The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2022 Booker Shortlist Discussion
Alwynne wrote: "But doesn't that stereotype relate to straight men in hetero marriages? Gay marriage has been legal here for quite some time so 'husband' no longer automatically connotes straight male, thankfully! Although why straight men should not be assumed to be readers also escapes me."Agreed. I don't know why this stereotype persists.
This sounds like one of those instances where the Internet it just looking for something to be outraged about given that she was playing off of the group's own description of itself.
I'm still miffed I can't get a copy of Garner's book without an overseas order (no library options, no e-book options). (I'm not actually upset as I still have quite a few of the shortlist left to read.)
Marc wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "But doesn't that stereotype relate to straight men in hetero marriages? Gay marriage has been legal here for quite some time so 'husband' no longer automatically connotes straight m..."But it's interesting that the report simply reproduced it without thinking of the connotations, the term dinner lady also a bit dubious here these days.
David no the outrage is at her being deemed to be condescending to Woking class people (steel worker and dinner lady). But it’s all a little manufactured tbh
This article shows both the outrage, the resulting “bit surely it’s the groups own idea of being “eclectic” and a brief statement by Gaby Wood
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...
And not sure I get the “husband” part - was that said by one of the group off camera which lead to the laugh - it’s not anything Wood says on the widely circulated clip.
Plus that laugh is pretty much her speaking style. But thinking which book may benefit feels like this is positive for Treacle Walker.
The term "dinner lady" is an entirely new one for me.Maybe that reading group just proves that insensitive common folk read Booker books, too!
:o
Dinner lady seems to mean the same thing as lunch lady in the US. Although presumably serving dinner instead of lunch??
Er, no, they serve lunch in schools... which some people call dinner!
David wrote: "Dinner lady seems to mean the same thing as lunch lady in the US. Although presumably serving dinner instead of lunch??"no they still serve lunch :) - At least in Malta we call lunch ladies dinner ladies as well.
To deviate I always found the concept of tea a bit confusing - does that mean a pre supper snack? or does it actually mean supper? look it up and you get different definitions.
Yes dinner is used for the meal in the middle of the day in England David particularly if you are working class - I would certainly say “dinner lady”
David wrote: "Dinner lady seems to mean the same thing as lunch lady in the US. Although presumably serving dinner instead of lunch??"They're actually called catering assistants or kitchen assistants or lunch servers now, the role is no longer automatically represented as gendered female - so quite outdated/stereotypical
David wrote: "Dinner lady seems to mean the same thing as lunch lady in the US. Although presumably serving dinner instead of lunch??"Also as R C suggests, dinner refers to different meals in different parts of the country, as does tea, supper etc and the terms used for particular meals have class as well as regional implications.
Add this to pencil case as something I've learned from this forum.
Alwynne wrote: "David wrote: "Dinner lady seems to mean the same thing as lunch lady in the US. Although presumably serving dinner instead of lunch??"They're actually called catering assistants or kitchen assist..."
of course - I should have specified in my youth (doesn't make it better obviously but it was a different time)
To Alwynne and RCs point in class/regional differences and assuming a meal around midday and one in the evening I grew up (working class and in the east) with dinner and tea as the two main meals
Now (more middle class ) I would probably say lunch and dinner (and my children definitely would)
Some people (normally a little posher and especially in the South) might say lunch then supper
In last two contexts tea as a meal is more used for an afternoon meal of tea, sandwiches and cake
Over here (in the US), lunch and supper are the two main meal events. Usually dinner connotes a more formal supper. We might have less variation on this than the UK.A somewhat subtle class marker is what time dinner/supper is eaten. The earlier it is, the more likely to indicate working or lower middle class. Although with families so busy these days, that's not always true.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "To Alwynne and RCs point in class/regional differences and assuming a meal around midday and one in the evening I grew up (working class and in the east) with dinner and tea as the two main meals..."
Great summary Gumble, brunch is also now a thing but I assume that was an American import, so I have brunch at weekends or go out for it sometimes. I have lunch and supper usually but go out for dinner!
David wrote: "Over here (in the US), lunch and supper are the two main meal events. Usually dinner connotes a more formal supper. We might have less variation on this than the UK.A somewhat subtle class marker..."
