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Lord of the World > Through Bk 1 Ch 3

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message 1: by Manny (last edited May 26, 2020 10:28AM) (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
For those that find the early chapters difficult. It is a little hard to orient oneself. Here is a summary of the Prologue and Book 1 Chapter 1.

Summary:
Prologue:
A conversation on the state of the world between Fr. Percy Franklin, Fr. John Francis, and Mr. Templeton, an old gentleman who has lived through the previous century. The time is about a hundred years from the writing of the novel, which would make it the early years of the 21st century. The world is now being dominated by absolute materialists. Most nations have been eliminated, and the world is dominated by Marxist entities. Three factions exist: A European confederation of Marxist states, an Asian empire ruled by a “Son of Heaven” emperor, and an American Republic consisting of North, South, and Central American entities. The world’s belief systems now consist of only three: secular humanism, Roman Catholicism, and an assortment of Eastern religions.

Book I, Chapter 1:
We meet Oliver Brand, a Labour Minister of Parliament, and through his dialogue with his secretary, Mr. Phillips and his wife Mabel, learn that an apocalyptic war between the European confederation and the Asian Empire is looming. Only America through the person of Mr. Felsenburgh may be able to head off this Armageddon. While Oliver prepares a speech at breakfast, Brand comes to the conclusion that all the religions in Asia are to blame for the Eastern Empire’s aggression. He considers how the elimination of religions in the west, except for pockets of Catholicism, has created the ideal state. On the way to her workplace, Mabel witness an enormous accident, a volor (some sort of flying locomotive) had fallen out of the sky killing all the passengers. She witnesses a priest, Fr. Percy, administering last rites. She returns home where she discusses the events with Oliver, who ridicules the superstitious religion.


message 2: by Eric (new)

Eric Bradley | 2 comments This is very helpful, the prologue is originally a bit tricky to follow.


message 3: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Eric wrote: "This is very helpful, the prologue is originally a bit tricky to follow."

Oh good. It took me a couple of reads to sort that out. Like a lot of science fiction, one has to understand the ground rules up front to understand the story as it progresses.


message 4: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments I actually found his first page disclaimer "If you don't like long prologues you can skip this," to be really amusing. Especially once I read the prologue and was like "This is so different from modern distopian fiction that most people would be completely lost."


message 5: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Joseph wrote: "I actually found his first page disclaimer "If you don't like long prologues you can skip this," to be really amusing. Especially once I read the prologue and was like "This is so different from mo..."

Yes, I saw that. I wonder if he was serious. I think I would be lost without that Prologue.


message 6: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments I mean, 1907 so who knows.


message 7: by Galicius (last edited May 27, 2020 09:53AM) (new)

Galicius | 436 comments Thank you Manny for a clear and concise introduction, which can be a bit murky on first reading. I found the volors problematic throughout the novel. At best, I visualized them as Zeppelins in their slow movement. The science part of Benson’s novel is not his strong point.


message 8: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments Seriously digging into this prologue, I get the sense that Fr. Benson's set up had some influence on Orwell for 1984. Major obvious difference being that in Benson's case the only really communist faction is the Europeans. That being said, the idea of the unification of the Dragon and Chrysanthemum Thrones is fascinating and the idea that the emperor of a unified China and Japan being referred to as the "Son of Heaven" seems to build on China's understanding of herself as the supreme empire and the Japanese belief that the Imperial House is descended from the sun god. I very much appreciated the use of a parlor chat to fill the reader in on a hundred years of postulated history in order to get us caught up and ready for the political and social action which we're seeing in the rest of the novel. I also very much appreciated being introduced to Frs Oliver and Francis before we really get into it.


message 9: by Tim (new)

Tim | 2 comments I'm all caught up through chapter 3, and whoa. This is some pretty bleak stuff. It's very interesting reading a book written about the end times, at the turn of the twentieth century, before all the really crazy stuff started happening. It makes one wonder what Msgr Benson would have thought had he lived another 30 years or so.


message 10: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Galicius wrote: "Thank you Manny for a clear and concise introduction, which can be a bit murky on first reading. I found the volors problematic throughout the novel. At best, I visualized them as Zeppelins in thei..."

