All Systems Red (The Murderbot Diaries #1)[September 1, 2023]

[Paula]

this is my second time reading the first novella and the same with the second one. I didn't continue for no reason since I loved Murderbot

finished! (view spoiler)[ Murderbot is the best! And I agree that Dr Mensah was a very nice character since she was competente and gave Murderbot space. And I relate to wanting to watch or read all day haha

I loved when they tested murderbot on the show it watched since they said the amount of house downloaded was too much and it was thinking that they underestimate it (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

*laughs in hyperfixation*

[Gaea]

@Mel - omg that shirt is too awesomeee! Maybe I should get one one day...

@Paula - That was one of my favourite parts too! I also liked (view spoiler)[pretty much any moment of Murderbot physically reacting (in horror, awkwardness) to something in front of people and the implication the other people suddenly realising that wait maybe this SecUnit has actual feelings. I've always wanted to see those scenes through the eyes of the humans, see what went through their minds when Murderbot's face reacts so negatively to being offered to hang out with them. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Found the T-Shirt... might need to get one for meself too...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/10400589...

[Paula]

Gaea, yeah, completely agree, that would have been fun to read

[Beena]

Mel wrote: "Beena, I wish we were closer so I could just lend you a copy. If I had them on Kindle I would gift them over.

Drat on the timing. I remember Tor gave out the first four novella ebooks for free lea..."

Aw thanks Mel, that's really sweet of you!

I just popped by the library earlier anyway and asked if they could order them in; the person on the desk is gonna ask whoever's in charge of that and I should find out in a couple of weeks whether they can. So, we'll see!

[Narilka]

Finished! I'd remembered (view spoiler)[Murderbot had gone it's own way but didn't remember why. I like how Mel put it - Murderbot asserting its full autonomy. I'm hoping that at the end of the series Murderbot goes "home" and at least checks the farm out. (hide spoiler)]

I also went ahead and started the second novella :D

[Nyssa]

Rating - 4.5 (rounded to 5)

I enjoyed this; it was a fun read!

In my review, I said:

Murderbot is an interesting character - and this first installment almost feels like a coming-of-age story. I am sad (view spoiler)[that he's chosen to leave the team he's with, especially Dr. Mensah (hide spoiler)], but I understand, and I look forward to seeing what's next. I also wonder if there will be any cameos along the way.

[Mel]

@Narilka
Re:Murderbot's choice in the end
(view spoiler)[It would be interesting to see Murderbot (a fully actualized Murderbot) meet the rest of Dr. Mensah's family. Hahaha, oh dear. I can't help but imagine what torture it would be for it to be there. Filled with people. Introductions. A peaceful pastoral scene without a single menace to defend against? I feel antsy wanting to establish a perimeter on Murderbot's behalf just thinking about it.

Actually, it reminds me of the guardian dog on my cousin's farm. It HAS to be outside patrolling at all times. Even when it's -40 outside in the middle of a snowstorm. They tried to put her in the barn for her own safety and she started vomiting from anxiety. She has to be able to protect her livestock. That's her purpose. She wouldn't be happy cosy by the fire inside. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

@Nyssa

It's an interesting litmus test to see if readers ascribe a gender to Murderbot.
Eeeen-tah-res-tink... very eentahrestink.

[Nyssa]

Mel wrote: "@Nyssa

It's an interesting litmus test to see if readers ascribe a gender to Murderbot.
Eeeen-tah-res-tink... very eentahrestink."

The narrator of the audio version sounds male.

[Mel]

Ah. It makes sense that would colour your impression of the character.

[Nirkatze]

Mel wrote: "Ah. It makes sense that would colour your impression of the character."

That's interesting... this will be my first time doing the audiobook--but my fourth or fifth reread of the series. I've always gravitated towards thinking of Murderbot as male too--or at least, the impression is that the body it has is male, but Murderbot does seem to think of itself as an "it" or maybe "they"?

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nyssa wrote: "Mel wrote: "@Nyssa

It's an interesting litmus test to see if readers ascribe a gender to Murderbot.
Eeeen-tah-res-tink... very eentahrestink."

The narrator of the audio version sounds male."

You know, John Scalzi has an androgynous robot/android series on Audible... the books are never clear on whether the original human is male or female:

Lock In & Head On... and he actually released 2 audiobooks for each book... one narrated by Wil Wheaton, and one narrated by Amber Benson...

To really sell the fact that the gender is ambiguous and doesn't really matter...