I didn't know about the time thing, I've heard about early bird dinners through things like Seinfeld, related to age and income. I think but Gumble can confirm or deny, that tea tends to be earlier here when it's an evening meal.
In Maltese we simplify thatLunch = Ikla ta nofs in-nar (midday meal)
Supper = Ikla tal-lejl (Evening meal)
Although we are a bilingual country English is still seen as the language of educated and high class people so those will use the terms dinner, supper, tea, high tea etc. (coming from a family of teachers and lecturers - me being one as well puts me in the lower middle strata of our island's society)
Brunch is a relatively new concept but has crept in, it's more a restaurant thing though
Dinner is lunch?!!This is all too much for me. Last night I learned that an umlaut and a diaeresis look identical but serve different functions.
My whole world is unraveling..
For us, brunch implies a gathering of friends at a restaurant where alcohol is consumed. Without alcohol, it's just breakfast (or lunch). For those of us over 40, brunch is traditionally followed by a nap.
David wrote: "For us, brunch implies a gathering of friends at a restaurant where alcohol is consumed. Without alcohol, it's just breakfast (or lunch). For those of us over 40, brunch is traditionally followed b..."Brunch here doesn't have to include alcohol and - depending on where you're based - just as likely to be a large organic, veggie or vegan meal with tofu scramble, sourdough muffins etc in a cafe particularly in places like Brighton or various parts of London
Depends on the restaurant but it tallies with what Alwynne said - some offer it buffet style
Regardless, she saw fit to point out the steelworker and the dinner lady but not the civil servant. I don't think she should be cancelled or anything, but a day of outrage won't kill her.
Emily wrote: "Regardless, she saw fit to point out the steelworker and the dinner lady but not the civil servant. I don't think she should be cancelled or anything, but a day of outrage won't kill her."
Exactly!
That’s about right and I think has happened now.
Re Gaby Wood: I missed the whole drama, as per ususal. But I do have a lot of royalists in my twitter-feed, it turns out.
“At weekends” is also British, here we would say “brunch on weekends.” I grew up with lunch and supper, but I usually say dinner. My mother cannot get used to our late dinner hour. We usually have dinner around 7, if one of us feels like cooking, another thing my mother can’t understand. I on the other hand, can’t fathom making an entire meal every 24 hours!I learned a lot here: pudding is dessert, not only the creamy stuff, jumpers are sweaters, tea is a light meal, and tea the beverage is made at times of stress to have something to do and as a comforting ritual.
Regarding her laugh about a husband, sadly that is what I see. I don’t know any men in real life who read fiction. I know a few older men who read historical fiction once in awhile, and the one man I peripherally know, an educated man, who does read fiction, doesn’t read women authors! So sadly, Ms Wood wasn’t off base joking about husbands, gay or straight, who read and join book groups.
My U.S. friends might remember the Chris Farley, Adam Sandler skit about the Lunch Lady on Saturday Night Live.
Oh! And I learned from Sam Jordison on the Across the Pond podcast today that when a Brit says, “he’s punching” it refers to a man dating a woman too good looking or sharp for him, as in he’s punching above his weight.
I have book club this evening and the only male we've had in attendance is the resident cat, Leo. Sadly, he died a few weeks back, so we are back to all females. For what it's worth, I feel bad for Gaby Wood.
I agree, Debra. It’s unfair to put a piece of video on the internet with no context and with no indication of what was said before or after the clip.
My condolences for Leo, Debra. My hometown bookstore was swarmed with cats. There was a division of the store marked out for book club meetings that had a fireplace and the cats would frequently come out and nestle themselves by it for warmth. They are wonderful creatures and, in a pinch, surprisingly useful discussion aids.
As a kid on the farm, we had lunch and supper, except on Sundays, Thanksgiving, and Christmas when it was dinner and supper.
In NZ we have Breakfast, Morning tea, Lunch, Afternoon tea, Dinner and Supper. Of course most people dont have all of those. Morning tea, Afternoon tea and supper would just be a snack. And personally I dont have breakfast either.And we dont have dinner ladies because dont have school lunches. Everyone has to take their own lunch to school.
