Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

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message 1: by Meg, Goodreads Expert Team Lead (new)

Meg | 29 comments Mod
Any librarians out there who have worked with manga editions in the database? We'd love to hear about common errors or issues you see - the goal is to update the Manual with your information/expertise on this subject. Thanks!


message 2: by Helmut (new)

Helmut (schlimmerdurst) | 43 comments Do you require specific input on "manga", or "graphic novels/bandes dessinées/comics" in general?


message 3: by rivka, Librarian Moderator (new)

rivka | 42444 comments Mod
Both would be helpful.


message 4: by Helmut (last edited Jan 23, 2015 02:24AM) (new)

Helmut (schlimmerdurst) | 43 comments I encounter several problems regularly.

1. I often see "board book" as format for French/Belgian comics. These books are actually hardcovers (thick cardboard for the cover, paper for interior pages).

2. The order of authors is often a problem. There is already a thread on how to order the authors for comic books - a decision on that (e.g. "always as on the cover", even if for a graphic novel the author might be considered by some as more important than the artist, which I seriously doubt).

3. There should be more dedicated roles for comic book authors - "Illustrator" is somewhat misleading, some people use "Scenario" or "Scénariste" for authors. Would be great to have some sort of agreement on these roles.

4. Some comic book series have a different numbering in different languages. This leads to many strange combines. There should be more caution on that.

5. Similarly, there are often volumes containing multiple single books (a new edition containing vols 1,2 and 3 of the original series for example). Very often, I find these combined with one of the original editions (e.g. combined with vol. 1).

6. Automated imports frequently add "French edition", "Kindle edition" etc in the title. Many of these imports don't get automatically combined with the respective main work.

7. Regarding Manga - I assume many readers would love a dedicated field for reading direction (LTR or RTL) - or at least a hint where to put such information, which could be edition dependent.


message 5: by Alex (new)

Alex | 2739 comments I have only done a bit of work with manga, and one thing I would suggest is that you strongly recommend adding the transliteration (romaji) to titles, where applicable, so that it's easier to combine them with their translations.


message 6: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Helmut wrote: "I encounter several problems regularly.

1. I often see "board book" as format for French/Belgian comics. These books are actually hardcovers (thick cardboard for the cover, paper for interior pages).


This issue has been discussed here and is difficult one. Amazon.fr etc and local publishers say those are board books. Here in Findland those bigger size comics Asterix, Tintin etc. european comics are called albumi. Those are not hardcovers. Covers are made card board/paper board similar to paperback cover or cereal box. Pages are also thicker than book paper. So these are neither hardcover or softcover, but between those. I haven't seen any US comics printed on such material. Some countries here in Europe (at least in Findland) there is no paperback and mass market paperback, as in US so it is hard to see difference between those. Maybe mass market paperbacks might be those which are printed regularly under some imprint with ISSN. Quality is still same as paperback.

2. The order of authors is often a problem. There is already a thread on how to order the authors for comic books - a decision on that (e.g. "always as on the cover", even if for a graphic novel the author might be considered by some as more important than the artist, which I seriously doubt).

This is problem, because here in Europe usually more familiar or creator is first. Sometimes he/she is illustrator and sometimes writer. Sometimes it even changes between series, which is first. In some cases original author might have been dead, but his name is used because familiarity. Or name is pseudonym and comics has been written and drawn several authors (Peyo, Strumfs).

4. Some comic book series have a different numbering in different languages. This leads to many strange combines. There should be more caution on that.

Which is correct numbering style? Original French/German or Translated US? How this changes if first complete series is for example added in Finnish translation and it's order and originals are added later? Should translated order remain or removed or added different series?

5. Similarly, there are often volumes containing multiple single books (a new edition containing vols 1,2 and 3 of the original series for example). Very often, I find these combined with one of the original editions (e.g. combined with vol. 1).

This is major headache. I have several comic books that are XXX Vol.1 only difference is issues and an year. Sometimes just an year, because so many new starts (especially Marvel and DC). So book might be Vol.1 from Vol.1(series 1) or Vol.1 from Vol.3 (series 3)

6. Automated imports frequently add "French edition", "Kindle edition" etc in the title. Many of these imports don't get automatically combined with the respective main work.

Sometimes these "Kindle editions" are just (used) paperback single issues with ASIN, not true kindle versions.

In some cases we need super librarian to remove these duplicate and falsely imported/added versions.