In the past, I'd probably have unconsciously assigned a gender, but at this point, I think I've listened to enough audiobooks with mismatched narrators, and watch enough online content with nonbinary and trans performers, that go by they, that I don't really know anymore...

[Felina]

Interesting. I assumed Murderbot was female. I didn’t even get an androgynous vibe. I’m going to have to check my biases. I just read it so I had no narrator to color it for me.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Felina wrote: "Interesting. I assumed Murderbot was female. I didn’t even get an androgynous vibe. I’m going to have to check my biases. I just read it so I had no narrator to color it for me."

Do you self-identify as a murderous killing machine? :D

I feel like, outside of any obvious genetic/gender markers, it's common to insert yourself into the stories you're reading, and leads to defaulting to an own-gender assumption...

There are plenty of stories out there that are intended to be read that way... I think I even read somewhere how a 27 year old woman is the perfect vessel for that kind of storytelling...

[Felina]

On most days, yes.

[Gaea]

I see Murderbot as genderless (it does always refer to itself as "it") but perhaps physically more on the masculine side of androgyny, on account of all the (often) strenuous security stuff it was made for.

[Mel]

Timelord Iain wrote: "You know, John Scalzi has an androgynous robot/android series on Audible... the books are never clear on whether the original human is male or female:

Lock In & Head On... and he actually released 2 audiobooks for each book... one narrated by Wil Wheaton, and one narrated by Amber Benson..."

Ah yes, I think I remember us discussing this before. I read Lock In, but never got around to Head On. That's cool they got two different voices for the audiobooks.

[Ann-Marie]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Nyssa wrote: "Mel wrote: "@Nyssa

It's an interesting litmus test to see if readers ascribe a gender to Murderbot.
Eeeen-tah-res-tink... very eentahrestink."

The narrator of the audio version sou..."

My irl book club read The Kaiju Preservation Society and someone asked what gender Jamie was and none of us remembered that being stated so maybe that is a Scalzi thing? As far as Murderbot goes I enjoyed it enough that I wanted fanart to add to my book journal and all of the images I found were male for what that is worth lol

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Ann-Marie wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Nyssa wrote: "Mel wrote: "@Nyssa

It's an interesting litmus test to see if readers ascribe a gender to Murderbot.
Eeeen-tah-res-tink... very eentahrestink."

The narrator of..."

I never noticed... I think that's indicative of Scalzi's storytelling... I read the book a year ago, and never noticed...

Being an audiobook listener, Kaiju is narrated by Wil Wheaton, who narrates 99% of everything Scalzi writes... so that made me assume male...

Honestly, I'm fine with ambiguous characters... until it gets stupid obnoxious... and by that, I mean the ambiguity inherent in books like A Psalm for the Wild-Built + A Prayer for the Crown-Shy, where the MC uses LGBT nouns, but then the author goes on to describe bodily functions/bathing/clothes changing, and has to skirt around descriptions with terms like groinal area and urinary orifice (those aren't the actual words used, I just know it was something glaring)

[Felina]

I guess if it doesn’t matter to the story then it’s fine to be vague. I really can’t remember why I thought Murderbot was a woman. When I read the next one I’m going to have to think about that.

[Mel]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Honestly, I'm fine with ambiguous characters... until it gets stupid... "

Non-binary people also have to pee and bathe. And using non-gendered language to describe a non-gendered person is simply what you do. Nothing stupid about it.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Mel wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Honestly, I'm fine with ambiguous characters... until it gets stupid... "

Non-binary people also have to pee and bathe. And using non-gendered language to describe a non-gend..."

Stupid was the wrong term... not sure obnoxious is better, even tho I edited the original post...

And I'm never going to do my thoughts justice, right or wrong, when I can't even remember the exact terminology I'm referring to...

I understand people pee and bathe... I guess I just incorrectly felt that body parts didn't have to be gendered...

Since originally posting above, I did some googling/research into accepted terminology for genitals among transgender, nonbinary, and genderfluid people... and while they make clear it's very subjective and individual, and they give alot of examples, I didn't see the phrasing I was referring to in any of the lists...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

So... I found the sentence/wording that drove me crazy in A Prayer for the Crown-Shy... it was:

"Sibling Dex returned their trousers to their proper configuration."

It felt like such a weird way to avoid saying whether Dex zipped or pulled up their pants, when they could have just said "Sibling Dex made themselves presentable"...

It was in a scene where Sibling Dex was peeing behind the wagon, and Mosscap awkwardly continued the philosophical discussion/epiphany they were having...

