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Gardens of the Moon (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #1)
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SERIES—List & Discussions > Malazan Book of the Fallen--2/22--Gardens of the Moon: Books 3 & 4

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message 1: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (last edited Feb 01, 2015 10:02PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
SPOILERS only through Book 3 The Mission and Book 4 Assassins.


Maggie K | 298 comments There are a lot of things going on here...we see a number of different 'peoples', Jakartans, Imaas, Moranth, Rhivi, Barghast... Are they other races? or like Tool, other species?

and so many things being said that are lies, or half-truths (just from the little that we do know) Makes me wonder what else are lies!

and Toc's father being missing, and Lorn talking about they (the old guardfrom Emperor Kellanved) need to disappear...

and some of the writing! I loved the scene where Tayschrenn tells Lorn that the little girl she was no longer exists...and Toc watches Lorn's reaction and thinks that he just witnessed an execution...very sad. Erikson has a way with manipulating emotion!


message 3: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
Yes, the pace is definitely picking up. We are starting to see some recurring themes--the meaning of loyalty and betrayal, the images of chains, the varying forms of death, undeath, and rebirth, and, of course, characters who are not what they seem. You can't take anything or anyone at face value.


message 4: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
A couple other random thoughts:

I'm wondering if Hairlock was already somewhat insane or did the soul transfer from his severely-injured body into the wooden puppet push him over the edge? What do you think?

Is Tayschrenn loyal to anyone other than himself? Is he really serving the Empress?

Do the T'Lan Imass have a treaty or pact with the Empire? It seems so, but then I wonder if it was with the Emperor Kellanved or is it with Empress Laseen, or is it from a far older time and exists regardless of who is running the Empire?


Antonis (antonakis) | 43 comments I would guess that hairlock was probably already on the way to madness. He appeared chaotic enough even before his physical death.
As for the imass, I feel as if everyone and their mother have their own agenda. This became more than a strong suspicion just a few minutes ago when I turned the first page of book 5 and noticed the description of the different dates at the beginning.
Also a question: at the end of book 4 the wizard alchemist mentions two heads from Pale wizards. I don't remember about this, can anybody comment on this??


message 6: by Teanka (last edited Feb 15, 2015 11:15AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Teanka Antonis wrote: "Also a question: at the end of book 4 the wizard alchemist mentions two heads from Pale wizards. I don't remember about this, can anybody comment on this?? "

Anomander Rake during his talk with Baruk in book 2 demanded to be given the two remaining Pale wizards who took shelter in Darujistan(the rest of them he had hunted down already), either alive or dead. He'd have killed them with Dragnipur, his sword, so Baruk, being merciful, promised to give him their heads.

According to Anomander, the Pale wizards fled from the battle abandoning The Moon's Spawn and Pale to its fate for which hey deserved to die.


Maggie K | 298 comments I think Tay serves the EMPIRE, and not whoever is in charge. But then that makes it where he is making decisions....


message 8: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
Teanka wrote: "Anomander Rake during his talk with Baruk in book 2 demanded to be given the two remaining Pale wizards who took shelter in Darujistan(the rest of them he had hunted down already), either alive or dead. He'd have killed them with Dragnipur, his sword, so Baruk, being merciful, promised to give him their heads."

I remembered that but I don't recall Baruk finding/beheading those 2 wizards. Were they characters we had met? Or some unnamed wizards that we didn't encounter during the battale at Pale?


Teanka I don't think that we've met the Pale wizards. But then, in my rereading I'm only finishing the 3 book now so I'm not 100 percent sure.


Maggie K | 298 comments No we never met them....


message 11: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
I'm relieved to know that the murdered wizards were not characters we had met. I am not the most meticulous reader and thought maybe I had missed who was beheaded. I even thought maybe Baruk had somehow tried to trick Rake (which would probably be very foolish) since all the mages we "knew" were still alive in one manner or another.


Maggie K | 298 comments Noooo.....in fact, iirc, the mages basically offered themselves up for beheading rather than face DRAGNIPUR


Helen Just finished, really has picked up. All my favourites are alive, or seeming to be alive!

Tayschrenn seems to be serving the empire, my impression was that as he isn't a tactician so he wasn't doing it well. However, he didn't seem to get on with his fellow wizards so that leads to further intrigue.

