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Intersectional Feminism > JK Rowling's Transphobia

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message 1: by Marina (last edited Jan 07, 2020 09:21AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments I can't find a thread about this.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/12/19...

I had no illusions after the previous retweets but it's still disappointing. I'm sad for the trans people who used to consider Hogwarts their home.

edit: The premise of this thread is that transphobia exists and it's bad, and that trans people don't deserve to be misgendered (especially deliberately). If you want to question this premise, do it elsewhere.


message 2: by Siobhán (new)

Siobhán (hoverwombat) | 11 comments Repeat after me, JK: Trans rights are human rights


message 3: by Merve (new)

Merve Yazicioglu | 51 comments I stopped using Twitter, so thanks for sharing it because I wouldn't have seen it otherwise. It is upsetting news but Hogwarts and Harry Potter world cannot be controlled by its author anymore. I appreciate the author's genius imagination and skills, however, the text does not belong to the author after it is shared. I know it is a little bit off-topic but "The Death of the Author" explains this very well. By that I mean J.K Rowling's tweets and intentions are not related to the Harry Potter books.

After the HP series and its films ended, she went crazy on twitter trying to be relatable but she is taking it too far now. To me, there are no arguments being made about her opinions at all. This is almost the same as her trying to claim Dumbeldore was gay. Of course, he can well be and there might be some references in the Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts books. But an author cannot start claiming things about the books as if they are the "only" truth. After those twitter spams, she lost the credibility in my eyes. As a very influential female author and the creator of the wizarding world, this is upsetting to see.

Perhaps, she was trying to include every race, gender, and sex in the creation of Harry Potter, but sometimes her actual opinions come out in her tweets. Would I love that Hermione is British Caribbean/African and Dumbeldore is gay? Absolutely yes. On the other hand, it feels like she is forcing herself to stay relevant instead of being an open-minded equality supporter. Sorry for my very long response but it is a very disturbing subject that happens with many genuine writers whom we love to read their books. On that note, art should be separated from its creators' subjective opinions. I hope no one's childhood-adulthood dreams are crushed by this news.


message 4: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Yeah, I know about "death of author". Some people really enjoyed JK Rowling's extra content for Pottermore and the like. Many characters' hogwarts houses are only known from Pottermore, tweets and interviews.

This doesn't mean you're not allowed to enjoy HP. but due to the previous TERF retweets many have already decided not to support JKR financially. Now hopefully way more people will realize how problematic she is.


message 5: by Florian (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Would you mind to explain how her words are transphobian? I'm having difficulties to understand what she meant.


message 6: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments her words are the equivalent of "i'm not transphobic but..."

she's pretending that her support of that woman is a feminist act. by "sex is real" she means trans women are male.

be sure to read the whole article. she's been rt'ing/liking transphobic stuff for a long time, but this is the first time she's been so open about this.


message 7: by Florian (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Yes, I read she has followed transphobic people, some people follow Trump on Twitter and they don't support him. So, to me it was not enough to say she was transphobic. However, it seems many of her actions that were reported are supporting transphobia.

Thanks for explaining "sex is real", that is exactly the part that confused me.
What surprises me how someone could behave like that while the person has acquaintanceships or friendships with activists who support trans people.


message 8: by Ashley (new)

Ashley | 194 comments Camelia Rose wrote: "So it's all because she said "But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?" I don't know about Maya Forstater, but biological sex does exist, right? You can change into another s..."

This is where my confusion comes in as well. I understand gender identity, but sex and gender are different. I also understand the underlying issue of trans rights, but where do we draw the line of distinction between gender identity and biological sex?

This is also just my nativity and lack of understanding/education on transpeople. I've always viewed gender identification as one thing and biological sex as another. Yes, you can surgically alter a lot of your body to imitate the sex that best fits your gender identity, but there's only so much you can do. There will always be a difference biologically (at least for where we are now and where our technology is likely to be in the relative future)


message 9: by Florian (last edited Dec 20, 2019 03:05PM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments I really don’t understand why people are afraid to use the right pronouns. It baffles me.

I was wondering whether they are really afraid or it's dogmatism.
You know, it's against their vision of the world etc... Maybe it should start by accepting the world is different (as long as nobody is hurt and no future needs are hindered etc...). But we aren't that good in that (yet) I believe.

