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Infinite Jest by D.F. Wallace, WEEK 15
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So the whole Infinite Jest debacle was apparently Jims way of trying to interface with his son. Okay.
Rosemary wrote: "Ah, OK! Yes, I guessed about the incest, but I thought Orin was too young to be Mario's father.Could he be Hal's???"
I don't think so, he's too young to be either unless he's a lot older than I've posited him to be. If Hal is say 16 and Orin no more than 26 which is really pushing the limit of age I don't think it possible he fathered Hal at age 10. And definitely not Mario at around age 8.
Linda wrote: She was dating Orin at the time, so do we know at what age he went to be a punter? Just as an aside, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but 'punter' is a slang term for clients of prostitutes.
Kaycie wrote: Oh, also, on the same page as the avril comment, there is a mention that avril placed the bottle of whiskey beside himself when he committed suicide. Why would she do that? I suspected once that himself suicide was a set-up, though i thought that was far fetched. It was the only explanation i saw for the whiskey placement though. ."Was this actually placed there after he killed himself though or just given to him before? The bottle may have been put there by Himself before he killed himself as a sort of statement.
Kaycie wrote:And another question....back to hamlet...is this just a really loose based on hamlet story? Because i don't know who gately would represent in the story,"
Gately is the soldiers/friends (Horatio) that Hamlets father first revealed himself to on the battlements. The ones who alerted Hamlet to his existence.
Rosemary wrote: Well, I guess you could be right on the fatherhood issue. But it seems to me that everything could equally be explained by Orin knowing that Jim wasn't Mario's father, and something happening between Orin and Avril much later.If Avril was into little boys, wouldn't she be going for one of the Little Buddies rather than John Wayne (probably the most mature student at the school), or at least having JW dress in little boy pyjamas and carry a teddy bear or whatever, rather than Orin's football gear that he didn't start wearing until he was at college? I don't know much about child abuse but I didn't think abusers of little kids switched to 18-year-olds very much.
On the other hand, it may just be that I don't want to believe she would have had her 8 or 9 year old son impregnate her, because it's just such a sickening thing!
I don't think he's Hals father and definitely not Mario's. If something went on between Avril and Orin I agree that all the signs point to when he was playing football or at least older.
Kaycie wrote: "I am also not a Hamlet expert by any means, but the ghost appeared to Hamlet at the beginning of the story to inform him that his death was not natural, and that he had been murdered by his wife and brother so they could take the throne. One reason I was suspecting Himself's death might have had more to it.."That is where the ghost appears in Hamlet but I think this story is very very loose when it comes to following the story. My money is currently on the message being about where the master tape is which leads to the memory we saw right at the beginning of Hal and Don digging up the head. Rather ominously though with John Wayne in a mask watching them do it...
Kaycie wrote: Rosemary wrote: "But it seems to me that everything could equally be explained by Orin knowing that Jim wasn't Mario's father, and something happening between Orin and Avril much later."The shocking part about the quote is that is specifies that Avril had relations with her son "AS A CHILD", which is the part that led both Linda and I to think he might be the father. And Orin knowing that Himself wasn't Mario's father doesn't explain it all for me...especially ORin's possible behavior issues as a result of child abuse.
Rosemary wrote: "I don't know much about child abuse but I don't think abusers of little kids switch to 18-year-olds very much."
I honestly don't know, and you do make a good point! I just think I never considered Avril as a "child abuser" and more of an "unable to control herself around things that might have Y-chromosomes". I think she does have some sort of Orin-specific issue though (the football gear scene with John Wayne), so maybe thats why she broke a typical "pattern?""
I think the image that jumped into your head when you heard the 'as a child' bit was of a really young boy sucking lollipops? But a child could refer to anyone who isn't legally an adult. What age is that in the States - 18 or 20?
Rosemary wrote: "There's no indication in this conversation, I think. I don't think he knows, and he probably never intended it."I think he probably knows now which is why he's coming back. He needs to get this destroyed before he can rest.