We're told that the claw make contact with the local assassins and that is why our guys, Kalam and Quick, are attacked as they are about to meet the locals. Yet, they aren't claw so were they doing this part as part of their instructions or as their own plan. More intrigue.

Sorry seemed to get pulled in directions briefly. I'm be vexed if she kills Crokus.


message 14: by Ken (new) - rated it 3 stars

Ken (ogi8745) | 1348 comments I am really enjoying this discussion.
I have already read the first six books and these conversations are reminding about stuff.


Antonis (antonakis) | 43 comments Thanks for the explanation about the two Pale wizards. For some reason the replies in this thread didn't show up in my notifications which is strange and I read them just now. I'm going to check the rest of the discussions for things I might have missed.


Maggie K | 298 comments the big question re the Pale battle is who did kill the Malazan mages??? There clearly was some kind of double cross in there...so who was the target? Again there were some old hands who may have been loyal to the old emperor, but Nightchill seems pretty mysterious too....odd


message 17: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
It's true that in the Pale battle, there appeared to be a double-cross and I think Tayschrenn attacked them.


Helen Me too, Kathi.


Justine (justinescholefield) | 563 comments I agree with that also. I was wondering, though, if he is working for someone or just for himself? Hard to know at this point.


Maggie K | 298 comments right-did Laseen order it? or did he just do it? Did he think they weren't loyal? Isnt the scarcity of mages a bigger problem?

Same with the Bridgeburners...that appeared to be a purposeful sabotage...but these were elite fighters. They needed them! Are Laseens action sensible? It seems self defeating


Justine (justinescholefield) | 563 comments Well she wants to get rid of the Bridgeburners because they are old guard from the Emperor. I think she underestimates the sway they have within the military at large. But that is why she wants to get rid of them in the line of duty too..so it doesn't look like she is actively cleaning house.

As for Tayschrenn, yes, I don't know...


message 22: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
Justine wrote: "Well she wants to get rid of the Bridgeburners because they are old guard from the Emperor. I think she underestimates the sway they have within the military at large. But that is why she wants to ..."

I agree with you, Justine, about the Bridgeburners.

As for the mages at Pale, I'm not sure. On the one hand, Laseen only wants mages who are totally under her control. That's why, years ago, when Tattersail was young, one of her first actions as a mage in the Empire's army was to wipe out the "hedge witches/wizards" in the city whose name I've forgotten, but it was where Lorn's family was and where the Prologue takes place. So I can see Laseen ordering Tayschrenn to do that. At the same time, Tayschrenn is ambitious and I can see him taking advantage of the opportunity to eliminate some potential rivals.

Of course, I think he was targeting the mages in his own cadre. The mages of Pale, on the other hand, were the "enemy" mages, the resistance. And 2 of them who escaped the Empire's attack are the 2 that were beheaded by Baruk as part of his arrangement with Rake.


Maggie K | 298 comments Pale was the town that the malazan wizards were fighting, they had a town wizard cabal and Rake was helping them, hoping to stop the Malazan expansion.
However, the wizards basically betrayed Rake by deserting Pale and running to Darujhistan out of I suppose Fear. So Rake was hunting them down for their betrayal of both him and the town.


Justine (justinescholefield) | 563 comments I have to say that I am enjoying this book a lot more than I did the first time I read it a few years ago. I'll have to revise my original rating up from 3 stars to 4.


Helen I felt it funny that the adjunct who had magical-type elements was stamping out other magic. There's something we don't know about, I suspect...


Justine (justinescholefield) | 563 comments Funny like suspicious you mean? I just assumed that she was getting rid of any possible magic users that might work against the Empire's interests. What other theory do you have?


Helen I don't really have a theory. I couldn't decide if she was ridding the world of magic or just magic not under her control.


Xan  Shadowflutter (shadowflutter) | 24 comments Kathi wrote: "A couple other random thoughts:

I'm wondering if Hairlock was already somewhat insane or did the soul transfer from his severely-injured body into the wooden puppet push him over the edge? What do..."


I don't think it is the soul transfer, but his playing with the warrens, especially the warren of Chaos, that's driving him mad. He was always odd though.


message 29: by Tani (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tani | 132 comments Finally got through these two books, and the story is definitely picking up for me. I feel like I have a much clearer idea of the characters and situations now. I'm still kind of thrown by how often the story switches between characters, but I'm getting used to it.