Cordelia wrote: "In NZ we have Breakfast, Morning tea, Lunch, Afternoon tea, Dinner and Supper. Of course most people dont have all of those. Morning tea, Afternoon tea and supper would just be a snack. And persona..."So there really is Second Breakfast! What about elevensies? Luncheons, afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper?
The "husband" comment just underlines that I live in a different (maybe preferable) reality. I know men are less likely to read fiction, but I'm surrounded by fiction-reading men, including my dad, uncles, husband, boss (when he can be pried away from the news) and all our fiction-reading men on here!
WndyJW wrote: "“At weekends” is also British, here we would say “brunch on weekends.” I grew up with lunch and supper, but I usually say dinner. My mother cannot get used to our late dinner hour. We usually have ..."That was the first thing that popped in my head! Sloppy Joe, slop, slop, sloppy Joe..
This has been a fascinating discussion all around (I’m just catching up on the shortlist discussion since work has been busy since Tuesday)! I think this is a strange shortlist. I’m sorry The Colony isn’t on the list, but I’m glad Trees is. I didn’t care for Treacle W (sorry), and I liked/not loved Small Things. Oh William! was fine. I guess I’m voting for Trees, but I still need to read Glory and Seven Moons, so I could change my mind. p.s. Like many of you, we eat breakfast in the morning, lunch mid-day, and dinner in the evening. Anything else is a snack.
”That was the first thing that popped in my head! Sloppy Joe, slop, slop, sloppy Joe..”It’s not brilliant comedy so I don’t post the YouTube link!
You do live in preferable reality, Emily.
When do you eat Second Breakfast, Gwendolyn? :)
Four of my personal top six favorites made it, so I'm pretty happy with the shortlist. I was sorry not to find The Colony, but I figured it would be either The Colony or Small Things Like These, but not both.Regarding the meal conversation, breakfast, lunch, and dinner here. Same as Gwendolyn.
But_i_thought_ wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I've said enough on the dedicated thread why I was underwhelmed by The Colony so won't repeat myself."I too wasn't a huge fan of The Colony. The book reads like the careful c..."
This, perfect.
Oh William was my favourite although I read in January and didn’t think it would be shortlisted as I find a mid series contender a bit odd. It does fit with the short category.
Seven Moons was my runner up, not sure it will win but I thought it was great and Bookery.
I did not get Treacle Walker.
Small Things was beautiful and it had a start, middle and end which was impressive in such a small novel.
I feel like Glory will win, it had some wonderful chapters but not always engaging.
I’m new, thank you to David for inviting me here. I hope it was okay to jump in here.
Mod
I agree Glory may well win. Treacle Walker is the wild card.
The Trees is my favourite so far (I still need to read Glory). Similarly to Lou I completely didn't get Treacle Walker. I wonder if there is anything I am missing with my previous reading that could've help me understand this book.
WndyJW wrote: "”That was the first thing that popped in my head! Sloppy Joe, slop, slop, sloppy Joe..”It’s not brilliant comedy so I don’t post the YouTube link!
You do live in preferable reality, Emily.
When..."
Haha, Second Breakfast sounds like a wonderful concept! But I don’t generally eat anything between breakfast and lunch. I do tend to snack a lot in the afternoon, though. Maybe that’s Second Lunch?
I have second breakfast, usually fruit.
The Trees is my favourite of this year's shortlist, but when I was reading The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida, I had a hinting suspicion I was reading the Booker winner. I had that feeling before with The Promise and Shuggie Bain, so I'm trusting that suspicion here again.
Would not surprise me also but I think I could say the same for all the books other than Oh, William Girl Women Other and Shuggie Bain were likely winners before even the longlist was published
Reading all the comments, and nobody favoring the Strout, I guess Oh William! will win.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Girl, Woman, Other (other topics)Glory (other topics)
The Trees (other topics)
Small Things Like These (other topics)
Oh William! (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
NoViolet Bulawayo (other topics)Percival Everett (other topics)
Alan Garner (other topics)
Shehan Karunatilaka (other topics)
Claire Keegan (other topics)
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I think there's the stereoty..."
But doesn't that stereotype relate to straight men in hetero marriages? Gay marriage has been legal here for quite some time so 'husband' no longer automatically connotes straight male, thankfully! Although why straight men should not be assumed to be readers also escapes me.