Instructive discussion, thanks for sharing those informations 👍


message 10: by Marina (last edited Dec 20, 2019 04:23PM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Florian wrote: "Yes, I read she has followed transphobic people, some people follow Trump on Twitter and they don't support him. So, to me it was not enough to say she was transphobic. However, it seems many of he..."
Most anti-Trump people who follow him also follow leftist politicians that oppose him. JKR has liked several transphobic tweets and never showed any support for trans people (she thinks she did that now, but this was ehhh lukewarm at best - https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/sta...).

Anyway, when the anatomy is actually relevant, the more respectful terms are "assigned female at birth" (or male obv), or referring to specific body parts like vagina, uterus, testicles or whatever. And if you're not a doctor and aren't sleeping with someone, it's really none of your business. Don't go out of your way to point out that a trans woman is "biologically male". This is disrespectful and really contributes nothing.
The whole medical science is cis-centered. The medical community still largely equates "woman" with "born with a vagina". If you really accept that trans women are women, that's not how it should be.


message 11: by Marina (last edited Dec 21, 2019 09:04AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments You'd think JK Rowling would understand how frustrating it is to be a woman and have to pretend you're a man...

@Keith - saying this limits women's freedom of speech implies only cis women are women. TERF's focus on "biological sex" but they don't actually believe trans women are women.

BTW, people are criticising Emma Watson for not denouncing JKR's outdated views.


message 12: by Florian (last edited Dec 21, 2019 10:18AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Marina wrote: "You'd think JK Rowling would understand how frustrating it is to be a woman and have to pretend you're a man...

@Keith - saying this limits women's freedom of speech implies only cis women are wom..."


Well... denouncing is a hard thing to do, we never know about the consequences. A friend recently told me it was super exhausting and risky, that's why most people say nothing.
Also, when we voice we never know whether we'll get back up and voicing support (not support in secret) so I may understand why Watson says nothing.

I agree with you Marina regarding what you say. We need to be more aware! Still I don't understand why people exclude others because of differences. I would never agree with such narrow-minded thought "I impose my vision to you and you must follow what I believe." gosh.... this is so toxic and does not help to include and gather people to solve important issues.

Evgeny wrote: "Marina, hi. That you dug into JK Rowling. That she personally did you a bad thing. That's her opinion. She's a great writer. Stop humiliating her with your stupid antics. You'd think each of you would go out on the main streets and rally for transgender people. You don't teach people to be understanding transgender. Because for the most part, they're not perceived as normal people."

Try to be kind Evgeny, everyone has the right to express their opinions while not being aggressive to anyone. No need to attack Marina because she does not like what JK Rowling said.
"**** Normality" :p norms suck when they suppress people, force them to hide and prevent them to be fully who they are or want to be while they do not harm to anyone ;)


message 13: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Why should trans people treat this as a mere difference in opinion?

Also, JK Rowling's literary talent has nothing to do with this. Countless HP fans are devastated now and have every right to be.

Yes denouncing is hard, but being feminist is also hard! Picking books by trans authors means nothing if Emma takes advantage of her privilege and ignores transphobia.


message 14: by Florian (last edited Dec 21, 2019 03:55PM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Marina wrote: "Why should trans people treat this as a mere difference in opinion?

Also, JK Rowling's literary talent has nothing to do with this. Countless HP fans are devastated now and have every right to be...."


I understand your frustration. Emma has picked feminist books written by so many people including Kai Cheng Thom (by the way, wonderful discovery, I love her books so much!).

We all take advantage of our privileges, sometimes on purpose sometimes it's unconscious.

That being, I read somewhere Emma was supporting (and she still supports) transgender people. One of her friend is transgender, she visited transgender children and she often talks about the necessity to include everyone.
I don't know her but I tend to think she might prefer to be kind to people, to show them love and support rather than pointing out people who make mistakes. Some people are good at denouncing other are good at caring and supporting. Being good at both is extremely rare. For sure we need those two types of people and Watson seems to be great at supporting and caring. Let's not ask too much from her about that.

