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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
In the civil war, Fiona? Must be a coincidence then or Dickens is psychic!Dickens refers to the Arabian Nights tales throughout his books as Jean says one of his favourite childhood books.
Yes, Jean, this was an interesting chapter. The weight of the atmosphere was so heavy. The air, the smells, the sounds, the non-stop bells pealing. Gray days and full dark nights with only an occasional candle seen in a window. And the candle Clennam sees marks the room of his hateful mother.The heavyweight imagery is nonstop until that glimpse of hope at the end with the mention of the girl glimpsed by Clennam—Little Dorrit, and the mention that the love of his youth is now a widow. Could she be available for him after his parents refused the union in the past?
I should look this up but instead, for the moment I will think in print, so to speak.
I was wondering as I read this chapter where this book comes in the timeline of Dickens long list of novels. While I am enjoying these chapters, I’m also questioning if the writing is as controlled as some other works I have read. At times the metaphors seem to go on longer and possibly heavier than in other novels. Is he learning his way with techniques. Or am I just more sensitive because I have been reading more modern lit lately?
Janelle wrote: "In the civil war, Fiona? Must be a coincidence then or Dickens is psychic!Dickens refers to the Arabian Nights tales throughout his books as Jean says one of his favourite childhood books."
Oops! Wrong book link. Should be Strange and Obscure Stories of the Revolutionary War, Janelle. The incident took place in 1765 so Dickens could have read about it.
Oh, how interesting, Fiona!Sue, I really liked the atmosphere and repetition of the imagery in this chapter but I can also see that it’s a bit over the top!
Little Dorrit was published from 1855-1857 so is one of his later novels. (Only 3 more completed after this one)
Link to Chapter 4 summary
Adding a picture so it’s easy to find the beginning of each chapter discussion
A short chapter setting up another mystery. What’s in the box?
A very short chapter, as you say, Janelle. What a horrible man Flintwinch is! Jeremiah, that is, as we’ve no idea who the other one is. I feel so sad for Affery. She has no life of her own.
Very curious chapter. Was it a dream or was is reality? I think reality and that Jeremiah was pretending she was dreaming to confuse Affery. So then that does lead me to believe there is another man looking similar to Flintwinch. And the box is a new mystery for sure.Dickens has certainly stirred up the curiosity pot! We have many loose ends at the end of this first installment but he has definitely answered no questions but created many for us readers.
What’s in the box?
Who was the sleeping man with the box?
Who is the mustached man from the quarantine?
What became of Rigaud and the smuggler?
Why is Little Dorrit in the Clennam’s house? What’s the connection?
Bionic Jean wrote: "No, there's one more chapter in this installment for December 1855, and from then on mostly in 4 chapter chunks too. The original publishing schedule is in comment 2 of the group read (and at tha..."
Thank you Jean for directing me there, that's a lovely list of installments.
Lori wrote: "Very curious chapter. Was it a dream or was is reality? I think reality and that Jeremiah was pretending she was dreaming to confuse Affery. So then that does lead me to believe there is another ma..."I think it was reality too, Lori. Which makes Flintwinch's strangling of bullying of Affrey so awful. I really don't like that man, and now there might be two of him? That's two too many in my opinion.
You are so right with all the questions raised in these chapters. I would have gone crazy waiting for the next installment.
Sue, I looked up the placement of Little Dorrit in the timeline (though you've probably already looked it up yourself :-) It falls between Bleak House (1853) and A Tale of Two Cities (1859).Your thoughts about the change in writing are interesting. I notice a difference as well, but it struck me as more playful on Dickens part. The grimness of the Clennam house chapter though did surprise me. It was really dark. I think when I got to the line about the four poster bed with pillars so sharp they could impale someone, I actually said aloud "Oh, my gosh". I haven't had that reaction in a Dickens novel since ****this is a serious Dombey and Son spoiler so do not open it if you haven't read that book**** (view spoiler) So yeah, maybe a little bit over the top with darkness, but its so fun to read, and maybe its a sign of his growing maturity as a writer that he can sustain these metaphors for so long.
