated with innocence and purity. Grandma Irene's hair is white, but not in a dishevled, hag-type way, but falling beautifully and ordered over her back. This underscores her benevolence and because of her age, wisdom.
We'll see if my initial impressions will hold!
With her we encounter the color white - in Western tradition this is associated with innocence and purity..."An interesting piece of information regarding the colour white:
In ancient Rome, people running for public office wore white, the Latin word for which is candidus. These people thus became known as candidates, which is why we still use the word ‘candidate’ for someone running in an election to this day. The word is etymologically related to candid, which means to be frank and honest: again drawing attention to the purity-symbolism attached to the colour white.
I am struck by the comparison between the whistling and singing Curdie and the child with his father hard at work with their pickaxes and shovels and hammers ... The child digging away alone in a passage no bigger than gave him just room to work is such a striking image, which compels one to warm all the more towards this kind-hearted, little boy.
Jane wrote: "I am struck by the comparison between the whistling and singing Curdie and the child with his father hard at work with their pickaxes and shovels and hammers ... The child digging away alone in a..."
Is there something mysterious about Curdie?………. or is he just being polite and courteous when he refuses the princess’ promise of a kiss?
He would know that as a miner’s son he should not be kissed by a princess, yet he tells her he will come back later so she can fulfil her promise.
Could it be that there is more to Curdie than meets the eye, or does he believe he is the equal of any prince, regardless of his background and status?
Trev wrote: "Could it be that there is more to Curdie than meets the eye, or does he believe he is the equal of any prince, regardless of his background and status?..."I would hope he does believe he is equal to royalty. There have always been certain wise souls throughout all periods of time who seem to have an innate wisdom. Perhaps this might be why Curdie isn't afraid of the goblins, does a sense of injustice and compassion temper any nervousness? Does he recognise the goblins are more mischievous than evil?
But as they grew in cunning, they grew in mischief and their great delight was in every way they could think of to annoy the people who lived in the open-air storey above them. They had enough of affection left for each other to preserve them from being absolutely cruel for cruelty’s sake.
Mod
I’m not sure what to do with that. I just wonder if it has significance. Up as in Heaven. Down as in Hell.
Jane wrote: "‘Who’s that laughing at me?’ said the princess, trying to keep in her sobs, and running too fast for her grazed knees.‘Nobody, child,’ said the nurse, almost angrily.
But that instant there came a..."
I loved that passage -- it was spooky -- probably preparing us for what is to come!
Renee wrote: "Young Irene seems to have an innate sense of right and wrong. Plus, she doesn’t get spooked by much. I think she’s a character that kids would like. Curdie, too. He has shown bravery and kindness. ..."The hidden person in the attic and/or basement --- the person who might hold significant information.
Jane wrote: "Laurene wrote: "I enjoyed the inquisitive nature of the little princess, Irene ---after getting lost in the staircases and hallways..."Me too, Laurene. It reminded me of Mary Lennox's exploration..."
yes, definitely!!
Trev wrote: "I felt a little uneasy about the fact that the author emphasised how the goblins had become hideously deformed and grotesque due to being forced underground. They were also described as strong and ..."Wish there was a like button! I really want to know what is behind all those doors -- well -- maybe!
Renee wrote: "I’ve been thinking about location as a theme. Irene climbing up to find her great great grandmother. Curdie climbing down into the mines. The goblins forced underground..."Could be! Historically, those who shied away from the general population did so in caves. I think there are some more modern examples of underground living (perhaps research will bring up some older exceptions). There may be some symbolism at play (heavenly=good, subterranean=evil).
Laurene wrote: "The hidden person in the attic and/or basement --- the person who might hold significant information...."As this is Victorian literature, a 'madwoman in the attic' scenario remains a possibility!
Mod
Irene: it is Greek for 'peace'
Curdie: Here the etymology isn't as easy to follow. A cur is an inferior or mongrel dog, but the name also seems to be related to 'Curtis', which means polite, courteous, well-bred.
If anyone wished to dig further, have at it!
Kerstin wrote: "Irene: it is Greek for 'peace'..."Good catch! Irene is the Greek word for peace. My suspicions are now raised as to Irene's role in regard to the future of the goblins.
Concerning the origins of the name 'Curdie', I found a connection as a Scottish surname. There is 'The Curdie Motto', which was originally a war cry or slogan!
War and peace?
Laurene wrote: "I really want to know what is behind all those doors -- well -- maybe!..."I love the Gutenberg edition with the Jessie Willcox Smith illustrations.
Up and up she ran – such a long way it seemed to her!
Mod
It is raining and Irene is bored being stuck indoors. When the nurse leaves the room she discovers a side door and walks up the stairs onto another level. Soon she is lost among the corridors but then she hears activity behind a door and enters. She finds a beautiful lady there spinning who turns out to be her great-great-grandmother, also called Irene. Grandma Irene helps the Princess back to her nursery. The nurse, nicknamed Lootie, thinks Irene is making up the entire story. The next day Irene tries again to find her g-g-grandmother, but gets lost again and goes down a set of stairs into the kitchen.
On the third day the rain finally has let up and both Irene and Lootie are excited to venture outdoors again. They are supposed to be back by nightfall but they lost track of time and the sun sets. Soon there are scary goblins about and they get lost running back to the palace. A kind miner's boy, Curdie, helps them back and lucky for them they hadn't been missed at the palace yet.
That night in front of Curdie's window goblins make noise, and Curdie decides stay overnight in the mine the next day to find out more about the goblins.