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Turn Coat (The Dresden Files, #11)
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Book 11: TURN COAT (Spoilers Allowed)

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Berkley Publishing Group (berkleypub) | 37 comments Mod
Warden Morgan and Harry have never been friends - but now Morgan has been accused of murder, and he wants Harry to clear his name. Let's talk TURN COAT! Spoilers through SKIN GAME are permissible, so new readers beware.


message 2: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments We discover towards the end that Anastasia never truly loved Harry since he was unprotected from vampires by mutual true love. However, Karrin Murphy kissed his forehead and lips, declaring that she loved him, and he did likewise, so why didn't that provide him with protection? Love doesn't have to be romantic love with PIV sex to be true love; that's an extremely narrow viewpoint. I thought Karrin did that specifically to protect Harry before he went out to battle vampires. She didn't WANT to get into that territory, but he needed the shielding. Why didn't it work?


message 3: by Caryl (new) - added it

Caryl Huffstetler | 156 comments There is no clear explanation in canon. The only thing I can infer is that because the White Court, for the most part, feed through sex some form of sexual expression of the 'true love' is required or else an act of self-sacrifice such as Thomas and Justine demonstrated.

If you remember, Justine was willing to give her life to save Thomas through a fatal feeding and Thomas risked his life by refusing to take everything from her, which could have been fatal in itself.

Murphy's kiss might have expressed a true and abiding love/friendship but it wasn't sacrificial or sexual. I believe it was meant as an act of reassurance more than anything else anyway.

But I'm not the author. So this is just a best guess based on reading between the lines.


Paulum Mortis | 93 comments “Bill was always polite to me. He saw me do something scary once.”
That was definitely a reference to the ghoul assassination in New Mexico.

Familial or non-romantic love wouldn’t protect against a vampire’s kiss. Think of it from the demon’s perspective. Whites are like phobophages, only instead of scaring the bejesus out of someone and consuming the fear, they do it with the energy raised by… other activities. It isn’t love that protects really, so much as lustiness generated for the “right reasons” between two people who are treating it as more than a simple physical exercise.

Although an adult who’s remaining chaste before marriage might have some protection, making me wonder if Forthill could shrug off Madeline Raith…

And having just reached the Vince Graver scene, I just thought of something odd… do you guys think Molly is still a unicorn? In the current year I mean.


message 5: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Paulum Mortis wrote: "“Bill was always polite to me. He saw me do something scary once.”
That was definitely a reference to the ghoul assassination in New Mexico.

Familial or non-romantic love wouldn’t protect against a vampire’s kiss. … It isn’t love that protects really, so much as lustiness generated for the “right reasons” between two people who are treating it as more than a simple physical exercise."


No, it IS Love, not Lust that protects. It is because it is love, not lust. Molly is the Winter Lady, so she must be a virgin. Not a unicorn. As I forget who said in which book, virgins are not rare. There are always new children.


message 6: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Caryl wrote: "There is no clear explanation in canon. The only thing I can infer is that because the White Court, for the most part, feed through sex some form of sexual expression of the 'true love' is required..."

it's explained as not love but the expression of ultimate sacrifice for that love that's dangerous. Justine loves Thomas, but aside from that near-fatal experience, they can touch and feed without problems. After GS, we find that Justine is having meaningless sex until she's edible again, but I doubt she loves Thomas any less during those sessions.

Murphy loves Harry, but there was no sacrifice at that scene, and their life force is not mingled enough at that point. I guess it's mindled a little, but for a long and strong protection like the one Susan gave Harry, there has to be something really intense involved.


message 7: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Wordwizard wrote: "Paulum Mortis wrote: "“Bill was always polite to me. He saw me do something scary once.”
That was definitely a reference to the ghoul assassination in New Mexico.

Familial or non-romantic love wou..."


In the short story Heorot, Gard claims that virgins were always rare. new children are pretty common, and hopefully they remain unmolested until puberty at least (youngest mother in the world was 9 years old!!!) - but I guess for the point of breeding, you need someone who has already started menstrating. In this day and age the age of sexual puberty has really gone down (presumably because of synthetic hormones from plastic in the water and food supply). In the past, a girl would be 15-16 years old before she's ready, and some cultures liked to marry them younger than that. Add the fact that hormones mean when a teenager is ready, they start looking for a partner almost immediately - and you see why JB thinks there weren't a lot of virgins at the right age around in the past.
I'm not sure about the last point, though - the cultures would frown upon unmarried sex, and most kids will try at least to wait.
Of course - it's a short wait in a culture that marries off people at 13, but still - maybe a bit more virgins than that...