One more thought about his writing. I mentioned before I feel like his theatrical sensibilities are showing up in his writing. Both the jail scene and the quarantine scenes felt like they could have been on stage. I wonder if that seeps into his writing because he longed so much to be part of the theater.
It was unusual as well for not one of the chapters being a humorous interlude. The whole 4 chapters were pretty dark and a bit gothic.And definitely theatrical!
Nice summing up of the mysteries so far, Lori .
Janelle, thanks for that information. I still hadn’t looked it up. It does seem that Dickens wants to stress as much darkness as possible doesn’t it. And this “dream” chapter furthers that, doesn’t it. By the end of the chapter, I didn’t feel that Affrey had had a dream at all. Her husband told her it was a dream while he was throttling her and that’s what her fear caused her to believe.
I also wonder now if her husband has an evil twin, perhaps more evil than he appears to be! And the box….could he be stealing from Mrs. Clennam? My brain is full of questions now.
Bridget and Janelle, I love your thoughts about the theatricality of this book. It does feel so true. It’s like stage direction for both settings and actions.
Chapter 5 Another dark chapter. Mrs Clennam is such a bleak character and so reminiscent, for me, of the Murdstones in David Copperfield. This description sums her up: Her severe face had no thread of relaxation in it, by which any explorer could have been guided to the gloomy labyrinth of her thoughts. Even when in a rage, she is controlled.What hold does Flintwinch have over the family? I don’t think Arthur knows anything, except that he acted as a go between for the Clennams when their relationship failed. It came as a surprise to me that he’s a partner in the business as I thought he was a manservant. Perhaps he is both which is even stranger.
Arthur is going to direct his attention towards Little Dorrit. I’m looking forward to finding out more about her.
I think in an earlier chapter Flintwinch was described as both a clerk and a servant, so I assume he has been working in the business already and Mrs Clennam must trust him. The end of the chapter is interesting where Arthur wonders if Little Dorrit has anything to do with the mystery of his father (which I’m not really clear on…does Arthur suspect he was stealing or something?)
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Good idea about a pic - and nice that you choose a different one from the group read. The one you've chosen was also in by Phiz (Hablot Knight Browne), in the original edition, and called "The Room with the Portrait".
There's also my "a little more" posts, everyone, which follow eg. for today's chapter it goes into the symbolism of the painting in the other illustration, which tells us quite a bit about how Mrs. Clennam thinks, and the atmosphere which Arthur was brought up in. It's also a good base to understand the psychology of some of the characters, and why they behave as they do.
It's always worth checking these out, and some of the discussion.
Nice observations all - Janelle - if you'd like to make sure your intro pic comes at the beginning of the day's read, how about posting it last thing the day before? It's what I have to do for the polls sometimes - and in Australia it's probably tricky - as I think you said. Just an idea though, in case it stops you stressing about getting in first :)
I’m still trying to work out the best time Jean :)) Fiona beat me today(I should’ve posted before dinner! It’s 8pm now)
Last thing the day before would be in the middle of Europe and American commenters I think.
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I'm sure after a few days you'll sort out what's best to fit with your schedule :)
Janelle / Jean - would it help if we all agreed not to post anything until Janelle has posted the chapter link?
That’s a good idea, Fiona. If you’re ready to post and I haven’t put the link up yet, feel free to tell me to hurry up!
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I don't necessarily expect the same formality to apply to a buddy read, but I do think it would help in this case yes, as it is being structured in the same way. We found with an earlier buddy read similarly, that it was best if someone (you) commented first. It might help Janelle, and also several people who I think want to read the summary and commentaries each day before commenting.
Thanks.
It should be Janelle who decides for this first half though.