Nicola wrote: "If something went on between Avril and Orin I agree that all the signs point to when he was playing football or at least older. "Except that the only direct comment we have about the abuse specifies that Avril had relations with her son as a child...indicating that it was in fact as a child and not a college age football player.
The bottle may have been put there by Himself before he killed himself as a sort of statement.
The line i was recalling here mentioned Avril placing the bottle by Himself. I pictured it a after he was dead, but can't find the part on my phone to quote it.
Regardless, I don't think we are ever going to know these things. There are little comments and hints at something that could be possible scattered here and there for people to find and pick over and debate infinitely. There are parts that claim something is one way and parts that claim it's another. DFW himself might not even know for sure. I agree with the long standing phrase used for this novel over the past few weeks...it's going to be a choose your own adventure at the end.
Rosemary wrote: "Linda wrote: "So, does this mean that Gately's toothbrush incident is going to come bite him in the butt? "Or brush him in the butt ... it certainly explains why he is inclined to become anxious ..."
Oh man, he's got enough on him plate with him currently having a meltdown about all of the times in his life he didn't protect people. I'm sure that is the point of all of him flashbacks. He's allowing bad things to happen around him without trying to stop them. Most especially to his mother.
Ami wrote: Do you think it's so much "she's hung up on Orin as a football player," or bringing to life a fantasy emulating the PGOAT, the cheerleader, who took Avril's baby boy away from his mother...? Joelle was the wedge between mother and son... Between mother and lover, who also happens to be her son. The odd behavior Joelle couldn't put her finger on, that made the hair on the back of her neck stand, having seen through Avril's transparent countenance at the Thanksgiving Dinner was nothing more than absolute jealousy. ."Oh that's totally the reason. I thought we'd all agreed on that. Avril as the Cheerleader and Joelle picking up on the 'vibes' during dinner.
Nicola wrote: "I think the image that jumped into your head when you heard the 'as a child' bit was of a really young boy sucking lollipops? But a child could refer to anyone who isn't legally an adult. What age is that in the States - 18 or 20?
That age is generally 18, but he would have been older than 18 when he started playing football.
Nicola wrote: "Quite a lot of information from Mary Notkin including one statement about Orin accusing MP of being sexually involved with 'their' father. Possible? Hmm, filing away.There was also the part which..."
Ennet House has a poltergeist but I'm not sure a) why he's managing to communicate with Gately and not anyone else
I think you answered your own question when you shed light on Gately's dreams and encounters with Following Hamlet I guess the ghost appeared to soldiers first and on the battlements rather than inside the castle.
Maybe Gately serves some other purpose too...And if we're on board together with Hal's recollection of the incident including Gately, this makes sense to me?
Kaycie wrote: "Nicola wrote: "If something went on between Avril and Orin I agree that all the signs point to when he was playing football or at least older. "Except that the only direct comment we have about t..."
I agree with you here, I also find there's more in the text alluding to someone closer to Mario's genetics being the father (taking into account his abnormalities) versus that of a "supposed" half brother...there's also the commonality in incestuous relationships throughout the novel (mother son, father son, father daughter)... Orin's treatment of Mario, and Hal was disapproving of this, Orin's shunning of Mario; granted, if he wasn't shunning, he was physically tormenting Mario. I don't think it's as far fetched a scenario, Orin fathering Mario, I see it holds more clout than the alternative. Plus, Hal's account of C.T. being Mario's father was per Orin, and we all know how credible Orin can be.
Rosemary wrote: "Orin went straight from ETA into college football, where he met Joelle. I think he is 10/11 years older than Hal, and maybe 9 years older than Mario.Building in 9 months' gestation, I don't think..."
I don't think Avril's affinity for anything Canadian, and with a Y-chromosome, is little boy specific, I think her proclivities lay with younger men and this would tie in the John Wayne scenario.