Was it a Zeppelin? For some reason I got the impression it was some sort of flying train. According to this Sansagent dictionary:

"Volor is a futuristic aerial vehicle which seems to resemble a cross between a Jules Verne-designes airplane and an ornithopter, featured in the fiction novel "Lord of the World", written by Robert Hugh Benson. In his novel, they are used for both civilian air travel, much like todays airlines, and for military purposes. Early in the novel a volor crashes onto a crowded transit platform similar to a train station. The interior is described as having a central passage with cabins to the left and right, enclosed by glass doors."
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/volor...

I guess the train station-like platform caused me to think flying train. I haven't read Jules Verne but it does sound like an airplane and a ornithopter is an airplane that flaps wings like a bird. I think it is meant to be a mechanical device and not a balloon. I guess Benson couldn't envision propeller or jet fueled planes. He was thinking bird wings.


message 11: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Tim wrote: "I'm all caught up through chapter 3, and whoa. This is some pretty bleak stuff. It's very interesting reading a book written about the end times, at the turn of the twentieth century, before all th..."

It is, and amazingly prophetic in some respects to today's world.


message 12: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Joseph wrote: "Seriously digging into this prologue, I get the sense that Fr. Benson's set up had some influence on Orwell for 1984. Major obvious difference being that in Benson's case the only really communist ..."

It certainly would be interesting to know if Orwell had read this.


message 13: by Eric (new)

Eric Bradley | 2 comments I was explaining this introduction at a family gathering this weekend, and it was assumed that I was reading George Orwell, of which I had to correct them and state otherwise.


message 14: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
I'm a little past the Prologue, and the bleakness and functionality of the environment, the furniture, etc. makes me shudder. I suppose it is part of the genre, but I've never been able to warm up to this. It is the very opposite of the superabunance of Creation.


message 15: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
The mother complains about the gritty "food-stuff." Benson was way ahead of soylent, lol!

Food is another aspect of the abundant life, the flavors, textures, colors, and aromas. In a world of conformity even food has to loose its variety and vibrancy.


message 16: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "I'm a little past the Prologue, and the bleakness and functionality of the environment, the furniture, etc. makes me shudder. I suppose it is part of the genre, but I've never been able to warm up ..."

That's why it's a dystopia! The very opposite of heaven.


message 17: by Madeleine (new)

Madeleine Myers | 562 comments The modes of transportation in this society remind me of the recent steampunk fantasy novels which also envision original technology and transportation. Another way Benson was ahead of his time.


message 18: by Manny (last edited May 28, 2020 01:18PM) (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
By the way, the language mentioned in the book Esperanto was a real artificial international language created about twenty years before Benson wrote the book. Here from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto


message 19: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments Speaking of the Esperanto, I appreciate the contrast between a made up language of peace, which popular TV and film still makes jokes about, and the language of the Roman Rite as the true language of peace. It's subtle, but my amature linguist self appreciates the snide humor.


message 20: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Manny wrote: "By the way, the language mentioned in the book Esperanto was a real artificial international language created about twenty years before Benson wrote the book. Here from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikip..."