[Choko]

"As a heartless killing machine, I was a terrible failure!"

How can you not fall in love with him from the first paragraph?!?!

[Felina]

Choko wrote: ""As a heartless killing machine, I was a terrible failure!"

How can you not fall in love with him from the first paragraph?!?!"

It makes me want to get a beer with Murderbot.

[Gaea]

@Choko -
Murderbot makes it so easy to fall in love with it! Its snark is top-tier XD

@Ian -
That does sound odd. "Proper configuration" kind of makes me think that Sibling Dex isn't human; it's definitely not a description I'd think in relation to a piece of clothing, let alone a human being. Too mechanical sounding. Also, a simple "pulled up their pants" would have worked regardless of gender, so the awkward phrasing is a bit...eh.

[Choko]

Iain, I totally agree on that weird sentence. If you are going to go with nonbinary characters, then don't bring those types of scenarios into the story. They are irrelevant anyway, and are there just to make sure we are once again reminded of the character's gender. I don't like it in books with sis characters either. Honestly, the overcorrection is getting annoying. The non-traditional genders will not be fully accepted until we stop including those redundant reminders of how different they are. Just treat their characters as all the rest, this is full acceptance. This happened in the 90's with homosexual characters. At first they were portrayed in an exaggerated, almost caricature-like way, and people were pushing back. However, once they became just one of the many, only then were they fully accepted, and now we take them for granted with no reservations.

As you said, that whole scene could have been either skipped, or just stated that they got dressed...

[Choko]

I definitely showed my bias, because I called MB a him... MB is definitely an it, but I am also listening to the book, and the male narrator leads me to want to say him... I need to check myself, because I am very well aware that just because someone is a biological male doesn't make them a him... Sorry about that...

However, right away, I want to adopt MB! It reminds me of my Jack so much! It just belongs in my household:))

Mel, the story of your aunt's dog - it just warmed my heart!!! I hope it is doing well and is taking care of its flock!!!:)))

[Nirkatze]

Gaea wrote: "I see Murderbot as genderless (it does always refer to itself as "it") but perhaps physically more on the masculine side of androgyny, on account of all the (often) strenuous security stuff it was ..."

That's where my brain went--Security = Male--plus the whole (view spoiler)[no sex organs thing meaning no breasts (hide spoiler)] so the physical type would be more beefy than curvy, I assumed.

I also know that mentally, I have a hard time instinctually labelling something as non-binary, unless the physical presentation is very clearly androgynous--my hind brain just wants to label things "he" or "she" and has to be overwritten to understand that physical sex or appearance is not the same as gender identity. In that sense, stories like this are good mental "training," I think...

[Tonari no Emily]

Timelord Iain wrote: "So... I found the sentence/wording that drove me crazy in A Prayer for the Crown-Shy... it was:

"Sibling Dex returned their trousers to their proper configuration."

It felt like s..."

I feel like that sentence was just weirdly worded and wasnt necessarily trying to work around Dex being agender..

[Tonari no Emily]

My bias for Murderbot was more male, but mostly because of the narrator. But Murderbot most definitely doesnt want a gender and I remember from future books (view spoiler)[ MB specifically says it wants to be referred to as "it"
Which is uncomfy to us as we would see "it" as being more of a thing than a person.. I went down a reddit rabbithole at some point about that. I like the points brought up in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/murderbot/co... (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

@Iain
I can see how the sentence sounds a little awkward. Fair enough. Same as Tonari no Emily, I just didn't associate it with being nonbinary. But good on you for looking up terminology. I'd have to agree it's pretty individualized. In many cases I think the emphasis is, "None of your business. Why should it matter?" So when a story goes out of its way to not hint one way or the other, even if it sounds awkward to cis readers, it's in reaction to the barrage of questions that trans/non-binary people get about their bodies, and it feels freeing for it to be so decisively a non-issue.

@Choko
I actually think Wild-Built is a great example of presenting a non-binary character and just letting them be unapologetically themself. I know what you're talking about though. There's this pattern of when media about a marginalized community first comes out, it's made to educate others, or to make the characters "palatable," with an emphasis on, "Look, [scary minority] person is just like you and me!" So it's refreshing once you can get to the storylines where characters are simply allowed to exist. And finally to unmask and say, "Actually no, we aren't just like you, and we shouldn't have to be."

