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The Hobbit: Battle of Five Armies

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message 1: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) Let's talk about it


message 2: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Help us get started, Lizzy. Maybe you could give us a list of categories or questions to prime the well. So many directions we could go; how about acting as a "directional compassion" for us! You have a good perspective on both author (Tolkien) and producer (P.J.), and you know the storyline well, so maybe your ability to see this whole picture could initialize our opinions! We await your assistance. :-)


message 3: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments "compass" not compassion. Spell check error!


message 4: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) Okay, well. I know my opinion of the movie as a whole is pretty unpopular (is pretty negative). But I can agree with most that the actors and actresses did a really good job. I just wish they had a better script to work with. All of them are very talented people and I've seen almost all of them in other movies (except for Evangeline Lilly and Luke Evans). So no complaints there. I do think you could tell with Lilly and Evans that they are "newer" actors. I ended up not liking Lilly very much, mostly because of how weak the script was for her character. Also I thought a lot of Bard's script and personality were to similar to Legolas and Will from the pirates of the Caribbean. But I still look forward to seeing what Evans does in the future.


message 5: by Essilie (new)

Essilie | 39 comments I have to admit, I was biased against Tauriel from the very beginning. She just didn't seem to fit to me.


message 6: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) I personally like Tauriel although I haven't seen The Battle Of Five Armies yet (Hoping to soon!), I thought it was nice to have a strong female character in the movies.


message 7: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments I am still mentally studying Tauriel and her part in the movie. I am divided in that, as a character and as an actress, I thought she was a real complement to the movie, as an action film but not as a "retelling of The Hobbit." To me, she represents a major character that a producer could have used in one of their action films needing someone like a Tauriel, but not in The Hobbit. I do not rule her out as a possible character that would come into play if the Silmarillion were ever brought to the cinematic screen, for Tolkien has many strong and courageous Elve women and Mankind women throughout his works.

Concerning the romance flickers between her and Kili, this may have attracted those who like romance, at what ever cost, but if was flatly out of place in The Hobbit. If anything, it undermined Tauriel's character, not strengthened it. Yes, Kili was a likeable dwarfs, but to have a top level Silvan captain, around 600 years old, who already has the attention of the King's son, fall prey to her romantic instincts so easily and in such a short time, well, not sure that romance was meant for the book, or the movie.

Aragorn not only had to wait some 60+ years for the hand of Arwen, but had to gain kingship over the kingdoms of both Arnor and Gondor, before Elrond would give permission for Estelle (Aragorn) to marry his daughter. Kili???

Tolkien allows for the intermarrying of Elves and Mankind only three times in the history of all of Arda. But nowhere do we read where the dwarves ever even wanted to marry with Elves. Indeed, most of the time they hated each other.

As you can see, I really liked the character of Tauriel, and her strong will, and her recognition of her willingness to stand for what was right. But even with those qualities, she should not have been in the movie. She was more of a distraction from the real storyline, and seemingly served little more purpose than to represent a strong female role --- not a good reason to rewrite a great book.

P.S. If I were a movie producer, I would find a movie needing a strong and sensitive female character, and have Evangeline play it! But, not as Tauriel. :-)


message 8: by Rebecca L (last edited Feb 05, 2015 11:49AM) (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) I saw the part when Kili dies in The Battle Of Five Armies on youtube, so sad, I wish that he didn't have to be killed off, but alas at least PJ is following the book. Sigh. I for one really thought that Tauriel was going to die although i'm glad she didn't


message 9: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments I am not sure of the reasoning behind Tolkien's decision to have both Kili and Fili killed, along with Thorin, but Dane (cousin of Thornin's) became the King Under the Mountain. Would either of the two brothers have been in line to the kingship, had one of them lived? I am not sure how the lineage issue goes. Just wondering.

I think I will check Thorin's lineage to see if there were anymore relatives of his still alive. There certainly were no other sons, to be sure, as they would have been next in line to be king!


message 10: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) I believe that Fili was next inline. But I'd be interested in knowing what you find while looking at Thorin's lineage.


message 11: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Lizzy, you seem to be at least half right! :-) You see, the lineage in one of the Appendices shows Fili to be the older, and would have succeeded Thorin on the throne, had Fili lived. BUT, I read in The Hobbit where Fili was the younger!

One explannation I read was, Tolkien discovered this problem in one of his manuscripts before publication, and decided to follow up with both brothers being killed protecting their Uncle. Plus, they seemed too young (after all, they were the youngest of the 13, thus got picked often due to their good eye sight) to become the next King, as many major decisions would have to have been made, perhaps beyond their yesrs of experience.