Oh, wasn't this a dead end!
It completely ignores human nature. It undermines the natural way people interact. A social engineer's dream.


message 21: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Individualism is equated with Catholicism, and therefore "not rational." The whole premise of the collective is that there is no more individualism. Yet human nature, the individual, cannot be completely suppressed even among those who fervently believe in the collective. It will be interesting to see how Benson will develop this further.


message 22: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "Oh, wasn't this a dead end!
It completely ignores human nature. It undermines the natural way people interact. A social engineer's dream.

reply | delete | flag *

Exactly. All these made up languages have all failed.


message 23: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Summary
Book 1 Chapter 2
We meet Fr. Percy Franklin, part of the Cathedral staff at Westminster. He writes a letter to the Cardinal in Rome about the potential law establishing Esperanto as the official language, the success of Freemasonry in the culture, the abdication of a number of priests to the Freemasons, but the conversion of the Anglican Archbishop to Catholicism. He meets with Fr. Francis who is there to tell him he no longer believes in Christianity and has renounced his religious vows. Afterward Percy goes into the chapel where he prays and speaks to God on this crises. He has a mystical vision of an upcoming apocalypse. That evening he discusses at dinner with the other priests at the Cathedral the state of the world, the increasing power of the Freemasons, Felsenburgh, who is a freemason himself, and of the abdication of priests. A Fr. Blackmore connects the state of world to the anti-religious precepts of the freemasons, implying a Satanic association.


message 24: by Manny (last edited May 29, 2020 09:01AM) (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
I found section II of chapter 2 to be one of the best depictions of a person in prayer in all of literature. If you've read it, go back and read it again. It's worth a second read with that in mind. I would post the entire section here but it's too long. Let me post two parts.

First when he first walks into the chapel.

It was drawing on towards sunset, and the huge dark place was lighted here and there by patches of ruddy London light that lay on the gorgeous marble and gildings finished at last by a wealthy convert. In front of him rose up the choir, with a line of white surpliced and furred canons on either side, and the vast baldachino in the midst, beneath which burned the six lights as they had burned day by day for more than a century; behind that again lay the high line of the apse-choir with the dim, window-pierced vault above where Christ reigned in majesty. He let his eyes wander round for a few moments before beginning his deliberate prayer, drinking in the glory of the place, listening to the thunderous chorus, the peal of the organ, and the thin mellow voice of the priest. There on the left shone the refracted glow of the lamps that burned before the Lord in the Sacrament, on the right a dozen candles winked here and there at the foot of the gaunt images, high overhead hung the gigantic cross with that lean, emaciated Poor Man Who called all who looked on Him to the embraces of a God.


Beautifully written. And then the paragraphs where he has a mystical vision.

He saw the Body Mystical in its agony, strained over the world as on a cross, silent with pain; he saw this and that nerve wrenched and twisted, till pain presented it to himself as under the guise of flashes of colour; he saw the life-blood drop by drop run down from His head and hands and feet. The world was gathered mocking and good-humoured beneath. “He saved others: Himself He cannot save.... Let Christ come dozen from the Cross and we will believe.” Far away behind bushes and in holes of the ground the friends of Jesus peeped and sobbed; Mary herself was silent, pierced by seven swords; the disciple whom He loved had no words of comfort.

He saw, too, how no word would be spoken from heaven; the angels themselves were bidden to put sword into sheath, and wait on the eternal patience of God, for the agony was hardly yet begun; there were a thousand horrors yet before the end could come, that final sum of crucifixion.... He must wait and watch, content to stand there and do nothing; and the Resurrection must seem to him no more than a dreamed-of hope. There was the Sabbath yet to come, while the Body Mystical must lie in its sepulchre cut off from light, and even the dignity of the Cross must be withdrawn and the knowledge that Jesus lived. That inner world, to which by long effort he had learned the way, was all alight with agony; it was bitter as brine, it was of that pale luminosity that is the utmost product of pain, it hummed in his ears with a note that rose to a scream ... it pressed upon him, penetrated him, stretched him as on a rack.... And with that his will grew sick and nerveless.

“Lord! I cannot bear it!” he moaned....


Superb! The whole section II is superb.


message 25: by Madeleine (new)

Madeleine Myers | 562 comments And that is one of the best reasons why this book should be read more than once, especially in these difficult times. Thank you, Manny.


message 26: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
I find the name ‘Felsenburgh’ interesting. The German word “Felsen” means rock or boulder. The word for fortress is “Felsenburg” or the short version, “Burg”, which can also mean castle.