Grendelkin's best bet is to aim for fresh brides - if a girl is still a virgin, that's the last possible moment she could be while still be sexually ready.


message 8: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments rereading this book - now I notice all the hints along the book to the identity of the traitor. It's weird seeing it, and also it gives us some people cleared of being Black Council - or at least less suspicious because they were targeted too by the same traitor.
It's weird, though - Rashid is starting to look suspicious suddenly...

BTW - for those with the Rashid is Harry from the future theory - this book disproves it completely - unless he's putting on an act, Rashid is genuinely surprised when he sees Harry at Deamonsreach.


message 9: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments The examples given of WC vamps being burned were a wedding ring and a rose, weren’t they? Way back in, I don’t know, White Night maybe? It seems the only love that protects is romantic in nature; otherwise, every person who loved their mom and was loved by their mom would be protected.


message 10: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments Re the Harry is Rashid theory: Harry would have to suddenly become a Middle-Eastern Muslim who is not only taller but has a different set of facial scars. And who went back in time centuries. giving other wizards time to know him, and to get enough seniority to get onto the Senior Council. I agree Rashid, being the only one not surprised in the big reveal, looks suspicious, but he can also see the future (in various options) with that metallic eye of his. (It looks like the eye is involved, anyway.) A useful feature for a Gatekeeper, if he could see which area is about to be breached and send reinforcements before it happens. He’s also been too helpful, I think, to be another traitor. There have been several instances where he could have f*ked Harry up royally by simply voting with the Merlin. Of course, he could just be playing the long game, getting Harry beefed up for his leading role as the Outsiders’ buddy, but I don’t think so.


message 11: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments I don’t think being a virgin is required to become a Lady. There are strong hints that Lily was assaulted by Slate more than once. I think there are hints Sarissa hasn’t escaped unscathed either, although I haven’t re-read Cold Days yet. I think it’s more a case of you take on the mantle, you take on the role. Molly might actually be: she was a virgin when she became an apprentice and Harry told her to not experiment because it was going to be too dangerous. She seems too knowing though, especially in subsequent stories. Of course you could say that about Carlos too.


message 12: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Yasmin wrote: "Caryl wrote: "There is no clear explanation in canon. The only thing I can infer is that because the White Court, for the most part, feed through sex some form of sexual expression of the 'true love' is required..."

it's explained as not love but the expression of ultimate sacrifice for that love that's dangerous. Justine loves Thomas, but aside from that near-fatal experience, they can touch and feed without problems."


That's incorrect. When Justine and Thomas meet at that club, she has to wear a rubber suit so he can embrace her. He has sustained slight burns from her when they were less than perfectly careful.


message 13: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Yasmin wrote: "In the short story Heorot, Gard claims that virgins were always rare.."

That's not all Gard said. She said, " … But even if they were ten times as rare in the modern age, there would still be more virgins to choose from than at any other point in history. There are so many people now."


message 14: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Lillicat wrote: "The examples given of WC vamps being burned were a wedding ring and a rose, weren’t they? Way back in, I don’t know, White Night maybe? It seems the only love that protects is romantic in nature; otherwise, every person who loved their mom and was loved by their mom would be protected."

Thomas, when he's explaining how it works, defines Love in a paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 which has nothing to do with sex.
New International Version (NIV).
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Not every mother is self-sacrificial, and the prevalence of old age "Homes" shows that not every child is willing to do for their mother what she once did for that child. In fact, that kind of love seems indeed rare. The heatwave of 2003 that hit Europe hit France especially hard, especially old people. It seems that a huge number of families went on vacation to somewhere cooler by the ocean, leaving Grandmama behind at home by herself where she died alone.


message 15: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments Wordwizard wrote: "Lillicat wrote: "The examples given of WC vamps being burned were a wedding ring and a rose, weren’t they? Way back in, I don’t know, White Night maybe? It seems the only love that protects is roma..."