Dane would have been next in line, and he was a tried and true Dwarve, with many years of leadership under his belt!Some think Tolkien found this to be the best solution to the potential lineage problems.

But, basically you were correct, Lizzy. Kudos!


message 12: by Allison (new)

Allison Lady Galadriel (TheLadyGaladriel) | 11 comments it was very good but i thought there was to much slow motion on the fight between the white orc and thorin


message 13: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Your observation is correct but I believe the biggest reason for that had much to do with the necessity of lengthening out that last movie. As previously discussed somewhat, making three movies from a relatively small book had to have had much to do with profits rather than storyline.

Maybe they should have learned from the battle between Aragorn and the chief Urik on Amon Hen, the Urik that shot Boromir.

They made Thorin's conflict with Azog more of a grudge match, I think. Maybe they should have let Beorn take him out! :-D


message 14: by Allison (new)

Allison Lady Galadriel (TheLadyGaladriel) | 11 comments quiet quiet agreed


message 15: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Just watched The Battle of Five Armies! So awesome! The best of all so far! More later:)


message 16: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Becky, glad you liked it. Definitely plenty of action and suspense!! What parts do you think were the best? Did anything particularly surprise you in how it ended? Let us know how many stars you would give it, and why. :-)


message 17: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Hmm, I think I liked the ending the best for it was somewhat like LOTR in that when the credits appeared I was sitting there feeling really epic and moved you know? I was surprised a little though for I was expecting it to show Thorin's funeral, maybe in the extended edition they will. I also really liked the scene with the dragon, that was really cool and I love how Bard and his son slayed him, so cool. I would probably give it four stars for it was really exciting and action packed but it also had a lot of humor and fun moments. Everyone's performance's were beautiful, by far the best so far, and I really enjoyed that Bilbo got to play a bigger part, we need more of Bilbo! Also I really liked seeing more of Thranduil and Bard the Bowman, two really cool characters. Such a wonderful movie! So glad I finally got to see it:))


message 18: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Becky, there were a lot of really cool characters in these movies. Bard was one of my favorite in the book, and he represented fairly well in the movie.

Legolas is also one of my favorites, carried over from LOTR.

Gandalf, and his character, is as professional as they come!! Outstanding actor.

I thought the scene of Bard and son taking out Smaug was pretty well done, considering all.

As I said before, I didn't like P.J. adding a major character to the movie, but setting that aside, I really liked Tauriel's character! Strictly from an acting perspective, she being a "lesser Elve" presented that side pretty well. The Silvan Elves are "less wise and more dangerous" (Tolkien's words) so she needed to present that side that Legolas, who was one of the High Elves, did not portray. Dangerous, yes, but very wise. If I were the producer of the Silmarillion, she would definitely have a place in the script.

Little was written about Thorin's burial, except that the Arkenstone was buried with him. No mention of Fili or Kili's burial, but we can assume they were buried in rock chambers, as was the Dwarve custom.

In The Two Towers, the Hourns seemed to clean up the bodies of all the dead orcs at Helm's Deep. But what about all those killed in the Battle of Five Armies? What a job! (Probably burned them all.)

:-)


message 19: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) I have always liked Legolas as well and thought that his character was better portrayed in the Hobbits than in LOTR in that he showed more emotions in H.

Gandalf is wonderful, so wise and steady, yes a very good actor!

I love Tauriel! Oh I agree if PJ makes The Silmarillion she should be in it!

Yes I remember that from the book I just thought they should have done that in the movie but as I said perhaps in the extended edition.

Oh I know so many movies do that! Thousands of people/creatures being slain and they never show how they clean them up or who does it! I defiantly wouldn't want to:( Many times in great battles in history the slain were either burned or buried in huge trenches dug by their comrades. What a sad job.


message 20: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Allison wrote: "it was very good but i thought there was to much slow motion on the fight between the white orc and thorin"

Yes it was a little drawn out but still good, I couldn't believe how dumb Thorin was following the orc along when everyone knew he wasn't dead! He should have been more cautious! Poor Thorin, he was kind of mean in the first two Hobbits and the beginning of Battle of Five Armies but by the end he did turn around, to bad he had to die!


message 21: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Does anybody know why the third Hobbit is called The Battle of Five Armies? It's been quiet a while since I read the book and I can't remember if their were five armies in the battle, in the movie I only counted four if you count the humans and I'm wondering where the fifth army was.


message 22: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) In the book the fifth army is the giant Eagles.


message 23: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) Thinking back to the film, they didn't even include that did they?
They made it seem like it was humans, elves and dwarves against two different Orc armies.


message 24: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Concerning Thorin's near-insanity toward the treasures, something to keep in kind.

