Tournament of Books discussion
2023 TOB General
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2023 Shortlist
Gwendolyn wrote: "Forgive me if this has been asked before, but will the primary conversations about these matchups be here in Goodreads or over on Discord? I’ve been participating in both up to this point, but it w..."Gwendolyn - they said Disqus comments will actually be happening for the main tournament, at the bottom of judgements each day!
Gwendolyn wrote: "will the primary conversations about these matchups be here in Goodreads or over on Discord? ..."I'm expecting to be venting in Disqus...
Kip wrote: "I just cleaned up the bracket prediction spreadsheet a bit. ..."Hey Kip - will you please message me your email address (or whatever you are using to sign in to Google docs), so that when I lock the spreadsheet tonight I can leave you with access to it? I have some work obligations that might slow me down on doing daily timely updates, and I know everyone will want to see the daily results as early as possible.
OK -- I've finally filled out the bracket, so you should all go and look because it's the standard by which you should judge your own -- as long as none of your choices are mine, you are that much more likely to win. Also -- I feel awful because I'm finally reading the book I saved for last -- Seven Moons -- and I don't like it. At all. Unless it's going to change dramatically, it's coming across as the weirdest stew of Lincoln in the Bardo, A History of Seven Killings (which I couldn't even finish), and maybe The Master and Margarita (ditto), with some How to Get Rich in Rising Asia (which admittedly, I loved) sprinkled on top. Since so many of you loved it, I feel like I'm missing something -- and also, there's no way I'm finishing it by tomorrow. Sigh.
Ellen you’ve exactly described my reaction to Seven Moons.
Oh, good. Not good that you felt that way - but SO good to have company...
A had a lot of trouble with the first third of Seven Moons, and when I expressed frustration about it to one of my reader friends, he told me, "The novel reveals itself." And for me, it eventually did. I think it's worth sticking with, but life is short!
Oh, I'll finish it - but I'm skeptical about warming to it. We'll see...for now, I'm just more upset at it beating out The Trees for the Booker.
Risa wrote: "Also, for those who aren't already saturated with book lists, the Women's Prize longlist was announced today. Many of these books are new to me, and I find that exciting! https://www.womensprizef..."
Thank you!!
And a helpful soul has already created a Listopia, which always makes it easier for me to browse books. NONE of these are on my TBR (yet) - I'd only heard of three of them.
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...
Pod looks interesting, but I still haven't read The Bees yet, and I feel like I owe it to that book to get to it first, it's waited a long time on my TBR.
is the Discord thing happening this tournament? I was to busy with school last year to even look, and now I'm not sure how to find it. Is there an invite or is everything going to be on the tmn site this time with disqus? Both places? (sorry if this is already asked/answered. I'm still in school, but trying to ToB, too!)
Ellen wrote: "Unless it's going to change dramatically, it's coming across as the weirdest stew of Lincoln in the Bardo, A History of Seven Killings (which I couldn't even finish), and maybe The Master and Margarita (ditto), "Ha, all books I loved, which maybe explains why I loved Seven Moons!
Ehrrin, they've said they'll host it on the TMN site with disqus - we'll see if it's different! I don't know if it'll also be on discord but since there are already threads there (like here) I imagine it'll also be available for chatting, but not the primary place? But I don't know how to get access if you aren't there already...
I loved Seven Moons and did not like Bardo so insert shrug.
Zachary wrote: "A had a lot of trouble with the first third of Seven Moons, and when I expressed frustration about it to one of my reader friends, he told me, "The novel reveals itself." And for me, it eventually ..."I'm about halfway through Seven Moons, and speeding through to finish. Although it is my prediction to win, I'm not swept away by it (yet) as I'd hoped to be. I am holding out hope though.
I'm only a little over halfway through the list, but the book that did transport me in a big way is Tomorrowx3. Don't judge.
Don't be so defensive about T&T&T! It's a good book!
