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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
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Your thoughts about "Little Dorrit" are spot on. She is unassuming, and hopes to have "no name" except through her relationship to others.
Bridget - Your literary antennae are working full blast too! Absolutely that sentence means something - we just don't know what yet :)
Fiona - Yes, it's a sobering thought :(
This really was a wonderful chapter with such a wide range of experience for the characters and the reader. First, Little Dorrit gives her impression of Arthur before she herself has an experience unlike any other she has had before. I was struck by that brief, happy interlude in the church where she was was recognized, greeted and welcomed as one of the church’s “curiosities.” It seems that she is more widely known than she may realize. I know this church was near Marshalsea, but to have the rector be able to spout her parentage at a moment’s notice seems odd. Does Little Dorrit have a name, a reputation of some kind that she and we aren’t aware of, I wonder.Also, there were some really great passages in this chapter, some already cited. Dickens excels when he introduces new physical spaces, new emotional landscapes, physical motion, and movement in nature. Lots of these in this chapter. And signs of lots more to come.
Sue, I enjoyed that she and Maggy found refuge in the church as well. It was a little odd to give her a pillow of the death registries. Great thought about her renown. It does seem that she is well known and she may not even realize how much.Bridget that quote was one that definitely spoke to me and I'm so glad you mentioned it. It's one full of mystery.
A theme of freedom seems to be popping up as we have seen so many instances of prisons of various kinds. Here we see Little Dorrit and Maggy out on the streets of London for the very first time essentially free but wanting so desperately to be back in their "home". This contrasts when Arthur was caught in the Marshalsea overnight and his freedom was revoked and he experienced what it was like to be imprisoned with little freedom or none at all for the prisoners.
That’s a great contrast, Lori, different concepts of “home” “freedom”.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "Not at all Lori! You make great observations! And you had an inkling - it didn't just pass you by - which proves it :) We can't pick up ever single nuance and reference ... e.g. Flora's twittery ra..."Thanks Jean, I will just go with the flow and enjoy myself as I have been so far!
I love reading all your comments in the morning :)Lori you always have great insights and articulate them so well.
It’s amazing how much Dickens puts in one chapter. We find out a bit more about Amy, we get pointers to where the story is going (the woman hanging around Fanny, Flintwinch following Amy) and then Dickens contrasts the different sides of London. Dickens spent so much time walking around the city I wouldn’t be surprised if the people Amy and Maggy encounter are personal experiences or observations of Dickens himself.
Lori wrote: " When I read Dickens now after starting with this group with A Christmas Carol, then Dombey and Son with the group read and now two buddy reads ..."Lori, I really enjoy reading through your views and impressions, and I always think you have truly insightful thoughts. Its funny I started with this group exactly the same time you did, with A Christmas Carol, and I feel exactly like you do; sometimes I feel like I understand Dickens more and sometimes I miss his point. Thats one reason I enjoy these Buddy Reads so much. I find between our conversations, and Jean's original thread summaries the gaps in my reading get filled up. I don't have any great reading tips for you (Jean's go with the flow is the best) I just want you to know you are not alone in feeling lost sometimes.
Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: " When I read Dickens now after starting with this group with A Christmas Carol, then Dombey and Son with the group read and now two buddy reads ..."Lori, I really enjoy reading throu..."
Thanks Bridget! I always think your insights are spot on and I'd never have thought you were ever lost! HA! I couldn't be happier to have this wonderful group of buddies! 😊 I certainly appreciate everyone's insights and views and love the way you said that all of our efforts help to fill up any reading gap. I love reading this way!
Lori - I hadn’t thought of the contrast between Arthur being kept in Marshalsea overnight and Little Dorrit being kept out. Thank you for that!Sue - your comment re the descriptive passages - I’m enjoying that aspect of the book so much more than I would have expected. There have been some wonderful descriptions and, as you say, there is so much more to come.
All of your comments are so helpful. I’m finding it so rewarding reading this way as everyone finds something different or new to highlight in every chapter. I must miss so much reading other books when I only have my own eyes to rely on!