I have several comics that are published under ISSN and special issues are published with ISBN. These comics are published monthly and for example summer and christmas issues are ISBN:s so how to treat these? In some cases (Marvel for example) story continues between issues and part of it is in ISBN and part in ISSN issues.

How to treat these single issue imports from Amazon or Librarian added ones? Some of those have over 1000 ratings. What are rules on these if part of those issues have ASIN and others not? Do we remove all or just those without ASIN?


message 7: by Gramarye (new)

Gramarye | 3 comments I'm a frequent updater of manga editions for the series that I follow, primarily adding new Japanese works as I acquire them and tagging them with the proper series codes. However, one majorly frustrating aspect is the inability for librarians to set the original Japanese edition as the primary edition of the work. For instance, the fact that the 'most popular' edition is set as the primary edition often means that the non-Japanese edition is set as primary, whether the popular edition is in English or French or Italian or what have you. Even if regular librarians could somehow mark the Japanese edition as primary for super-librarians to review and approve, that would be very helpful.


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

Gramarye wrote: "I'm a frequent updater of manga editions for the series that I follow, primarily adding new Japanese works as I acquire them and tagging them with the proper series codes. However, one majorly frus..."

I am also an updater of manga editions as well. It also bothers me when I see a non-Japanese edition as the primary edition, especially when looking at the series page. I personally prefer the paperback edition as the primary edition compared to the ebook format, although I cannot change that unfortunately...


message 9: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Most common edition is first. I don't know, can that be changed. So usually books in series might be in any translated issues languages. Manga in question, original language is almost all the time Japanese. But this site is english and most users are also, so English translated version shows first.

In european comics languges might be French, German, Finnish, Spanish etc. and i have found similar problem. Original french issues are only partially added here, but in another language series is complete or complete to currently last translated issue. So series is created in that language an in that publishing order. Then someone adds those originals and creates series for them and then third one does it for English translations. Now there is 3 different serieses for different languges. There is no problem, if it is published in order in every country and serieses are copies, so those can be merged as one. But it might be common, that translations are not complete or in order. I prefer then keep those different serieses, so I can see, which ones are translated to my language and which ones to expect in future or is there conflicts in story, because translation order has been changed. Also it is much easier to search/find books, if series name is in your language (if ISBN is not given). Sometimes (often) names are also translated or at least transliterated, which is confusing.

So I have faced few occasions, that English series is only series and another ones are removed, even though it is not original language, or original is only series and another languages are not mentioned.

Also series requirements change in comics and similar books. Sometimes story must be continuing between books, sometimes same world and characters is enough and sometimes connecting reason might be something else.

ASIN is another magic word. Single issue comics(magazines) are not acceptable, but when those are sold in Amazon and it has ASIN code they turn books acceptable. Even though those might be free few pages long previews. Complete issue as a paperback with ISSN, published monthly is not book in GR terms, but when part of it is given free from Amazon it is book. So there is lots of this Amazon spam around, in which few single issues are sold as Kindle versions, but then rest of that story is not and cannot be completed with paperback (ISSN's) issues. So do we remove Kindle issues or add those paperback ones?

So I don't usually bother to add comics/manga, because those might be removed (ISSN), messed with serieses etc. Especially those serieses that have 50+ books and I don't read them in order, because storywise is not
necessary.


message 10: by Helmut (new)

Helmut (schlimmerdurst) | 43 comments In addition to my "number 5", regarding series and books containing multiple volumes:

For some comic book series, there are several series, which collect the same books, but in different format.

Example:
https://www.goodreads.com/series/6972...
https://www.goodreads.com/series/6972...

I assume this is wrong, as you could integrate the "intégrale" into the "standard" series. Again, something that could be clarified.


message 11: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Yes, sometimes they are separate and sometimes those integrales are added at in the bottom and numbering includes those single numbers.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/8012...

It would be nice to set my primary and secondary languages in profile. Primary which edition is first and secondary languages I read. Then of course for librarian purposes to see all. Now regular readers can add books and they do it easy way. Don't put ISBN's, or use EAN, pick cover which comes first in Google, give incomplete name or title, so there is lots of duplicates. And if those duplicates are put even one shelf, there needs to be super librarian rights to remove them. Basically people add books in vain because search engine is poor, book data is incomplete, or search gives another edition first, not English for example. It seems that search engine is lottery machine, not true search engine. I have several times searched with ISBN and seen 0 results and when I add that book, ISBN is found and I cannot create that book. Finnish is especially hard language for search engine, so I use mostly google to search my books in GR.


message 12: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Yes, sometimes they are separate and sometimes those integrales are added at in the bottom and numbering includes those single numbers.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/8012...