The Bridgeburners are really growing on me, especially Quick Ben and Kalam. I am kind of excited to see how things will play out, especially with Anomander Rake in the city and carrying out his plots. It does seem like the odds are against the Bridgeburners, but I think they're resilient enough to get through. (At least, I hope so!)

I'm also dying to see Tattersail again! I'm terribly curious about how everything will have affected her, and what role she's going to get to play in the story in the future.

I'm definitely starting to get excited to see where the story is going. :)


Xan  Shadowflutter (shadowflutter) | 24 comments Dani, I too am liking Quick Ben and Kalam. When thinking of Hairlock, I realize how different he is from Quick Ben. Where Hairlock is wild and reckless, Quick Ben is disciplined and careful. He plans his magic before using it. Also he and Kalam have gained a lot of wisdom over the years. I think Quick Ben is a powerful mage, not just because of his abilities, but also because of these qualities. I wonder if he and Tayschrenn will face off.

I too can't wait for Tattersail's return. She is one of my favorite characters.

I have a question about Anomander Rake. He is referred to as the son of darkness. Is he evil? What are his motives? Anyone have a guess?


Maggie K | 298 comments He is not evil at all. He feels responsibleto do things. Other than that, you will have to RAFO


message 32: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathi | 3217 comments Mod
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I have a question about Anomander Rake. He is referred to as the son of darkness. Is he evil? What are his motives? Anyone have a guess?"
I think there are Dark and Light but they are not necessarily Evil and Good. And then there is Shadow--evil, good, neither, both, or something else entirely?


message 33: by Tani (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tani | 132 comments I think that one of the cool things about this book so far is that everyone has very strong beliefs. There's not a lot of clear-cut good or evil, it's just everyone seeking their own goals. Anomander Rake is like that. He does good things, and he does terrible things, and he's just not easy to classify. I think we're going to spend a lot of time just siding with or against people because we like them or agree with their morals, rather than having the author try to convince us one way or the other.

I would really like to know more of Rake's motivations, though! I get that he's opposing the Malazan Empire, but what caused him to do so in such a fervent manner? And does the cause justify his use of Dragnipur? I'm very unsure of that, as I just got to learn a little more about that sword, and did not like what I saw. If it weren't for that, I would tentatively like Rake, but Dragnipur makes me very uncertain of what I think of him...


message 34: by John (new) - rated it 4 stars

John | 15 comments Going back to Laseen's motivation, although we do see more in later books, we're given a pretty clear clue right in the prologue, in the scene between her and Whiskeyjack (though he isn't named).

The commander said, "It's your mess, Surly. Seems I'll have to clean it up.
Ganoes was shocked at the absence of fear--the near-contempt in the soldier's voice. [...]
"[...]You must be feeling confident in the Emperor's absence. He's not the only one who remembers you as nothing more than a serving-wench down in the Old Quarter. I take it the gratitude's washed off long since."

And then later, when she's pointing out the hedge witches' defiance of the new laws, Whiskeyjack responds:

"Your laws, Surly. They won't work, and when the Emperor returns he'll quash your prohibition of sorcery, you can be certain of that."
The woman smiled coldly. "You'll be pleased to know that the tower has signaled the approach of the transports for your new recruits. We'll not miss you or your restless, seditious soldiers, Commander."

So yeah. The suggestion is pretty strong that this is personal. Sure, she sees these troops--particularly the Bridgeburners--as "seditious," but the strong implication is that the new Empress wants to get rid of everyone who knew her back when she was nobody. Particularly since those are the people who look on her with contempt, who question her decisions, who think they know better than her... in short, the people most likely to BE seditious. And so it circles around.


message 35: by John (new) - rated it 4 stars

John | 15 comments Oh, and I was going to say, I suspect that the cold smile she offers is as much in reply to his suggestion that the Emperor will put her in her place as it is to the fact that Whiskeyjack and his soldiers will be leaving. She knows something he doesn't....


Maggie K | 298 comments or thinks she does...


message 37: by John (new) - rated it 4 stars

John | 15 comments Well, yeah. Or she knows something he doesn't, even though what she knows isn't all there is to know about what she thinks she knows. :)


Xan  Shadowflutter (shadowflutter) | 24 comments There's what you know, what you know you don't know, and what you don't know you don't know. :-)


Maggie K | 298 comments Lmao


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