It’s a clever contrast by Dickens as Arthur’s night locked in was much better and more comfortable than Amy’s night locked out!
Janelle wrote: "It’s a clever contrast by Dickens as Arthur’s night locked in was much better and more comfortable than Amy’s night locked out!"Good point, Janelle!
Link to Chapter 15 summary[image error]
Mr and Mrs Flintwinch by Sol Eytinge 1871
Sorry, I don’t know what’s wrong today, loading images isn’t working for me. Very frustrating.
Poor Affery, those clever people talking again. I’m not quite sure what to make of this chapter. Mrs. Clennam claims not to know Little Dorrits address and says she doesn’t want to know, so does she know the Dorrits or not? I laughed out loud at this paragraph, the image of Affery walking around with her apron over the head is so comical!
“But, for all that, she now began to entertain a settled conviction that there was something wrong in the gloomy house. Henceforth, she was never at peace in it after daylight departed; and never went up or down stairs in the dark without having her apron over her head, lest she should see something.”
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I guess it must be from life. My grandmother (and my mother too, when I was little) wore a full apron all day. Presumably this was to protect their clothes when they were working in the house. But I never saw either of them do this. You could only do it with a waist one, I suppose!
I’m not sure what to make of it either, Janelle. Dickens sets the scene beautifully for a chapter that is all quite unearthly and mysterious. There is definitely a story behind Mrs Clennam taking on Little Dorrit. Perhaps she doesn’t want to admit to herself that her home might be somewhere unpalatable to her? One which will make her feel more guilty than she possible does already?
There is also definitely a story behind Mr Clennam Snr that Flintwinch is being asked to keep from Arthur, for whatever reason. Poor Mrs Flintwinch is half out of her mind with worry and fear which isn’t surprising with such a bully for a husband. Does anyone have any idea what the noises are she hears? Is she imagining them? Are they just the building settling? Or is she hearing activity going on elsewhere in the building that we don’t know about yet?
Certainly there is a story that Dickens will reveal in his time pertaining to the connection between the Clennam's and the Dorrit's. I picked up on the story about Sr Clennam but no clues popped out about what it could be about.As far as Affery and the noises she hears, I believe she is really hearing something. With what we know about Flintwinch wanting to confuse her, he is playing the noise down as "just rats, etc". Could it possibly be his doppelgänger hiding somewhere in the house again?
I also have been enamored with the way in which Dickens sets up the mood in the beginning of a chapter like this one. The house is once again alive and the stars, moonlight and sun don't even want to go near it. But all the bad weather seems to linger here. And I loved the line that said all the pleasant human sounds leaped in the gap a moment, and went upon their way. And the use of the shadows on the wall like shadows from a great magic lantern added to the gloom of the house. It's really brilliant. He used the shadows on the wall in Dombey and Son as well, if I remember correctly.
I also got the feeling that he is foreshadowing a visitor with the lines about the sick-room fire being a beacon summoning someone, a watchlight.
Which of the vast multitude of travelers, under the sun and the stars, climbing the dusty hills and toiling along the weary plains, journeying by land and journeying by sea, coming and going so strangely, to meet and to act and react on one another;...
That's a great quote Lori. As I'm reading it again, its reminding me of the end of Chapter Two "coming and going so strangely, to meet and to act and react on one another, move all we restless travelers through the pilgrimage of life". I'm sure its important because Dickens is repeating it again. Could it be alluding to Rigaud/Langier who has yet to reappear?Janelle, I laughed at the apron over Affrey's head too! And thank you Jean for reminding me about Peggotty's buttons popping off, that was such a great moment!
Fiona, great questions about the noises. My first thought was the same as Lori's, that it must be the Flintwinch doppleganger. I think the Chapter on the whole raises more questions than it answers, and that made it a bit confusing for me.