It would be nice to set my primary and secondary languages in profile. Primary which edition is first and secondary languages I read. Then of course for librarian purposes to see all. Now regular readers can add books and they do it easy way. Don't put ISBN's, or use EAN, pick cover which comes first in Google, give incomplete name or title, so there is lots of duplicates. And if those duplicates are put even one shelf, there needs to be super librarian rights to remove them. Basically people add books in vain because search engine is poor, book data is incomplete, or search gives another edition first, not English for example. It seems that search engine is lottery machine, not true search engine. I have several times searched with ISBN and seen 0 results and when I add that book, ISBN is found and I cannot create that book. Finnish is especially hard language for search engine, so I use mostly google to search my books in GR.


message 13: by Ninja Neko (new)

Ninja Neko | 168 comments Something I see a lot is that people create placeholders for the entire manga series. They get popular fast and regular librarians can't merge them anymore, so they need to call for super librarian intervention.

There are also a lot of Filipino editions that don't have a clear isbn number, and they're hard to find online, but seem like legit publications. Not sure what could be done about that though, I guess we'd need more Filipino members to help out with that.

I don't really see an issue with Japanese versus translations as primary edition as you can always add the original title and language on the edition anyway. I always select the exact edition I've read myself, and if it doesn't exist I add it.

Re: Helmut's #1
Board books in Belgium are flexible cardboard covers, not hardcovers.

Re: message #10
Separate series for separate renditions seem perfectly reasonable to me. I can see hardcore fans wanting to own both the regular manga as well as the special editions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank%C5%... explains some of the different formats they can be published in)
Even for Franco-Belgian comics the same story can be printed in colour, black & white, omnibus, etc. I see no reason why they should be combined if they're not part of the same publisher series.


message 14: by Helmut (last edited Feb 02, 2015 11:52AM) (new)

Helmut (schlimmerdurst) | 43 comments Ninja Neko wrote: "Board books in Belgium are flexible cardboard covers, not hardcovers."

"Board book" in the English language is clearly defined - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_book:
"The paperboard is printed and used for both the cover and the interior pages."

Or do a simple google image search for "board book".

A Belgian or French BD is NOT a board book. The interior pages are definitely of a different quality than the cover. And they are only seldom "flexible" - most are very thick covers, 10 or more times the thickness of the interior pages, which are normal or high quality paper.

If they are "flexible", which exist of course, I would call them paperbacks.

You can't redefine that "board book" means something to you, just because the literal translation would lead you to do so. In an English site, you have to stick to what the English term actually means.


message 15: by Ninja Neko (new)

Ninja Neko | 168 comments Re: Helmut: I know, I only meant to say that's what "board book" covers in Belgium. I didn't claim it was correct usage of the term...



Also the Filipino editions I mentioned may be Indonesian, I might have mixed that up.

Another thing I thought of was the authors. Back when there was the option to (auto)import titles from Amazon mangas often were imported with the author names in kanji. Now in order to combine these editions with their translations in other languages I often just merge the kanji author profile into the English (Latin script) one, and then add the Japanese spelling in the English author profile description. I know there's a practice to have duplicate author profiles in both spellings and then add both authors to the book. This is a lot of hassle, and I don't really see much advantage in this personally. If it's done to accommodate searches for the Japanese spelling there should be a better way to do this, like being able to add alternate spellings on the author profile. Or with redirections if that's technically possible. Since this is an English site the author profile should be in Latin script (like the English wikipedia).


message 16: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Helmut wrote: "Ninja Neko wrote: "Board books in Belgium are flexible cardboard covers, not hardcovers."

"Board book" in the English language is clearly defined - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_book:
"Th..."


And paperboard is also clearly defined. And if we follow that analogy, those are boardbooks. Most readers don't see the difference between thick paper and thin paperboard. So for you those European boardbooks are paperboard covered paper comics and in reality it might be other way, so cover is paper and pages inside are paperboard, even though cover is thicker.(very rare cases, but possible).