Ami wrote: "And isn't this process you speak of another form of the "Infinite Jest..." The rereading; the flipping back and forth to the beginning, or wherever you see fit; over and over again, to find the finite answer... It will never end?"I think you've stated the meaning of the title perfectly, Ami. And how many times have I read that so many people end up rereading this book immediately after finishing? I'm sure there are not too many books out there that people feel compelled to do this with.
Ami wrote: "I wonder how this fits in with the bit at the beginning of the book, about Gately and Hal digging up his father's head.I attributed it to finding the master cartridge, Linda. Himself divulges to Hal, during their conversation with Himself in disguise, that there was a cartridge implanted in his head. Nicola and I discussed this briefly in W13, I believe, only a little while ago. "
Yes, thanks Ami! I think I had forgotten about the master cartridge being in his head referenced earlier when I read this part.
Ami wrote: "So we could have more appearances of the wraith to comeI think he's been around the whole time after reading this section. He could be the reason for all the odd paranormal activity on the ETA campus, minus the moving bed (that's somebody trying to mess with Stice, it's too funny).. Trying to get Hal's attention? "
Hmmm....that's an interesting theory I had not thought of.
Nicola wrote: "Hal drops in to what is quite probably the most embarrassing meeting in all of history ":) Yeah, I would have died of embarrassment...
Hal, the Meeting and Can I just say, if Johnette Foltz intentionally sent Hal to the wrong meeting due to her inferiority complex in relation to the upper crust...Well, I'm pretty darn mad at her. That's terrible! It was so disheartening to see Hal take this first step, on his own, and it turn out to be a hoax. Gosh, I felt for the kid...
Molly Notkin
I found her section to be so much more informative than Joelle's from the previous week. On 788, there's some great insight as to what's on the Entertainment. Nicola's onto something about the contents of this tape being a message for Hal, this message being Death is always female, and that the female is always maternal. I.e. that the woman who kills you is always your next life's mother and how it represented a little more than the thinly veiled cries of a man at the very terminus of his existential tether-how poignant, and deep, JOI! Sure beats my first impressions of the Entertainment from way back when, which was essentially that it was a sex tape with Avril as the star...
My one question in regards to the content is what was meant by ...talking 'down' to it-in both senses of the word when describing what Madam Psychosis was doing in the film...I understand she was talking down to the camera, but what's the other meaning (789).
Interesting parallel between the deaths of both Himself and Joelle's mother...Gruesome deaths by kitchen appliances.
-That Madame Psychosis and the film's Auteur had not been sexually enmeshed...
more affirmation this connection didn't happen, I believe her...
Pemulis Revisted FN 332Sounds like Pemulis is having to deal with his own personal Armageddon during the meeting with deLint? Oh, my heart broke for this kid. I guess his expulsion was inevitable, with Avril, C.T. and deLint, gunning for him since the beginning. Since W14, I actually wondered what changed in Pemulis to where Hal regarded his brass-face as monstrous. It was impressed upon me, previous to these two episodes that Pemulis was a laid back kid, but nobody's fool...Why is he all of sudden monstrous followed by this sudden expulsion? Hal is undergoing 2 days of withdrawal, could this be affecting his sense of perception...I doubt it?
Ami wrote: "My one question in regards to the content is what was meant by ...talking 'down' to it-in both senses of the word when describing what Madam Psychosis was doing in the film...I understand she was talking down to the camera, but what's the other meaning (789)."I took this to mean that MP was acting as a sort of mother-figure in the film, talking to the audience as if they were infants? So the talking down to is as a mother talks down to her children, not in a condescending way, but in the motherly comforting sense, as if she were swaddling the audience in her monologue. Not sure if this is right, but it was my impression.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "My one question in regards to the content is what was meant by ...talking 'down' to it-in both senses of the word when describing what Madam Psychosis was doing in the film...I understa..."Ahhhh! Yep, that works...I thought it was about something so much more sordid. Thank you!