Hmm. You could be right. I was having trouble resolving Thomas’ quote as it relates to just romantic love; especially since he also said Love killed the dinosaurs, because the mammals were willing to kill and die for their offspring. I guess if there’s a self-sacrifice aspect to it, those wedding rings and rose must have belonged to two people who did more than merely truly love each other. That would leave pretty much everyone vulnerable, I guess; it’s not like those sorts of opportunities would be common.


message 16: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Lillicat wrote: "Hmm. You could be right. I was having trouble resolving Thomas’ quote as it relates to just romantic love; especially since he also said Love killed the dinosaurs, because the mammals were willing to kill and die for their offspring. I guess if there’s a self-sacrifice aspect to it, those wedding rings and rose must have belonged to two people who did more than merely truly love each other. That would leave pretty much everyone vulnerable, I guess; it’s not like those sorts of opportunities would be common. "

I think you're being pessimistic. True love may not be as common as we might like, but neither is it THAT rare. Delaware, New Jersey, and just now Pennsylvania have ended child marriage, with Minnesota legislation (hopefully) awaiting the governor's signature, which will improve the odds.


message 17: by Caryl (new) - added it

Caryl Huffstetler | 156 comments Lillicat wrote: "The examples given of WC vamps being burned were a wedding ring and a rose, weren’t they? Way back in, I don’t know, White Night maybe? It seems the only love that protects is romantic in nature; o..."

Spot on


message 18: by Caryl (new) - added it

Caryl Huffstetler | 156 comments Lillicat wrote: "Re the Harry is Rashid theory: Harry would have to suddenly become a Middle-Eastern Muslim who is not only taller but has a different set of facial scars. And who went back in time centuries. givin..."

Perhaps Rashid is shaping His successor. Could Harry be the next Gatekeeper?


message 19: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments Wordwizard wrote: "Lillicat wrote: "Hmm. You could be right. I was having trouble resolving Thomas’ quote as it relates to just romantic love; especially since he also said Love killed the dinosaurs, because the mamm..."

But if it requires mutual self sacrifice in addition to true love, then that would hardly ever happen. I’ve certainly never been in a situation where I needed to risk my life for anything. Other than highway driving, I suppose. ;-)


message 20: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Lillicat wrote: "But if it requires mutual self sacrifice in addition to true love, then that would hardly ever happen. I’ve certainly never been in a situation where I needed to risk my life for anything. Other than highway driving, I suppose. ;-) "

IIRC when Thomas was explaining it to Harry, he did NOT say that self-sacrifice was required.


message 21: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Caryl wrote: "Lillicat wrote: "Re the Harry is Rashid theory: Harry would have to suddenly become a Middle-Eastern Muslim who is not only taller but has a different set of facial scars. And who went back in time..."

Harry is supposed to be something big against the Outsiders - one has to wonder where Margaret got the idea of a Star Child in the 1st place.
He is definitely shaping Harry to do something, but whether to get the Gatekeeping job permanently or burn out and die at the end of the big battle - I'm not sure. Maybe he's trying to move Harry from the latter to the former option.
After the skinwalker scratched Harry's face, there was a moment I thought he would end up with the same kind of artificial eye, but his eye survived...

anyway - Rashid is not future Harry.


message 22: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Wordwizard wrote: "Yasmin wrote: "In the short story Heorot, Gard claims that virgins were always rare.."

That's not all Gard said. She said, " … But even if they were ten times as rare in the modern age, there woul..."


say you have a village with 100 people and with 10 girls at the right age and about the same amount of boys - hanky panky ensues and only 1 is a virgin - the monster has to kidnap that specific girl.
Now fast forward to modern time - 8 miliard peple on the planet, that 1 precent is 80 million girls - huge number compared to that.
That's what Gard ment - the precentage hasn't changed - it's just that there are more people at the same area than the middle ages.


message 23: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Wordwizard wrote: "Lillicat wrote: "But if it requires mutual self sacrifice in addition to true love, then that would hardly ever happen. I’ve certainly never been in a situation where I needed to risk my life for a..."

the white court claim true love is rare, but it would be pretty rare to get an object touched by true love - a wedding ring should do it, but other objects probably aren't involved in it - or the clothes that justine and thomas wear would hurt them too. Skin to skin is dangerous because they love each other, and they use those clothes to protect the other from themselves - so true love expression - the scarf Justine made Thomas did hurt him in Small Favours.