Kyle wrote: "Don't be so defensive about T&T&T! It's a good book!"Oh I'm not. I should have inserted a smiley face there.
I'm such a reading snob but T&T&T won me over completely. It's because of the coma chapter, maybe, which I thought was magnificent and risky. Also because of its heart, which never felt sentimental or, what's the word people use..."unearned." It was earned.
Ellen wrote: "Oh, I'll finish it - but I'm skeptical about warming to it. We'll see...for now, I'm just more upset at it beating out The Trees for the Booker."shoot. i am having your reaction to it as well but now i'm just annoyed - The Trees was everything.
and how will i ever finish...I mean, Seven moons is the Bardo-y-ist Bardo that ever there was. Does the setting of *every* book have to be there now? [Overly dramatic yawn.] Between this and The Passenger, who needs melatonin.
Lark, did you ever read Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies? Lots of risk-taking in that (both in content and format) that really won me over. Ellen, I DNF'd it at 70% and I felt so relieved.
Bob, I keep meaning to read Maps but haven’t yet. You’re not the only person here who has told me I’m going to love it. I love that I’ve been around long enough that people know what I’ll like! :-)
Lark wrote: "I'm such a reading snob but T&T&T won me over completely. It's because of the coma chapter, maybe, which I thought was magnificent and risky. Also because of its heart, which never felt sentimental..."Thank you; that's exactly how I feel. I have nothing in common, demographically, with the characters, but I was hooked immediately.
OK. I finished it, gritting my teeth the whole way, and so I am now a completist. And no, I never warmed to it, but I did find the last third at least went a little faster. So here's my list, with the caveat that I really think this was a sub-standard year. No five-star reads, and even a few of the 4- star ones were with caveats.Liked:
The Book of Goose
Dinosaurs
An Island
Mouth to Mouth
Rabbit Hutch *close to favorite
Tomorrow x 3 * probably the favorite
mostly meh, or ok, but with a lot of reservations:
2 a.m. in Little America
Nightcrawling
Sea of Tranquility
The Violin Conspiracy
OK, but really puzzled as to what they were doing in the ToB:
Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance
Olga Dies Dreaming
Found an utter slog, resulting in skimming and frustration:
Babel
Mercury Pictures Presents
My Volcano
The Passenger
The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida
Actively disliked:
Manhunt
Ellen wrote: "OK. I finished it, gritting my teeth the whole way, and so I am now a completist. ... So here's my list,..."I knew you would; I knew you would!
I'm thrilled that you show TomorrowX3 as your likely favorite. It remains my favorite, after making my own way through all of them. But other than that, Ellen, you and I are mostly experiencing different reading universes for this tourney -- ain't it intriguing how that works?
I am currently wading my way through the quick sand of Babel and I will be DONE.
Audra wrote: "I am currently wading my way through the quick sand of Babel and I will be DONE."One of my least favorite books in a very long while. You should get an award for finishing. 🙂
I don't find it terrible, there's much worse this year, it's just all over the place and too long.
OMG Finished Babel and now I'm a completist. Listed in order of liked at the moment, subject to change without notice.
The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida
Sea of Tranquility
The Passenger
Tomorrow x 3
Olga Dies Dreaming
Mercury Pictures Presents
Nightcrawling
Babel
The Violin Conspiracy
The Book of Goose
Rabbit Hutch
My Volcano
Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance
Manhunt
An Island
Dinosaurs
Mouth to Mouth
2 a.m. in Little America
Congrats, Audra! Our lists are fairly similar :)
https://twitter.com/br/status/1638566...Never something you care to see. Especially given the theme in the book of women not getting enough credit for their work.
Thanks for the link, Kip. That news is very disturbing. I do know of other games though where you only find out in the end how evil you've been by trying to win. It feels like an easy fix, too, where Zevin can credit Brenda Romero in all printings to come. Zevin could also follow up with a donation to the Anti Defamation league. I don't like the way the publisher seems to be digging its heels in, though, in the WaPo article about this, instead of trying to find a civilized way to apologize and correct the gaffe.