And yes, my cousin's dog is doing well, herding its livestock (and children) making sure they are safe! 🌸(((^_^)))🌸

@Tonari no Emily
re:pronouns
I know this is about Murderbot, not Wild-Built, but I can't help but make comparisons. I remember there being a conversation there about robots as "Things" and "It"s being seen as lesser. But for those who see a machine as equal, than "it" will no longer be derogatory. It makes me thing of how traditionally feminine things are considered shameful or lesser. The color pink. Chick flicks. "You run like a girl." But once you no longer look down on femininity, then it's no longer an insult to be feminine or like those things.

Interesting conversation in the link you shared. For my part, I think Murderbot in future books (view spoiler)[can choose to stay an "it" if it wants, and shouldn't have to take on a human pronoun. I like how "it" claims the robot part of its identity. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Felina wrote: "Choko wrote: ""It makes me want to get a beer with Murderbot."

Murderbot might have some slight discomfort about that... (minor spoiler about food/drink) (view spoiler)[From what I remember, SecUnits can't actually process food or drink. I couldn't remember exactly how it works, so I looked up a wiki and it says that food/drink ends up in its lungs and has to cough it back up, which is... unpleasant. (hide spoiler)] Maybe you could both go out for a beer, and then just sit side by side, looking forward, and Murderbot can just... hold its beer for the aesthetic. 🤣

[Ryan]

Choko wrote: "Iain, I totally agree on that weird sentence. If you are going to go with nonbinary characters, then don't bring those types of scenarios into the story. They are irrelevant anyway, and are there j..."

Agree that it's a weird sentence, disagree that you must leave these scenarios out - if it fits in the story, why not? I don't think nonbinary people should be excluded.

I initially read Murderbot as female, probably just because the author is. But after it became quite clear that MB is neither male nor female, I changed the labels in my mind to xe/xer. I'm not comfortable with "it" for someone with human-level intellect and emotions, and I don't like "they" either because it's plural.

[Choko]

Ryan, I agree they shouldn't be excluded. Just include them as every other character, not as a curiosity. This is when full integration happens:)))

[Felina]

I just finished this and I still spent the whole time visualizing Murderbot as a woman. And I still can’t figure out why it doesn’t do anything inherently female or male. Whatever. I give up.

[Rob]

Doing all the books in the same thread? Really enjoyed book 1 and curious to see where it all goes.

Strangely, at the same time, I'm reading book 2 of the Wild Robot Series The Wild Robot Escapes. There are some parallels!

Gong to start book 2 of this tonight.

[Nirkatze]

Rob wrote: "Doing all the books in the same thread? Really enjoyed book 1 and curious to see where it all goes.

Strangely, at the same time, I'm reading book 2 of the Wild Robot Series [book:The Wild Robot E..."

We were originally going to do a book-club style thread, but Yanique convinced us to split them up. The threads for each individual book should be linked properly in the BR sheet etc.

Added Wild Robot series to TBR! It looks fun!

Regarding pronouns--I'd normally feel the same as Ryan--I wish that SF non-binary pronouns caught on before the generic use of they/them--but I also believe in just doing whatever the person themself says... and while I can't put a finger on specifically where and why, but I definitely got the impression that Murderbot would prefer "it" over any gendered or humanizing pronouns...

[Chris]

Started today....Had a day to wait to start next audio and needed something for now..

[Felina]

These are great. You’ll love it!

[Chris]

Eh....That was okay but was really difficult to stay focused...

[Felina]

Interesting.

[Chris]

Heh....Is that your way of saying, "huh, well you're an idiot"?

[Felina]

Ha ha. No, that’s me being surprised because we’ve always aligned pretty closely so I thought you would like it as much as I did.

[Nirkatze]

I always find it hard to focus on an audiobook if it's a new story and/or new narrator, unless I'm doing a reread... I love these books in print so much that the audio was a treat. I do have to wonder what my impression would be if I started out with the audio, though.

[Felina]

I read the first two with kindle unlimited and got the third one on audio. My library didn’t have the first two on audio or I would have started that way. Interestingly enough, as a primary audio reader, I prefer reading the kindle books. I’m considering abandoning the audiobook and moving back to kindle. I think for once I enjoy my internal voice better which is insane.

[Chris]

I think that's a big part of it, Nirkatze...I know it's easier to get characters straight when I can see their names instead of having them all thrown at me in audio...

Heck, even in real life I almost always forget someone's name when I'm meeting them the first time. They say it, I hear it, and promptly forget what it was.

Felina, it happens. We can't always agree lol

[Felina]

I’m sure it’s happened before.

The last few years I’ve gotten real bad with names. I have to meet someone several times before I remember their name. It’s bad.