Then, privileges is another topic. I have judged about that (wrongly), it's up to people to make their own choice and to sacrifice confort and privileges in other words to not be silent.
Like many people here, I have voiced against what's unfair (the issue is still a thing), because of that I'm suffering emotionally and my mental health is altered those days. I decided to put my confort aside, to put my privileges aside, and to put (probably) the beginning of my professional life at risk as well because I tried to denounce oppression. I'd like other to voice but it's so easy to be crushed down.
Here, we talk about public persons and it's somehow more intense in their cases because everyone look at them.


message 15: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Yes, I know plenty of trans people who are disappointed by JKR.
As for Emma Watson, the thing is that by not distancing herself from JKR she normalizes transphobia.


message 16: by Marina (last edited Dec 21, 2019 08:23PM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-phobia

Also, treating cis as default is transphobic.
even if we accept that biologically people are male/female/intersex, it's not accurate to say that disease X is more common in women, or men are at a higher risk of Y.

and lol English is already much more flexible than most other widespread languages like Spanish, Russian, German


message 17: by Florian (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Evgeny, would you mind to use "you" in all of your questions please? :) (difficult exercise everyone struggle with I suppose).

It might be perceived as judgment. Also, try to be kinder in your words otherwise I'm afraid everyone will stand the ground etc...

Not quite sure about what you meant by Evgeny wrote: There are many people in the world who treat transgender people with hatred. That's a fact you'll have to accept. There are people who support them, too.

What do you mean by the verb "accept"? Do you mean acknowledge the truth or do you mean accept people hate other people and we should say nothing about that?

I fully agree, we should accept the truth and not to try to deny it but I don't believe we should remain silent whenever we witness hate, discrimination or oppression. Personally, I'm not going to accept oppression, toxicity or anything that has the purpose to harm someone who just want to be itself, herself, himself while not harming anyone. Ok, it often implies to set ourselves in trouble because... oppression has most of the power.


message 18: by Florian (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments You seem to be a very sad and pessimistic person Evgeny. I'm sad for you. Good luck and bye.


message 19: by Marina (last edited Dec 22, 2019 06:21AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments (In Russian floor and gender/sex are the same word :D So Evgeny meant gender confirmation)
I'm not gossiping lol, let alone inciting hatred. JKR has stated her views herself. And transphobe is not an insult.

Trans people do not transition to "run away from themselves". They make changes to reflect who they really are, and/or to lessen casual misgendering. In many countries they're required to have surgery in order to change their legal name/gender, even if they don't want surgery.


message 20: by Florian (last edited Dec 23, 2019 01:36AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments @Camelia: just like you said it, it's about the context, the fact people saw "likes" from JK Rowling to transphobian people and this tweet make them think JK Rowling is having a transphobic behavior. And I say behaviour rather than saying "she is". We can't help that because we aren't thinking with facts only or with emotion only. Also there is the context of country and everything that could influence someone's mind because of where we are.

I agree with your point about diseases X. I agree with both of you I guess. I suppose what Marina meant was Males, Females and intersex and not men, women and intersex. There is some mix between words referring to gender used for a context about sex.

I believe everyone has stated her, his, its point of view about that situation and that's good because you all brought information but no need to fight for someone we don't really know. JK Rowling wrote an amazing series of books and she has so many fan whether she has transphobian behavior or not does not change that.
In that situation I'm tempted to say it is essential to split the situations or the behavior. Her behavior regarding transgender people and the fact she is a great writer are two different points correct?

I understand many people are disappointed. Now let's be more pragmatic and ask ourselves those questions:
Do we like JK Rowling's work because it's good or do we like the author?

What I try to mean is, I might like someone's action and I might not like the person itself or other actions. Do we know them? No. Do they (personally) owe us something? No.

It's like Watson, yes she does great things, yes she does not so great things. We, people, are not all good or all bad. Just like a friend from OSS told me a year ago during a private discussion "sometime there is a cult of personality", and we take heart in things because of that while a perfect random human or an acquaintance would not generate such emotional expression in us.

Here we got a few facts, we express our thoughts about it and express our feelings but I'm afraid it's becoming too emotionally centered. And this unbalanced make our critical thinking fading ;)

Just a thought.


message 21: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 426 comments Marina wrote: "BTW, people are criticising Emma Watson for not denouncing JKR's outdated views."

I don't see a duty for Emma to do this?
It's not like she and JKR are connected beyond Emma having played a character from her books, is it?


I'm not entirely sure where to stand on the issue, tbh.
Forstater wrote a pretty good piece about the issues she has with changes in gender laws, and I think some of those concerns, like how do we ensure that safe spaces for women can keep existing, without legally becoming forced to accept trans-women that haven't transitioned?