When Dickens said that Affrey "glided away into the air, as though she were off upon a witch-excursion" and also "descended on it from the witch-region of sleep" that confused me. Why is he making Affrey seem like a witch? I tend to think of Affrey as a victim of bullying done by Flintwinch and Mrs. Clennam, but this indicates a darker side to her. If I remember correctly, a couple chapters back she didn't much care for Little Dorrit. Which certainly calls her character into question. How could any decent person not like Little Dorrit??
I’m not sure he’s calling Affery a witch, I think he’s just adding to the disorientation she’s feeling throughout the chapter. There’s all the distortions thrown by the shadows from the lantern making everything seem unreal and haunted. So even her sleep isn’t natural, she’s off in some witchy realm, Affery has no clue what’s real or not anymore.I agree that Mrs Clennam more than likely doesn’t want to face the reality of Amy’s situation, perhaps doesn’t want to feel any more guilt.
And that foreshadowing line is a good one isn’t it? I’m assuming Rigaud too, but the way Dickens characters interact, who else from those early chapters is going to be bound up in the mystery?
I wonder if the witch-region of sleep is a reference to the night hag or night witch? It’s a term used for a hallucination related to sleep paralysis. We’ve all had that experience where we half wake in the middle of a dream and are still having it despite being awake. Flintwinch had earlier persuaded her she’d been dreaming when she was spying on him and his visitor.
Thanks Fiona re the earlier comment. These group reads and discussions are so good because we all do read differently and react differently to what we read. When we discuss, it’s like opening our brains and seeing even more. I agree with both speculations: the doppelgänger for the noises and Rigaud for the secret visitor to come.
I was surprised at Mrs. Clennam’s apparent sensitivity in cutting off Flintwich’s conversation about Amy’s home. It seemed that the whole conversation was difficult or painful for her. And it also appeared that she revealed a rare point of possible weakness to Flintwich. I wonder how he might make use of that. I’m also wondering what could happen now that Arthur has no helpful friend in the house any longer due to Affery’s fright.
Thank you Janelle and Fiona, for those insights. That helps a bunch. I think you are both spot on.Sue, I like your thoughts about Mrs. Clennam exposing her possible weakness. It seemed to me that Flintwinch had the upper hand in their conversation, and that surprised me too.
Now if I can remember Flintwinch’s name, I’ll be doing well! :-)
Link to Chapter 16 summary
Mr and Mrs Meagle by Sol Eytinge
Sorry, I can’t seem to load pictures any more, I’m doing it exactly the same as previously and tried a lot of different things but nothings working. I’ve spent too much time trying to get it to work, it’s very frustrating. Perhaps goodreads has changed something again.
Janelle, there IS a picture. Are they Mr and Mrs Meagle?In this chapter Arthur thinks that he is too old for Pet and he decides not to fall in love with her. I believe that all of us thought the same thing: so he is too old to fall in love with little Dorrit, too! (I call her little Dorrit: for years and years I have believed that "Dorrit" was her first name! :-D so now I cannot call her "Amy" )
I liked very much the description of the house of the Meagles. Dickens was able to give them pratical but also lovely surroundings.
Are the last of Arthur thoughts suicidal? I understood so, but I am not sure that I am right.
Lol, I’m so glad you can see it, Daniela! I’m getting an image error.Yes it’s Mr and Mrs Meagle.
Those final thoughts do seem suicidal, don’t they? But it could also be to just go with the flow through life and not to let any troubles or worries bother him.
I didn’t feel Arthur was having suicidal thoughts but he does seem to lack direction at the end of the chapter which is at odds with his hope that Daniel Doyce will take him on as his business partner. I think he’s just lonely and would like to be married. I hope he doesn’t fall in love with Pet/Minnie as there must be someone more suited for him.I’m curious to know how Miss Wade will become involved. She’s a mysterious character; an independent woman with a past, I’ll bet.