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Great solution! Janelle I really like your idea about the illustrations. They do anchor where were are in the book, and also they are interesting to talk about as well.
The illustration today shows how dark and dingy the house is, and I love how the light from the window is shining only on the desk. As if they light is struggling to enter the room at all.
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Yes! And how about Phiz's other illustration for this chapter, Bridget? Does that tell you anything about Mrs. Clennam and her treatment of Arthur as a child?
My copy of the book is supposed to be illustrated but so far has only had one. So it’s nice to see them here.This was another very dark chapter. I can’t imagine Arthur wanting to work with his mother. Perhaps the 20 years working with his father “under” her obvious control was enough and he wasn’t going to make his father’s mistake. She seems to be a hateful and hate-filled woman. I am just a bit curious how she became that way, though she obviously was that woman even young when Arthur was a child.
Now we’re getting to Little Dorrit. I found myself having fantasies of romance for the young woman with Arthur. I want to save her and I don’t even know her yet. But anyone in Mrs. Clennam’s employ, except Flintwich, needs saving.
Jean, now that I've read your comments in the original thread about the painting within a painting, I have lots more insight into Mrs. Clennam's psyche. Thank you so much for posting that, its just marvelous. I never would have known about the John Martin painting Phiz is recreating if you hadn't mentioned it.That painting is a perfect pairing for what Dickens' is writing about Mrs. Clennam's views of religion. How she tallies the good and bad deeds and takes what she is owed. I'm thinking too of that wonderful paragraph about her need for her "mystical religion" that ends with this was the impious tower of stone she built up to scale Heaven. Poor Arthur's childhood was weighted down by that stone tower.
The Martin painting also illustrates a battle between dark and light as Joshua is trying to get the moon and sun to stand still so he can keep fighting the Canaanites. I feel like that same battle between dark and light takes place in the Clennam house (darkness is winning) and Mrs. Clennam is the one in charge of that battle. She is all about control. That's why she gets so passionate when Arthur says he's leaving the business. She is no longer controlling him.
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Sue - there is an illustration for every single chapter posted in the original thread, actually in that linked post - and sometimes two or three :) You don't even need to scroll! They are mostly from the first editions in either England or the USA (eg. as I said Phiz completed two for today's) or one of the TV dramatisations. There are two excellent series of Little Dorrit.
There are quite a few for Janelle to choose from for the header here, that I didn't include, too. That will be nice :)
Arthur’s mother made me think of Scrooge. Always working and worshiping money. A cold and cruel woman. I wonder if we will learn what made her this way, or has she just always been this way.
That’s interesting Antoinette. We learned how Scrooge became the hard man he was. Somehow Mrs Clennam almost seems worse but maybe there is something in her life that caused this behavior.
Bridget, I love your analysis of Mrs Clennam!Jean’s posts are always worth the click on the link. Both her summaries and her next comment or two are also interesting and informative.
If anyone was wondering why Mrs Clennam is always eating oysters, a note in my Penguin copy says that oysters were recommended by Mrs Beeton and others as a cheap and easily digestible source of good nourishment, suitable for invalids.
Janelle, your comment about Mrs. Beeton reminds me there is so much about Victorian England to learn about via Dickens.
Do we know what business Clennam had in China? I am guessing importing or something....
Yes Rod, I assumed it was some sort of import business.Interestingly I was just googling about it and because of the timeframe,(Arthur returns to England in 1827) it’s quite probable that what the Clennam’s were involved in was the opium trade.
Goodreads in its wisdom won’t let me link to the page where I found the reference.
A bit of a rambling chapter that jumps around a bit in time, with no names given but I assume the father of the Marshalsea is little Dorrit’s father and the tiny baby born in the prison is Little Dorrit herself.
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Blink and you'd miss it, Rod, but here it is:
“All our consignments have long been made to Rovinghams’ the commission-merchants”
Arthur has been working in China for 20 years, and we know it is to do with importing. They may also be involved with money-lending, but I can't put my finger on the reference. His mother, Mrs. Clennam, oversees the English end.