These are all war-like terms invoking fortification.

Also Martin Luther comes to mind and his most famous hymn, “A Mighty Fortress is our God.”


message 27: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "I find the name ‘Felsenburgh’ interesting. The German word “Felsen” means rock or boulder. The word for fortress is “Felsenburg” or the short version, “Burg”, which can also mean castle.

These ar..."


That's pretty interesting Kerstin. I do believe it has merit. Oliver Brand made me think of Oliver Cromwell, the Puritan who overthrew the English monarchy and prevented Catholicism from making a comeback. Percy, now that I think on it, recalls Percival, the Knight of the Holy Grail legends. One had to be a holy knight to have achieved the grail.


message 28: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Manny wrote: "I found section II of chapter 2 to be one of the best depictions of a person in prayer in all of literature. If you've read it, go back and read it again. It's worth a second read with that in mind..."

My thought while reading through this section was that only someone who practices deep prayer could write so eloquently about it.


message 29: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "Manny wrote: "I found section II of chapter 2 to be one of the best depictions of a person in prayer in all of literature. If you've read it, go back and read it again. It's worth a second read wit..."

Another good observation Kerstin. Yes, I wish I could pray that deeply. I’m jealous. ;)


message 30: by Frances (new)

Frances Richardson | 532 comments Manny, the very fact that you noticed this section and were so affected by it says that you identify with a deep and sincere prayer life, I think.


message 31: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Frances wrote: "Manny, the very fact that you noticed this section and were so affected by it says that you identify with a deep and sincere prayer life, I think."

Well, I noticed because I have a keen eye for good writing. When I pray I have a hard time going more than fifteen minutes deep. And even then it's usually spelled out for me in the Liturgy of the Hours. At adoration I might pray fifteen or twenty minutes but at some point I run out of prayer thoughts and sit back. I might read something devotional, but it's not my mind continuing on. What Fr. Percy does there, and I have heard of others that can do that, is continue deeper where others might stop.


message 32: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Manny wrote: "What Fr. Percy does there, and I have heard of others that can do that, is continue deeper where others might stop."

There must be a letting go of a greater magnitude, to stay in the present with God. To simply be in the present moment with God is hard when the mind keeps chattering against your will.


message 33: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Summary

Book 1 Chapter 3
Oliver Brand is going to make a speech commemorating the 50th anniversary of the “Poor Laws” reform and socialist politician responsible for getting them passed, Braithwaite. During the middle of the speech a terrorist attempts to shoot Brand, sending the gathered crowd into a stampede. We learn that Brand is only slightly injured with a flesh wound to the arm and the terrorist, a Catholic, is trampled and killed. When he comes home and discusses it with Mabel, he notices that his mother seems to have Catholic sympathies. Shortly Oliver has to leave for Paris where a diplomatic gathering is to convene, and while away his mother grows ill. When Oliver returns later than expected he tells Mabel that Felsenburgh has resolved the conflict between Europe and Asia, and war has been avoided.


message 34: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
The Masonic hymn, probably in lieu of a national anthem, "had a religious ring; the unintelligent Christian could sing them without a qualm; yet their sense was plain enough—the old human creed that man was all. Even Christ's, words themselves were quoted. The kingdom of God, it was said, lay within the human heart, and the greatest of all graces was Charity."

The not so subtle humanist propaganda with its obligatory distortion of words and meaning. Only the gullible sees a Christian meaning. There is also a reference to Modernism, " The kingdom of God... lay within the human heart:.
Lets recall from Pascendi Dominici Gregis (St Pope Pius X encyclical against Modernism (1907) we read last year) , at the core of it is the notion that religion is not objectively knowable, it is mere sentiment. For the Christian this means that Revelation, the Incarnation, and the Resurrection are only figments of the imagination. Jesus Christ is nothing but a historical figure. Religion in the Modernist understanding is not rational.


message 35: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
As an aside, there is an encyclical against Freemasonry and Naturalism, Humanum Genus (1884) by Pope Leo XIII. It isn't all that long, 36 paragraphs.
https://www.newadvent.org/library/doc...


message 36: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "The Masonic hymn, probably in lieu of a national anthem, "had a religious ring; the unintelligent Christian could sing them without a qualm; yet their sense was plain enough—the old human creed tha..."