However, I don't quite understand why she chose to try and weaponize her contract not being renewed to push a "freedom of beliefe" case against her former employer instead of having the courts clear the issue if her contract didn't get renewed for her online conversations and if this was possibly against employment laws.
I.e. the question in as how far she could have legally binding expectations to have her contract renewed and in how far an employer is in a legal position then to use an employee's private life against them.


message 22: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1070 comments Mod
Gerd wrote: " ".e. the question in as how far she could have legally binding expectations to have her contract renewed and in how far an employer is in a legal position then to use an employee's private life against them."

Someone probably put a bug in her head about how she could sue the company or shame them. People are stupid when their emotions flare.

On another note: I want to review this line that really spoke to me. It's kinda of a long rambling reflection from a cis woman that is more of an "Ah-ha" moment than adding anything to this discussion. So feel free to skip.

---------------------------

As a cis women, feminism to me is going to be biased toward what I know and live until I know better about things outside of my perspective. And what I know and what I have been learning about for the past 3+ years is how much historic feminism had and still has to fight for seats at the table. Biological woman - white, black, Asian, Native, etc, are still not paid as much. Intersectionality and the multi facets that affect our life. Cultural Appropriation and decolonization. We are still fighting against MRAs, for MeToo and against Rape Culture, Period stuff, etc etc etc.

This is the proverbial ground that I am defending for women; but what I am also doing - I'm noticing- is also acting like a gatekeeper. A "bouncer" of who or what I deem to be feminists and if they are allowed into this community that I feel a part of.

I read Fierce Femms, understood the stories put forward. But found myself sympathizing more on Thom's rapes than on her experience as being trans. Again, my knowledge is on the MeToo movement, I only have a cursory understanding of the trans-community or life.

It's akin to watching Star Wars and knowing that Jedi and Sith have lightsabers, but only when you dive into the lore and understand it better do you understand the symbolism of blue, green, and yellow lightsabers are different. Knowing this fact doesn't diminish your first impression, but knowing about it can deepen the experience and your understanding of all of the cultural cues.

So Yeah, I skimmed the article and was kinda on the side of JK. Live your life, do your thing, pick a pronoun, but don't kick women out of their jobs.

And then I read this part:
"JK Rowling's tweet offers insights to what trans antagonist rich white cis women think trans women are all about – dressing up and trying to have sex. As if its a perversion, deviance or fetish. Its archaic as much as ignorant. — Bolli Grinchevik

As a cis feminist, I know how to spot an MRA attack and how to confront misogyny. "Women can't be leaders because of their periods", etc, etc.

But this... is... territory that I'm not that aware of. This tweet helped me to see the battles and misconceptions and sexism that the trans community fight against each day. Boil the community down to it's basic tenants and it's not about changing your name or how you dress. A blue lightsaber isn't blue just because it was someone's favorite color....

I may need a few more reminders, a few more viewings as I learn to understand this community more and more. So thank you Marina for bringing this up and showing where cis women are missing their mark.


message 23: by Oscar (new)

Oscar | 21 comments Rowling's support for this woman is baffling to me given how quiet she's been on Twitter, and her one tweet in a long time happens to be for this woman. Her silence on the matter is far more disappointing and disheartening to me than Emma's (Really, should absolutely everyone connected in any slight way to Rowling speak out on the matter?). I can understand if she's approaching the whole thing from a matter of free speech, but that it's this specific woman she's coming out for in defense, when there's so many trans people who've suffered similar or even greater consequences due to speaking out or even for a lot offense just seems to be the tip of a really ugly iceberg. I'm not interested in canceling Rowling or her work, I'd rather hope she hears her trans fans out and understands that she's making a mistake.


message 24: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Camelia Rose wrote: "Marina wrote: "https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-phobia

Also, treating cis as default is transphobic.
even if we accept that biologically people are male/female/intersex, it's not accurate to say th..."

You didn't check the link. In compounds -phobia doesn't mean just fear but also dislike, hatred. This is an old argument that pretty much every homophobe or transphobe has tried to make, and we're sick of it.

Florian is right, I meant that if we accept the premise that people are female/male/intersex, we shouldn't say disease X is more common in women but in females. (But this is still problematic imo, to me this would be just the bare minimum)

As for "they", it has a long history in English, and we already use it when we genuinely don't know someone's gender. And yeah other neopronouns also exist, but they face a lot more backlash and get labelled as artificial.