Problem is that this site is based only US point of view so there is paperback and mass market paperback, separations for softcover, but not boardbook, which doesn't fit either category. Same goes ebooks and audiobooks. It is good that old definitions quarto or folio isn't used here. It would be much better if there was secondary field for type. Major would be hardcover, softcover, ebook, audiobook and then if it is known, secondary field would be mass market paperback, nook, kindle, mp3cd, etc. Especially ebook and audiobook categories change. Who read .pdb, lit or .prc books anymore? So maybe in future .epub, Nook, .azw, Kindle etc. are history? When I buy ebook it might be generic ebook(bought somewhere else than amazon or B&N) or it has same ISBN as an actual book, sometimes softcover and sometimes hardcover.


message 17: by Arto (new)

Arto | 59 comments Helmut wrote: In an English site, you have to stick to what the English term actually means.


This is very poor rule. If publisher says it is board book and Amazon says it is boardbook, and for that particular reader thinks so too, then which has gretest power to say what it is, Amazon, Wikipedia, Publisher, Head Librarian or who? When I add book, I look info from book's publisher and major sellers, not Wikipedia or ask here what people think it might be. Nowadays I don't care about those wars, people can change book from paperback, boardbook or hardcover if they think it is correct for them same happens with audiobooks.

I had also complaint about book cover, which I changed. Comic name was from French, ISBN and description was from Spanish and cover was based from Italian version. Because there was already Italian and French edition and data was mostly from Spanish version I changed name and cover. Then another librarian complained and demanded me to return that old cover because it was prettier, even though it wasn't actual cover of any editions, but Scanlation (non official translation .cbr) cover based on Italian cover.

So there are thousand different opinions here and I'm sure that my interpretation of "rules" isn't more right than anyone elses.


Tatiana Alejandra de Castro Pérez (shoggothroof) | 127 comments Arto wrote: "Major would be hardcover, softcover, ebook, audiobook and then if it is known, secondary field would be mass market paperback, nook, kindle, mp3cd, etc. Especially ebook and audiobook categories change."
I agree with you, it would be clearer.



message 19: by Hanna (new)

Hanna (pipochu) | 8 comments Ninja Neko wrote: "...Now in order to combine these editions with their translations in other languages I often just merge the kanji author profile into the English (Latin script) one, and then add the Japanese spelling in the English author profile description. ..."

What you're doing is against the policy and makes all the work done on those profiles into nothing. Please don't undermine the work of other librarians just because you don't see the point in a policy. I recommend you refresh your memory by reading "Authors published in multiple languages" in https://www.goodreads.com/help/show/2...

Now, about manga. I don't know how bad the situation is at the moment, but some time ago I used to see a lot of manga titles that had a translation (often unofficial) added to or even replacing the original title. Sometimes the translation was in brackets, sometimes it was separated from the original title with a slash or some other symbol. I've even seen titles consisting of the original title in kanji/kana, a transliteration AND a translation. Adding transliterations (in square brackets, of course) I understand, but translations in titles we don't do, right?


message 20: by Ash (new)

Ash Hell | 3 comments board book:
https://www.google.fr/search?q=board+...
hardcover:
https://www.google.fr/search?q=hardco...
paperback:
https://www.google.fr/search?q=paperb...
mass market paperback:
https://www.google.fr/search?q=mass+m...
I hope this will help. I think that European comics, for example can't be seen as board books but are definitely hardcovers. It's obvious that the paperboard used in board books can't be seen as just thick paper, it's apparently a type of book for children.


message 21: by Selena (new)

Selena (sailorstar165) | 34 comments Common things I fix all the time:

1. There is no series listing
2. Editions are not combined
3. Authors names are misspelled (a lot)
4. Different volumes are combined (I once saw "Volume 4" listed as another edition of "Volume 6"). This sadly happens more often than you'd think.
5. Edition languages are wrong
6. Descriptions either have typos (usually from special characters causing jibberish) or are in the wrong language (not always because it's the default description. I saw an English edition with the description in Spanish...)
7. Mix ups between light novels (actual novels) and manga (graphic novels). I have seen more than one Light Novel listed as a manga and vice versa, and mixed up as editions of each other, and mixed up in the series pages.
8. Many, many author pages not caused by misspellings (The names written in Kanji as well as "Romanized" entries with their family name first as well as another with their given name first)

For the most part, they're just careless mistakes that I see all the time even with obscure non-manga books, but those last two are the biggest headaches to fix.


message 22: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 124 comments Selena wrote: "Common things I fix all the time:

Surprisingly, with the exception of #7 (and replacing "Kanji" with "accented letters in French and German"), this is pretty much exactly the same list as the things I fix while working through old theological books.


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