I had to laugh at the description of the Meagles’ house as ‘just large enough’ but I’m thinking that’s tongue in cheek as it’s clearly crammed full of the souvenirs from their travels so must be big enough for all of them and big enough for the family and their servants, and for guests. In England, the wealthier classes often pretentiously refer to substantial country houses as ‘cottages’ so perhaps that’s it. [IMO ;)]
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 03, 2021 09:18AM)
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Did they? I never knew that, and thought the American films with glamorous couples swanning down the wide spiral staircase of their huge "cottages" was so funny!! But I can believe it is an affectation begun here, yes.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Fiona wrote: "In England, the wealthier classes often pretentiously refer to substantial country houses as ‘cottages’ so perhaps that’s it...."Did they? I never knew that, and thought the America..."
For example, the 5 bedroom Frogmore Cottage, Windsor, Jean ;) If you watch some of the current house hunting programmes, you’ll see many examples of ‘cottages’ that quite simply aren’t.
I reread the ending of this chapter, after it was mentioned he was thinking about suicide. “ And he thought- who has not thought for a moment, sometimes- that it might be better to flow away monotonously, like the river, and to compound for its insensibility to happiness with its insensibility to pain.”I didn’t feel he was serious about suicide. I felt it was simply a thought he had, a thought many have at times on how much easier life would be to just float away. He has not lost all hope. After all, he may want to romance Pet, and he still needs to look out for Little Dorrit.
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I agree with Fiona and Antionette regarding Arthur's thoughts at the end of the chapter. We've seen Arthur be very introspective in other chapters so this seems to be the way Dickens has chosen to reveal his inner monologue. Daniel Doyce is going to be a wonderful character. I'm getting Walter vibes from Dombey and Son because he's just so kind-hearted - more so even than Arthur. He has a very strong work ethic and a completely different upbringing to Arthur but these two seem to be a good pair if they do go into a partnership. Arthur is searching for his future realizing that he's given up so many years for his family with no appreciation at all. So it's natural for him to feel inadequate right now. But he's wanting to make a change and start his own future. So I hope this new venture will get off to a good start and prove beneficial to both of them. I do love the fact that Daniel doesn't regard all of his obstacles with the government as reasons to stop forging ahead. This shows that he is determined and willing to do what he needs to do in order to provide something (an invention of his) that will benefit the people. I say way to go! Most people would say, well, I'm just giving up.
I did get the feeling that Arthur saw the other side of Pet at the dinner during the interaction with Tattycoram. It may not have lasted long but he seemed to view a less savory side at least briefly. Or maybe I saw it and wished that he would. I can’t imagine any kind of happy life for him with her.
Did anyone notice the line saying that 5 people were eating dinner so that wouldn't even include Tatty. How sad.
Yes she’s treated like a maid, isn’t she, not an adopted daughter. It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Miss Wade.
Sue, I got that feeling too when after dinner, while they are playing cards, Clennam reflects on how Pet is a "spoilt child" But he still finds her beautiful and endearing (too bad!).
Lori wrote: "Did anyone notice the line saying that 5 people were eating dinner so that wouldn't even include Tatty. How sad."Yes I saw that too!
I liked how this chapter gave us more insight into Mr. Meagles. There was a similarity to the way he treats Daniel Doyce and Tattycoram, which gets to the heart of Mr. Meagles character. Its this idea he has of being superior to both of them. He thinks he's saving both of them. And while that all comes from a kind place, its just not true. What struck me most was Arthur's speculating:
whether there might be in the breast of this honest, affectionate and cordial Mr. Meagles, any microscopic portion of the mustard-seed that had sprung up into the great tree of the Circumlocution Office
There is something about Mr. Meagles "superiority" that makes him similar to the Circumlocution Office. To Mr. Meagles, people belong in categories. He wants to put them in boxes. Orphans behave this way, Inventors behave this way. Its a practical, organized view - but that's not how humans really behave.
Bridget - I agree with you. I thought I was being unkind to Mr Meagles but he does feel superior and puts himself in the role of advisor to those he believes are less able than himself.Sue/Bridget - I was pleased that Tattycoram showed Pet in a different light too. Whether or not that changes Arthur’s intentions or not remains to be seen.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2021 01:58AM)
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About the image links ... the last 4 or so haven't shown up (for me anyway), and I think it's because of GR's new settings. For a while they would not let us post any links to other sites, and the only way to get round this is not to use html, but just link to the address bar (which you can't really do for images).