1907 is the year both the novel and Pascendi were written. And the year Marionette in Ecstasy, our last Catholic fiction read, was set. Not a coincidence.


message 37: by Irene (new)

Irene | 909 comments Right now, this novel portrays a rather tame view of the developments of the 20th century compared with with actually occurred. I wonder how this novel would be different if he could have foreseen the ovens of the Nazis, the killing fields of Cambodia, the ecological devistation of over consumption, and so much more. Rather than being unified into 3 major geographical groups, our globe, even our country, feels increasingly divided.


message 38: by Kerstin (last edited May 31, 2020 08:34AM) (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Irene wrote: "Right now, this novel portrays a rather tame view of the developments of the 20th century compared with with actually occurred. I wonder how this novel would be different if he could have foreseen ..."

What strikes me in these early chapters is how orderly the populace is. The establishment of left-leaning/Communist/Nazi (or whatever moniker they have since the French Revolution) regimes is always accompanied by crackdowns and violence, the incarceration of dissenters and executions. Fr. Benson may have underestimated the brute force necessary here. The resentment and discontent of the populace has to be controlled throughout the life of the regime. There is a reason why they have a very active secret police and an army of snitchers. Large gatherings to worship the regime are mandatory for the people - they don't go out of their free will unless you're brainwashed or profit.

As for the ecological destruction, it was no where worse than in the former East Block. The horror stories that emerged after the fall of the Berlin Wall makes you shudder. I can personally attest to this. When we visited my grandparents in Communist East Germany there was a nearby purple river, and like in a bubble bath there was foam on top and these "foam islands" endlessly drifted on, many a foot high or more.


message 39: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
To add to my previous comment. Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI gave a series of talks way back in 1958 on the topic of brotherhood. He explores in detail starting with the Greeks what brotherhood is and how with collectivism it gets distorted. Instead of a loving community as we profess in an authentically Christian context that affirms and cherishes the innate dignity of the human person you have a (class) struggle. You are either in or out, and the ensuing struggle always implies violence in one form or another. The innate dignity of the individual cannot be maintained, and within a materialist-secular context it is impossible to define because you cannot define esoteric terms like "dignity" - what do you see or measure?


message 40: by Irene (new)

Irene | 909 comments Yes, ecologic damage was done in every country, on every continent that industrialized. It was a result of production for production sake, of an attitude that treated the created world as the property of each and every group to exploit and ravage for their gain.

I agree, the initial chapters do give us an orderly world in which people appear generally to be contented. Right now, it is feeling more like "Brave New World" than like "1984".


message 41: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Irene wrote: "Right now, this novel portrays a rather tame view of the developments of the 20th century compared with with actually occurred. I wonder how this novel would be different if he could have foreseen ..."

I don't know how far you are. I'm just through that last chapter I summarized above. Part I is called The Advent, so I imagine there is going to be more.

The main theme is striking, though, in its prophesy, that is the elimination of God through humanitarianism, whether it be through socialism or freemasonry. So far I am captivated by this novel.

Also, back to the 20th century let's not forget that Nazi was an acronym for National Socialism. Somehow the socialism seems to get forgotten.


message 42: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "To add to my previous comment. Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI gave a series of talks way back in 1958 on the topic of brotherhood. He explores in detail starting with the Greeks what brotherhoo..."

Well said Kerstin. And Pope BXVI lived through National Socialism, as i just mentioned above.


message 43: by Manny (last edited May 31, 2020 11:39AM) (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Irene wrote: "Yes, ecologic damage was done in every country, on every continent that industrialized. It was a result of production for production sake, of an attitude that treated the created world as the property of each and every group to exploit and ravage for their gain.."