Oof, so disappointing! The situation should definitely be addressed with an apology and credits added to future printings. Yikes :/
5 telling me the link is invalid. Anyone wanna give me a tldr version?
Brenda Romero--1st four tweets in a longer thread--Regarding Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, my uncredited work is in the book. "Solution" is, by the author's own admission, a take on my game Train. She uses the same theme, gameplay patterns, releases the game at the same location (MIT) ...
and even uses the same language I use to describe it (it's a game about complicity). My work is not credited in her book, although her book includes extensive credits. She only acknowledged it was my work when the NY Times and Wired magazine prompted her to....
It may seem like a small thing to be bothered about, but to me, it's not. Train is likely the best game I'll ever make. It matters to me. I spent a lot of time researching it, talking with the community it represents and making something I felt was worthy.,,
Nothing was taken for granted. To have a game lifted without attribution--a game about the Holocaust, for goodness sakes--is just unacceptable.
Lark wrote: "Here is the WaPo article:https://wapo.st/3KfTDpT
This is a gift link, no paywall"
Am I missing something? Why not just be kind and honest and give a belated sorry and praise the Train game? What could be the downside to that? I can't imagine it causing an avalanche of other people coming forward claiming a work of theirs was plagiarized....
Lark wrote: "Brenda Romero--1st four tweets in a longer thread--Regarding Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, my uncredited work is in the book. "Solution" is, by the author's own admission, a take on my ga..."
I am so disappointed by this. That game is a significant moment in the novel. No doubt Zevin was inspired by many games, and I get that she might not have felt she could credit "every" one, but in this case, the comparison seems quite direct, and it would have been a very easy matter to acknowledge Ms. Romero as the inspiration. Indeed, I would have thought that she would want to acknowledge Ms. Romero even more than other (male) creators, because the gender dynamics in that industry are so much a part of the spirit and theme of this novel.
An apology plus including that missing acknowledgment in future printings is what should happen here.
Nadine in California wrote: "Lark wrote: "Here is the WaPo article:https://wapo.st/3KfTDpT
This is a gift link, no paywall"
Am I missing something? Why not just be kind and honest and give a belated sorry and praise the Tr..."
Yes, I don't understand that at all. The creator' just asking for acknowledgment, not monetary compensation, and she isn't suing. Just apologize and say you've made a mistake. Why is Knopf trying so adamantly to deny it?
And Zevin only admitted it (and not officially) when NYT held her feet to the fire. Was it an oversight initially? This is such a small part of the book and she's already acknowledging other creators, so it makes no sense.
Okay, I'm preparing to dodge your tomatoes. Zevin talks with an interviewer about the board game "Train" and its influence on the fictional video game "Solution" in Wired way back in August 2022 before anyone "calls her out on it."
https://www.wired.com/story/gabrielle...
Folks may or may not buy the distinction she is making. But she says her novel is about video games, and so she includes in her acknowledgement the video game sources that she used. Because "Train" was a board game -- never a video game -- it wasn't within the theme of the novel and not within her acknowledgements.
For myself, I think it might be asking a little much for authors of fiction to be expected to acknowledge every creator of everything they thought about while writing a fictional novel. But that's just me.
That board game vs video game distinction is not especially persuasive to me. The content parallels are … very close … and if you are going to acknowledge some creators whose works inspired the descriptions of games in the novel it seems odd to leave out this one. I think a challenge here is that “Train” isn’t famous enough for “Solution” to be an obvious homage, so it comes across more as copying someone else’s idea vs being inspired by it. I do understand what you’re saying, Phyllis, and I’m reminded of that quote, “When a writer is born into a family, the family is finished” — everyone’s life is fair game for an author’s fictive material. But this just feels different, in part because one of the key themes on which Zevin is focused here is women’s work being uncredited/ignored. If I were Zevin and the publisher, I’d just acknowledge that she intended it as tribute to and inspiration by the inventive female creator of “Train” and say that the acknowledgment section will be revised in future printings to reflect that.