China was the origin of the Silk Road, an ancient trade route from East to East. England imported a lot of cloth and porcelain from China so the trade may be in these. Or perhaps tea ... opium would fit the time period yes, although it doesn't fit Mrs Clennam's fire and brimstone character! On the other hand it is left very vague, and she did react violently to Arthur’s question about her business ruining someone ...
I like ch 6 as it's all back story, and answers lots of questions.
Janelle, this chapter does go back in time to give us some background info even without letting us know who we are reading about. I assume Dickens wanted his readers to guess and use some previous chapters to help in making our deductions. What a horrible, squalid place the Marshalsea was. After reading Jean’s extra info on the prison, I am left wondering how anyone who lived there, especially on the common side, ever came out alive. Our gentleman prisoner, the Father of Marshalsea, lives on the master side. It seems as though he lived there for at least 16 years, maybe 20 (am I reading this correctly?) and has outlived all those he knew from the start. His title was at first a bit of a joke but as the years went on became a respectful title. But still, living all those years with small children and losing a wife while in prison. How awful!
We know present Little Dorrit works for Mrs. Clennam so it will be interesting to see what the connection is between these families. Could the Dorrit’s be a part of the mystery Arthur asked his mother about? Looking forward to tomorrow’s chapter.
I’m speculating the same sort of connection, Lori. The fact that his “wrongs” are so complex that no one can understand them or figure out a way for “Father” to ever get out of Marshalsea seems to hint at complicated business affairs. Overseas business certainly would fit the bill.And I wonder what knowledge Little Dorrit has of her family’s past, if any. Her father seemed so totally unaware maybe the family was in the dark about whatever happened.
The conditions at Marshalsea were actually even worse than what I had expected.
Well we are all in agreement, because I am speculating all the same things. Did anyone catch the hint of smugglers also been held as prisoners at the Marshalsea "a close and confined prison for debtors, it contained within it a much closer and confined jail for smugglers" Wasn't John Baptist in jail for smuggling? I wonder if there will be a connection here?
Lori, you are right Mr. Dorrit was there 20 years: he was the Father of the place...if more than twenty years of residence gave him a claim to the title
Debtors prison is such a nasty idea, they don’t get jailed for not paying their debt and then complete a sentence, they are there until they pay the debt or the person they owe the money to waives it. Which leads to, how do you pay it if you’re confined in prison?I caught the smugglers reference, Bridget. I wondered if it referred to smuggling things in and out of the jail?
I’m really enjoying this so far.
Bridget, yes I do remember reading the part about smugglers at Marshalsea so you are definitely on to something there. Jean Baptist was in jail for smuggling so a connection seems likely. He could possibly have been to China and met Arthur or his father at some point?
Indeed, the mention of smuggling set my antennae quivering too. So many possibilities for illicit activities.
Poor Amy growing up inside the prison. She is doted on by the turnkey and all other prisoners feel for her immediately when she says she was born there. As for the Dorrit’s, She’s really the only adult in the family, organising everything for her sister and brother.
Its been a busy couple days for me, so I just finished reading Chapter 7. Its all the back story of Little Dorrit. She seems like a little "Doll" for all the people locked in the prison. But then she grows up to have so much courage and good sense. I liked when she told the milliner woman "I don't think I am weak, m'am". She is small but she is certainly mighty. I'm glad Dickens is finally using her name. Took him a long time to get to that.
He’s made her easy to overlook, which to me means that people will underestimate her. We can see her strong character already.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)The Holly-Tree (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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The notes in my Penguin edition say the Calendar story is a reference to a story within Th..."
That’s interesting because I googled and found a story about an incident in the USA as related in Strange and Obscure Stories of the Civil War. If you google ‘callender’s story blackened faces’, you’ll find the excerpt.