Linda wrote: "I took this to mean that MP was acting as a sort of mother-figure in the film, talking to the audience as if they were infants? "(view spoiler)
Rosemary wrote: "Linda wrote: "I took this to mean that MP was acting as a sort of mother-figure in the film, talking to the audience as if they were infants? "[spoilers removed]"
(view spoiler)
WOW. This section. Wow. The craziest section of an already crazy book.I was bouncing with excitement when Hal actually showed up at the Ennett House...and that was just the beginning! :)
It did not occur to me that Orin could have fathered Mario as a child, but it does seem possible...he would have been about 8 years old, which is probably just barely biologically feasible (although terrible)...and considering the recurring themes of parent-child abuse, it actually seems kind of likely. And it does seem significantly more fitting as a cause for what we know about Orin.
On page 737, Joelle mentions a story Orin told about being a child and wanting to kill the infant Mario with a Quaker Oats box. This seems pretty extreme even for a jealous brother...
The Support meeting that Hal went to...wow. Yeah.
Kudos to whoever it was that realized it was Otis P. Lord in the room with Gately. :)
Just in case anyone (Dustin?) comes to this thread after me, I want to clarify that I think Rosemary and Linda's spoilers directly above are for later sections in the book. I should be more careful with my clicking!
Linda wrote: "So, does this mean that Gately's toothbrush incident is going to come bite him in the butt?"
It already has, actually -- the ADA was responsible for coming down hard on Gately after DuPlessis' accidental death. So the ADA is coming back for more revenge! The toothbrush incident really must have pissed him off.
The trouble is I can't remember what's covered in this section and what comes further on. I'm actually going to be re-reading this now that I've had enough of a gap. I imagine I'll pick up more on the re-read :-)I'm glad you are sticking with it John :-)
Acciaccutura - musical 'grace' note. One that is quickly played before the main note.
Alembic - Chemical distilling device. Used to refine whatever is inside it and make it purer. Can be associated with a still for making alcohol.
Latrodectus Mactans - Black Widow Spider
Neutral Density Point - Probably something to do with photography; manipulates colours
CHIAROSCURO - A technique (also used in photography) for contrasting dark and light.
Proprioception - is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.
Testudo - A tortise
Annulate - this one again - Having, or being made of, rings or ring like substances
Bricolage - Making art from all sorts of different things that happen to be lying around. Rather like this book -)
Catalept - a nervous condition characterized by muscular rigidity and fixity of posture regardless of external stimuli, as well as decreased sensitivity to pain
Gerrymander - the chopping up of political districts in a way that favours one particular party.
Scopophilia - Getting pleasure from looking. Like entertainment...
Laertes - from Hamlet, blames him for the deaths of his father and sister. Kills him. (John Wayne?)
Extruding - Something that pokes out
Strigil - tool used in Greek and Roman times for scraping off sweat and dirt in the baths.
Lordosis - a forward curving spine
Impost - a tax
Sinistral - Left handed. Quite a few people in this book are left handed.
Meniscus - a crescent shaped structure (Convexity/Concavity?)
Chronaxy - The minimum interval of time necessary to electrically stimulate a muscle or nerve fiber, using twice the minimum current needed to elicit a threshold response. (clear as mud)
Poor Yorick - Hello Hamlet quote
Luculus - ? Lucullus was a very famous Roman general
Montclair - type of car owned by James Incandenza
DE SICA
Vittorio De Sica (1902-1974) was an Italian neorealist filmmaker, probably most famous for The Bicycle Thief.
NEO-REAL
"Italian neorealism is a style of film characterized by stories set amongst the poor and working class, filmed on location, frequently using nonprofessional actors.
Crane Dolly - for holding and moving a camera
CIRCUMAMBIENTFOUNDDRAMALEVIRATEMARRIAGE
Circumambient means walking around. "Found Drama" was one of James Incandenza's contributions to film artistic history. Levirate marriage is a tradition in several cultures whereby the younger brother of a deceased man marries the dead brother's widow.