Aule, one of the Ainor (angels), who was the Creator of the Dwarve Fathers, brought the Dwarves into existence without permission from Ilùvitar (God), but was forgiven and allowed the Dwarves to exist. But they had been made from the earth, rock hard in many ways. One major flaw in their nature was their love/lust for gold! It seemed to dominate them, to the degree that it was more of a sickness.

In The Hobbit, it seemed as though only Thorin was affected, but it was part of every Dwarve's nature. Still, most of the time common sense and one's honor "usually" prevailed, but Tolkien's writings did show it was not always the case. I think P.J. showed Thorin's lust for gold to be very apparent.

Regardless, I really appreciated Tolkien (in the book) giving Dáin Ironfoot an honorable and respectable nature in how he shared the enormous wealth in settling all accounts; for the Dragon Hoard was not all the Dwarves but came from other places as well, like Laketown, the city of Dale, and who-knows where else Smaug may have plundered it all. And, the entire area was in need of help. (The Elves would take quite a while repopulating all the lost lives as well. They always seemed to multiply very slowly.)

Some might find this fascinating. When Gimli asked Galadriel for a single strand of her golden hair, in her answer lay the secret to Gimli's resistance to having this gold lust, like most of his kin.

"These words shall go with the gift, . . . . . if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Glóin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion." (Galadriel)

That turned out to be true, as Gimli became the Lord of the Glittering Caves, next to Helm's Deep, yet all the gold it contained never affected him, as did it his kin. Galadriel's prophecy came true.


message 25: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Elizabeth wrote: "Thinking back to the film, they didn't even include that did they?
They made it seem like it was humans, elves and dwarves against two different Orc armies."


Not really just a few eagles flew in, hardly an army. Yes there were two orc armies but really only one was shown fighting the elves, humans, and dwarves. So I still don't get the five armies thing. PJ Should have done the eagle army. Too bad:(


message 26: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments The Eagles were thought to be the guardians of animal life, kind of like the Ents were the guardians of plant life. Most were immense in size.

If my memory serves me correctly, the greatest was Thorondor, measuring over 180' wing span (half a football field)!

I dont recall ever reading their actual number but there were many! And they lived a long life. If all were gathered together from their different mountain homes, and took to the skies at once, they would indeed be deemed a great Army!

Tolkien mentions the Eagles throughout his works, and they seemed to differ in many respects, almost as different species.

All of us wish P.J. had written this landmark fairytale differently in many respects. I know he may have done the best he knew how, but I think he and staff overlooked many (minor) details that could have conncted the storyline much better. The Eagles being one!


message 27: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments In the Hobbit, it is stated:
"Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. But the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds; they were proud and strong and noble-hearted."

They were active in all three Ages. They were associated with Manwë, the ruler of the sky and Lord of the Valar (angels or "gods"). They were sometimes described as "spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles." They often delivered news of Middle Earth to other lands.

We are told that their first appearance came when Manwë sent them to live in the mountains north of the land of Beleriand, to keep an eye on Morgoth.

The Eagles also fought alongside the army of the Valar, Elves, and Men during he War of Wrath. "All the great birds heavens" gathered under the leadership of Thorondor and destroyed most of the dragons during he battle in the air. So they must have been a power to reckon with!


message 28: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethnovak) Rebecca (Shieldmaiden) wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Thinking back to the film, they didn't even include that did they?
They made it seem like it was humans, elves and dwarves against two different Orc armies."

Not really just a f..."


Wow haha, that's funny. That means The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies doesn't have five armies in it. LOL


message 29: by Allison (new)

Allison Lady Galadriel (TheLadyGaladriel) | 11 comments Maybe well there are the orks, the other weird creatures then the dwarves ,men, and elves so to me it has five and I agree on Rebecca because it was frustrating to see thorin die so suddenly yet dumbly


message 30: by Strider (last edited Feb 12, 2015 01:57PM) (new)

Strider | 104 comments Allison wrote: "Maybe well there are the orks, the other weird creatures then the dwarves ,men, and elves so to me it has five and I agree on Rebecca because it was frustrating to see thorin die so suddenly yet du..."


message 31: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Strider wrote: "Allison wrote: "Maybe well there are the orks, the other weird creatures then the dwarves ,men, and elves so to me it has five and I agree on Rebecca because it was frustrating to see thorin die so..."