Not to get on a side issue, but there is a Biblical directive for man to use the earth, and there is a Biblical responsibility to keep God's creation. There is that tension. It seems to me that democracy is at ultimately fault. With the establishment of democracies, a vote is essentially given to the general public: achieve middle class lives through a production economy or live peasant's lives by small scale farming. I think everywhere around the world when such a choice is given, the production economy is chosen. So then is democracy good or bad?


message 44: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Manny wrote: "Also, back to the 20th century let's not forget that Nazi was an acronym for National Socialism. Somehow the socialism seems to get forgotten."

Is it ever! And the name is so obvious:
NSDAP - Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter Partei, national socialist German workers party.


message 45: by Frances (new)

Frances Richardson | 532 comments What an image that purple river with the foam which endlessly drifts on is, Kerstin. Wonderful. In message 32, you describe the mind which keeps "chattering on" against one's will. In the East, they call this continuous wandering of our thoughts the "monkey mind" which we learn to discipline and focus, not unlike the way the way we might go to a gym and lift weights.

The imposition of order, the suppression of religion, the denial of individual rights: don't we see that being done right now in Hong Kong?


message 46: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments https://www.npr.org/2020/05/31/861962...

I saw this story this morning. I think this speaks to just how accurate Msgr. Benson was in his predictions about the future of religion in Europe when something like this can be passed off as "Teaching a child their place in creation." It's almost Oliver Brand's musings from chapter 3 word for word.


message 47: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 3568 comments Mod
Joseph wrote: "https://www.npr.org/2020/05/31/861962...

I saw this story ..."


Thanks Joseph, that is remarkable. That scientist says to remember the "intimate and enduring connections that we have with the rest of the cosmos."

LOL, what intimate and enduring connection do we have if it's not through God? What intimate connection do I have with the dirt on the surface of Neptune or the gases in that atmosphere of Jupiter? Without the notion of God, the universe is a hostile and incredibly dangerous place which at any moment can destroy the entire planet. The rest of the cosmos is a caustic place for all human life.

But the secular have to find a means to connect. Otherwise they are just random atoms placed together by chance. Unfortunately they are blind to the notion that God exists.


message 48: by Gerri (new)

Gerri Bauer (gerribauer) | 142 comments I'm really enjoying this book but at the same time finding it scary in a sad way. It's prophetic, as has been noted in the comments already. At times, I forget it was written in 1907 and not in more modern times. (Except for the volors being hard to visualize.) I cringed at a reference to "ministers of euthanasia" and can almost feel the coldness and sterility of the physical setting. Despite some narrative clunkiness, Benson does an excellent job conveying the soul-lessness of society.

I questioned how, even in a rational, materialistic society, a son could be so suspicious of his elderly mother's religious longings as Oliver is. He notices and questions even her smallest, most involuntary reaction. Mabel shows more warmth toward his mother but it's a patronizing warmth. Why are they so afraid of religion, specifically Catholicism, despite their self-confidence in their way of life? I hope an answer will unfold in chapters ahead. Also looking forward to how Benson develops the role of Felsenburgh, who already seems to be a figure on which Oliver and possibly others are projecting unvoiced and possibly unrealized wishes for a messiah.

I, too, also bookmarked the section on contemplative prayer. It's poetic.


message 49: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1281 comments Mod
Gerri wrote: "Why are they so afraid of religion, specifically Catholicism, despite their self-confidence in their way of life?"

I think it would be very embarrassing for Oliver if it became known his own mother is a believer.

On a deeper level, I wonder if it is just a projection of self-confidence.


message 50: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 139 comments Geri, I find this kind of thing talking to our less religious contemporaries. They reject the idea of sin and at the same time it seems to terrify them. I think there's an unconscious awareness of the reality of it and the materialistic mind has trouble comprehending that and so it reacts strongly.


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