With images, there are a few sites they accept, but I can't find out which ones! It's just trial and error. (They obviously let you link to anything on Amazon but that's rarely any use.)
I've found you can get round it by uploading an image to an internet site you use (I put mine in a private Facebook folder!) and then linking from there. Don't ask me why that works though. I thought it worth mentioning in case you want to explore different places you get your images - (the "Victorian web" might work, or "Charles Perdue's Dickens page") or try my way.
I was going to message you privately, but it might be of use to others. If it gets sorted out, I'll delete this comment :)
Thanks.
Yes I’m getting image errors Jean. Although Daniela said she could see yesterdays. Often they work in preview and it loads, then when I go back to the page it’s gone.I wish goodreads would just leave things alone.
More often than not the pic I use is from the Victorian web. I’m not on Facebook(and don’t want to be!) so maybe I’ll just have to stop trying. Trial and error is too time consuming. It’s very frustrating.
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Sorry for the interruption.
Sorry - technically challenged when it comes to uploading images so I can’t help!So Arthur is well and truly smitten, despite his best efforts not to be! I think this is written very well. His rollercoaster emotions made me smile! It’s always good to have a love rival involved. Gowan is clearly a waste of space and not a good prospect for Pet/Minnie.
Why was Clarence Barnacle so rattled at seeing Arthur? There must surely be something to hide. He wasn’t heavy handed, as Clarence tells Gowan he was. He was just asking a question.
It’s interesting to read how uncomfortable Mr Meagles is in Barnacle’s company. It seems he’s a keen social climber but the opportunity to hobnob with someone further up the ladder than himself, or perceived to be so, discombobulated him.
I can see Henry Gowan and his dog. Arthur sits in the background. I can see the other images as well. I am using my cell. This is the chapter I liked more, so far. I liked the words Dickens uses to describe Arthur's thoughts and feelings. I thought and felt together with him.
The PC says "image error". So we can see Janelle's images using the app but not using the desktop version. It is really confusing.
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I just love Newfoundlands, so it made me smile to find one named "Lion" in this chapter. We used to have a Newfoundland named "Baloo" (from Disney's The Jungle Book). He was the sweetest dog ever.I agree with Fiona the writing was so good in this chapter, most of it made me smile and laugh. Like this one "but for that resolution...Clennam might have wished him in the crater of Mount Etna" LOL loved it!!
Janelle, so sorry about the technology difficulties (I can't see the pictures either). Please don't spend too much time fussing with it - unless that's something you enjoy. It would make me batty. You do a marvelous job starting us off each morning with your links and comments. And as Jean pointed out, there are still illustrations when we go to her original thread link.
I agree about this chapter. It seems like the true character of the various Meagles are coming to the surface and revealing less than honorable people in father and daughter. And Arthur sees what we see. I enjoyed the snarky writing in this chapter too, primarily about Gowan and Barnacle but not ignoring the Meagles.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)The Holly-Tree (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Thanks for this, Jean. I should have picked up on what was happening better since I just read DC. When I read Dickens now after starting with this group with A Christmas Carol, then Dombey and Son with the group read and now two buddy reads - this one and David Copperfield, I think I'm getting better at recognizing his styles and themes and the things that he seems to repeat - like the fallen women and the suicide. But I don't always see the obvious sign right in front of me. Like after reading the original thread just now, I realize that my comment about her wanting to be called Little Dorrit is actually demonstrating that she doesn't really have an identity other than that. Her name is Amy but no-one calls her by it, thus rendering her as unimportant. But she accepts this because it's her characteristic to please and help others.
Any reading strategies that anyone has, please feel free to fill me in so I can broaden my reading experience rather than just read with no purpose. Does that make any sense? Often times I wish I'd been an English major like my mother-in-law.