What makes the difference? I don't know - I guess it's a matter of degrees - a certain object could belong to a couple, but it wouldn't be unique to them, or it wouldn't be imbued with that type of energy.
Most people may be very fond of each other, but I guess true love is rare too - and the whites would encourage cheating to make sure that won't last...
I think there has to be some sort of trigger of the passing of energy to activate something or someone to be toxic to the whites. - maybe not actually killing yourself for your true love, but pretty close.


message 24: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments Yasmin What makes the difference? I don't know - I guess it's a matter of degrees - a certain object could belong to a couple, but it wouldn't be unique to them, or it wouldn't be imbued with that type of energy.
Most people may be very fond of each other, but I guess true love is rare too - and the whites would encourage cheating to make sure that won't last...
I think there has to be some sort of trigger of the passing of energy to activate something or someone to be toxic to the whites. - maybe not actually killing yourself for your true love, but pretty close"


Thanks for putting this in a clearer fashion than I’ve managed. :-)


message 25: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Regarding Molly's virginity - she had a boyfriend - the guy she redecorated his mind in anger - my money's on not virgin, even though Harry made her quit sex for as long as she was his apprentice.
Lily definitely wasnt a virgin - poor girl.
I was sort of surprised about that demand because of the way Maeve was acting - all sexual and seducing - all that libido and not being able to have sex?! But being the Lady makes sense - maiden, mother, crone - the maiden can't be a mother.

Of course, it could be the whole translation issue like what got jesus's mother - the hebrew word Alma means young woman, not a virgin. That particular prophecy was mistranslated, and was a slightly later addition to biblical canon. The problem with the same assumption about the youngest of the trio is that too many people believe she should be a virgin, so she has to be...
In True Blood there is a young vampire that discover that her whole body regenerates every night - including her hymen... ouch...


message 26: by Lillicat (new)

Lillicat | 57 comments End of PG, she says she’s technically a virgin, and Harry tells her to stay that way until she’s more grounded. So we don’t actually know if she still is, although the fact she dates and is quite good at the come-hither by the time she goes out to get info from Graver would seem to indicate maybe she isn’t. The savagery of the mantle in protecting itself (Cold Case), gives a sort of retrospective chill to that scene in Summer Knight when Maeve offers to have sex with Harry herself.


Meryl | 25 comments Yasmin wrote: "rereading this book - now I notice all the hints along the book to the identity of the traitor. It's weird seeing it, and also it gives us some people cleared of being Black Council - or at least l..."
Rashid is Harry is a thing for some people? I guess if I hadn't read Cold Days yet I might be tempted by a storyline like that.


message 28: by Steven (new)

Steven Spicer (terriertribe) | 199 comments In message 23, Yasmin wrote: "... What makes the difference? I don't know - I guess it's a matter of degrees - a certain object could belong to a couple, but it wouldn't be unique to them, or it wouldn't be imbued with that type of energy...."

I agree. It seems to me that the common thread among the objects that also burn the White Court is that they all have an extreme significance to both of the protected parties. I think of the aforementioned wedding ring and rose. I suspect that over time, for instance, Justine's rubber catsuit might itself start to burn Thomas, if it comes to strongly enough symbolize (to them) their condition.

To put a little jazz spin on it: "It ain't got that sting, if it ain't got that zing."


Paulum Mortis | 93 comments Steven wrote: "…objects that burn the White Court … all have an extreme significance to both of the protected parties. […]over time, for instance, Justine's rubber catsuit might itself start to burn Thomas, if it comes to strongly enough symbolize (to them) their condition..."

Share a hug or a “Hi-5” with a friend and you swap a little bit of soul. When that touch is significant in the right way it becomes anathema to Whites. And a sweetheart’s rose or wedding ring does not need to be in contact with the couple who gave it significance…

Therefore, attacking Château Raith in Justine’s rubber catsuit—should it become imbued with such protection—would be a lot like assaulting a faerie fortress in full plate mail. Only sluttier and way more awesome. Full-body protection offering +5 against White Court vampires…

There is a trope for that I think:
(view spoiler)
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...


message 30: by Steven (new)

Steven Spicer (terriertribe) | 199 comments Paulum Mortis wrote: a bunch of really cool stuff.

Only sluttier and way more awesome indeed. Wish I'd thought of that. Well-said.


message 31: by Steven (last edited May 24, 2020 05:56PM) (new)

Steven Spicer (terriertribe) | 199 comments In Turn Coat page 48 (Kindle), we see: Murphy nodded, frowning at the road ahead of her. "The reason treachery is so reviled," she said in a careful tone of voice, "is because it usually comes from someone you didn't think could possibly do such a thing."