Lizzy was correct. The Eagles were the Fifth Army. They have been one of the main forces in most of the major conflicts in every Age.

It helps to realize that the Eagles are not part of the earthly created order, but are "created spirits" who have taken on eagle form. They were used initially in keeping watch over Morgoth and his demons, in protecting the Elves.

Gwihir, who rescued Gandalf from Saruman's tower, was small compared to the original Eagles (e.g. Thorondor, 180' wing span).


message 32: by Allison (new)

Allison Lady Galadriel (TheLadyGaladriel) | 11 comments He or Gandalf has been saved when he is in the most danger with the eagles. so without them Gandalf would have been dead a long time ago.


message 33: by Strider (last edited Feb 12, 2015 02:47PM) (new)

Strider | 104 comments Allison wrote: "He or Gandalf has been saved when he is in the most danger with the eagles. so without them Gandalf would have been dead a long time ago."

Allison wrote: "He or Gandalf has been saved when he is in the most danger with the eagles. so without them Gandalf would have been dead a long time ago."


message 34: by Sam (new)

Sam  | 2 comments I agree with Allison. After all without the eagles Gandalf ,who always finds a moth to send help, would have been gone a long time ago.


message 35: by Sam (new)

Sam  | 2 comments Also if you read the first book of Lord of the Rings there will be two sayings that Frodo says: First the Desolation of smaug then the Battle of the Five armies!!!


message 36: by Allison (new)

Allison Lady Galadriel (TheLadyGaladriel) | 11 comments Right!!! Gandalf always seems to find an insect to tell the Eagles that he needs help!


message 37: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Gandalf, like Sauman and Radaghast, must be multi-lingual. :-)


message 38: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) You know I don't mean to be to analytical, which I usually am, but has anyone else ever thought of the fact that the eagles could have just flown the Nine Walkers to Mount Doom to dump the One Ring in it instead of having them walk? But than I suppose that if Tolkien had of done that there would be no reason to even write a book, not really much to write about:)


message 39: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Hey, nothing wrong with being analytical.

Tolkien has had this and other similar questions posed to him often. One questioner wanted to know why an eagle just didn't fly the Ring to Mordor and drop it into the fire.

I cannot go into it now, but it had to do with WHO the Eagles were (spirits), their purpose, and their perspective concerning others. (Not quite the same, but remember how Tree Beard and the others had sat out the past wars, as it had nothing to do with them, per se? A little like that; although when "duty called" the Eagles did fight alongside Elves and Man during each of the Ages.) Even Gandalf could not talk his avian rescuer to take him where he needed to go; only to Rhohan, no further. Nor did the Eagles carry the 14 to the Lonely Mountain. They had to hoof it through some very dangerous terrain.

Short version, so much of the book's adventures and dangers would have been lost if the Eagles had been little more than a taxi service. Tolkien presented them as majestic and independent, owing to no earthly created being, keeping their place and presence limited to key passages in the book(s).


message 40: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Strider wrote: "Hey, nothing wrong with being analytical.

Tolkien has had this and other similar questions posed to him often. One questioner wanted to know why an eagle just didn't fly the Ring to Mordor and dro..."


((Besides, had Tolkien used the Eagles often to accomplish these things, it would have shortened both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings by over half; this would have meant that P.J. could have used the shorter version to have us sit through probably two more ADDITIONAL movies! ??????? ;-) ))


message 41: by Codex (last edited Feb 21, 2015 10:49AM) (new)

Codex Regius (codex_regius) | 15 comments Well, why else would Gandalf scream, "Fly, you fools!" at the others?


message 42: by Rebecca L (new)

Rebecca L (rebeccalsnowe) Strider wrote: "Hey, nothing wrong with being analytical.

Tolkien has had this and other similar questions posed to him often. One questioner wanted to know why an eagle just didn't fly the Ring to Mordor and dro..."


I guess maybe it could be like the elves dislike of dwarves, sometimes they will help them but most of the time they want nothing to do with them.
And I am glad that the eagles didn't just fly the ring to Mount Doom for then we wouldn't have the whole wonderful Hobbit and LOTR saga's. Just wondering was all:)


message 43: by Strider (new)

Strider | 104 comments Rebecca (Shieldmaiden) wrote: "Strider wrote: "Hey, nothing wrong with being analytical.

Tolkien has had this and other similar questions posed to him often. One questioner wanted to know why an eagle just didn't fly the Ring t..."



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