I'm disappointed in Zevin too, but I can understand how it happened, and I really wish Brenda Romero had reached out to Zevin and asked her what the heck vs. telling the whole world about it as her first move. Splattering her grievance across twitter seems a little on the heinous side. If I were Zevin and that happened to me I'd be hunkering down and talking to a lawyer before making a public statement about it. It's just not very kind to go out blazing vs. trying to talk to the person you're unhappy with. "This is my 8 1/2 hours later" take.
That I can see that good point also, Lark. We all of us have to work at not attributing to malice what can otherwise be explained by oversight. Thank you for that good reminder.
Phyllis wrote: "Folks may or may not buy the distinction she is making. But she says her novel is about video games, and so she includes in her acknowledgement the video game sources that she used. Because "Train" was a board game -- never a video game -- it wasn't within the theme of the novel and not within her acknowledgements."Yeah, I certainly don't think we need to castigate Levin. I think as someone whose high school, college, and early adulthood have been heavily informed by video games AND board games (the generally European, deeper strategy variant) I think those cultures show a lot of intertwining so I am surprised that she didn't add it to the page of video games that heavily inspired in the book. Especially because as pointed out by Brenda Romero, her husband is mentioned within a couple times WITHIN the book.
I certainly don't think it diminishes my view of the book. And I do not have a strong opinion on the right answer. I thought that "Solution" was very, very cool as an idea and maybe I am just a bit chuffed (definition #2) to find out it wasn't an entirely original idea. But she never said it was, and plenty of ideas in books are not original and I do not hold it against the author whatsoever. So all this to say, ok and I don't know!
Risa wrote: "Tim wrote: "Risa wrote: "Also, for those who aren't already saturated ..."How did a memoir make the fiction prize list?"
I can't quite figure it out, except that the author chose to give the cha..."
With a "different name" it suddenly becomes Fiction?!!!
I loved the judges' discussions of The Book of Goose. How can I find them to read them again? Thanks to anyone who is willing to help me find them. I'm especially interested in the reason the judge give for choosing this book as the winner of the Tournament. But I'd love to see earlier discussions of this book as well. I loved it!!!!
Jane wrote: "I loved the judges' discussions of The Book of Goose. How can I find them to read them again?..."https://www.tournamentofbooks.com/202...
Audra wrote: "Wasn't sure where else to throw this, Cormac McCarthy diedhttps://wapo.st/43ClZSl"
I just saw that! I'm glad he got to publish his last books, and saw their success before he passed. I loved The Passenger and Stella Maris, had a hard time stomaching some of his other books but the brilliance was obvious.
Yes, in theory, he's someone I wouldn't enjoy but really did. I loved The Passenger for reasons I can't even explain.
I know McCarthy comes with complications, but I've loved most of his work and was incredibly impressed with The Passenger. Interestingly I'd just put Stella Maris on hold at the library this morning.I was tempted to have ChatGPT write me an obituary in the style of Cormac McCarthy but held back.
Tournament of Books
Books mentioned in this topic
Blood Meridian, or, the Evening Redness in the West (other topics)No Country for Old Men (other topics)
All the Pretty Horses (other topics)
Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies (other topics)
The Bees (other topics)
More...
Risa wrote: "Homesick, by Jennifer Croft. From the author's website: "The book was written in Spanish first, as a novel called Serpientes y escaleras, and then as a memoir in English, called Homesick. Neither t..."
Interesting. (The originally published 2019 cover explicitly says it's a memoir, too.) I like Jennifer Croft's translations, she really can write, so I'm intrigued to see what she does with her own story.
The Dog of the North is written by Elizabeth McKenzie, who also wrote The Portable Veblen, which I loved, so I'm interested in that also.
Also interested in Black Butterfly and Cursed Bread, and Memphis has been on my TBR. Of course my library has almost none of these yet, and their Suggest for Purchase takes FORever.