Not meaning to spread unwarranted suspicion, but ...

page 118 "... For whatever reason, Chandler was almost always to be found working near the Senior Council. If anyone would know the scuttlebutt, he would."

Is JB foreshadowing the long game here, or just jerking us around with a misleading off-hand remark? Or have I simply reached a Morgan-like level of suspicion? I hope I'm barking up the wrong tree; if Steed is active Black Council, or a deep-cover mole, or even just an unwitting tool of someone other than Peabody, that is going to be a major bummer, and Butcher better have a really good back story ready to explain.


message 32: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments Steven wrote: "In Turn Coat page 48 (Kindle), we see: Murphy nodded, frowning at the road ahead of her. "The reason treachery is so reviled," she said in a careful tone of voice, "is because it usually comes from..."

He's one of the old guard, worked with Luccio a long time, is very capable, and is friendly toward Harry...
definite candidate...


message 33: by David (new)

David Kanevsky | 2 comments Yasmin Mazur wrote: He's one of the old guard, working with new show long time

I think he's actually on the younger side, maybe a little older than Dresden, but I'm not sure.


message 34: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments David wrote: "Yasmin Mazur wrote: He's one of the old guard, working with new show long time

I think he's actually on the younger side, maybe a little older than Dresden, but I'm not sure."


He's Luccio's trusted man - I didn't get the impression he's particularly young - and I question the wizdom of putting someone younger than Harry as a single guard in the never-never.
Mostly it's Harry's musing about him in Changes that make me think he's Old Guard - would Luccio trust him like that if he's one of the young ones?


message 35: by Steven (new)

Steven Spicer (terriertribe) | 199 comments Yasmin wrote: "... would Luccio trust him like that if he's one of the young ones?"

Ahem. Ramirez?

Given the apparent mortality rate against the Red Court, many younger Wardens have gained experience and been given (forced into?) positions of authority and responsibility well ahead of their age.

Even so, I don't think Chandler is one of the younger Wardens, although he may have been considered one before the War forced the White Council to resort to conscription.


message 36: by Paulum Mortis (last edited May 31, 2020 11:20AM) (new) - added it

Paulum Mortis | 93 comments Is Dresden’s scar from the Naagloshii over his right eye?

https://youtu.be/x8ZUvrIQWuY … I’d not seen this SKIN GAME trailer before (was in today’s e-mail,) and it has the cut over the right. Also, whoever acted Murphy and Michael were great.

---

Addendum: Chapter 49 “…running down through my right eyebrow, skipping my eye, and continuing for an inch or so on my cheekbone”


message 37: by Steven (new)

Steven Spicer (terriertribe) | 199 comments Okay, this may be late in the game, read-along-wise, but it just now occurred to me to ask.

There's a recurring scene where Harry returns to find Morgan and Molly and Mouse (and eventually Luccio) locked in a multi-way standoff with swords and guns and teeth. At one point Harry comes in, sees them, calmly gets a drink from the fridge and sits down to consider what he's seeing. Did anyone else find this hilarious? I have to admit I get the giggles just thinking about it.


message 38: by Wordwizard (new)

Wordwizard (wordwizardw) | 107 comments Steven wrote: "There's a recurring scene where Harry returns to find Morgan and Molly and Mouse (and eventually Luccio) locked in a multi-way standoff with swords and guns and teeth. At one point Harry comes in, sees them, calmly gets a drink from the fridge and sits down to consider what he's seeing. Did anyone else find this hilarious?"

Yes, it's funny. Obviously, Mouse has things under control, so Harry can take his time while everyone else suffers a little bit longer for their bad behavior. That Mouse can handle two, and then THREE other violently insane people single-pawedly so no one gets hurt is hilarious.


message 39: by Yasmin (new)

Yasmin Mazur | 196 comments That is a good scene, and so is the following one with mouse acting hurt from the bullet - that dog can act pretty good... poor Molly - although i wonder how a Sensitive like her miss thr fact he's not really in pain...
Maybe it did hurt to be shot - at least a little - but Mouse doesnt usually let pains like that distract him.


message 40: by Caryl (new) - added it

Caryl Huffstetler | 156 comments Mouse was in pain but he was milking it for effect and a 'teachable moment'. ;-)


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