Gerd wrote: "Marina wrote: "BTW, people are criticising Emma Watson for not denouncing JKR's outdated views."

I don't see a duty for Emma to do this?
It's not like she and JKR are connected beyond Emma having ..."

Why should we make trans women transition just because it makes you more comfortable? You're not the one being forced to have surgeries you don't even want.
This is also another old tired argument that people used to make about gay people. Should a lesbian or bisexual cis woman be accepted into the same shelter as straight women? I hope you see how bigoted this sounds.

You're making the same mistake as JKR. If you say "spaces for women" are needed, and want to keep trans women out of them, you show that you don't believe trans women are women. This is transphobia, sorry.

As for Emma, to me it's kinda like with abortion rights. So many feminists support trans people when the subject comes up, but when you bring up another subject like abortion, they forget all of it and say abortion rights are women's rights. As if supporting trans people is optional. Picking books by trans authors means nothing if she's not ready to show solidarity with trans people. Also, isn't she friends with JKR?


message 25: by Marina (last edited Dec 23, 2019 09:36PM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Emma wrote: "Pam wrote: "Gerd wrote: " ".e. the question in as how far she could have legally binding expectations to have her contract renewed and in how far an employer is in a legal position then to use an e..."
Yeah, the whole point of TERFs is that they claim trans women are men who have "autogynephilia", ie a fetish that makes them aroused at the idea of themselves "becoming" women. They also think trans men are just women with internalized sexism.

@Florian, look up what she wrote about trans women in her novel as Robert.
Also, would you be saying this if she supported a racist ("race realist")? Do you think transphobia is less bad than racism?

Here's a glimpse of how this makes people feel - https://twitter.com/Loonaverse1/statu...


message 26: by Florian (last edited Dec 24, 2019 01:30AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments Marina, I suppose I was not clear.
Every type of oppression is inacceptable.


I am not a huge fan of HP so don't remember what she wrote about trans women. Mind to highlight that point please? :) (the more I learn about feminism the less I like HP which seems in some aspect quite patriarchal).

As for Emma, she is not a knight who must fight every single thing. It's not because she is famous that she has to voice every single time. It's extremely exhausting to fight (to really fight) against one type of oppression, nobody can ask someone to voice every time regardless the energy it costs. It requires so much, it takes so much and it is painful. Emma is a human, just like you and me, she has emotions, she suffers, she cries, she fears, she smiles and laughs. Let's not forget we are human beings and not robot. We don't know how affected she is by that situation and we must not know because it's not our life. She seems to be a quite empathic person who takes heart in things. I know a bit how those people behave, they fear judgment a lot, especially when they are tired because it make them suffer a lot. Maybe she feels betrayed, maybe she just wants to take a break with fame and the related life.

What's in public is different than a real relationship. Being friend in the public sphere means nothing.

Yes, picking books is different. Picking books means influencing many people and raising their awareness while hoping they understand others and support them or at least not hurt them. That's a different strategy and kinder one. Don't be to hard with her, she tries her best like all of us.

I feel what we are discussing here is a symbol created by people because of fame, and a person being seen as a symbol is not a good thing because at one point the person will disappoint us. And the symbol we believed in with break and we'll feel betray.

Merry Christmas everyone!!! 🤶🎄🎉🎁


message 27: by Marina (last edited Dec 24, 2019 05:55AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Can you look at this from trans people's perspective? They live with discrimination and yet it's hard for a cis white feminist (TM) to denounce their oppression?
Nobody is demanding that she denounce every instance of transphobia everywhere. But in this specific case, if you're not explicitly against it, you're complicit.

in the HeForShe campaign she asked men to show their support for feminism. now it's time for her to do the same for trans people.

I wasn't referring to the HP books, there's no trans people there (though in many people's headcanon there are). JKR published a novel under a pseudonym. Look it up yourself, it will take 5 minutes.


message 28: by Jonathan (last edited Dec 29, 2019 08:04AM) (new)

Jonathan Sheen  | 23 comments I'm troubled by the rapid application of what I would call "doctrinaire liberal shobboleths," where we're all called upon to toe a particular line.

In the case of JKR, we're seeing memes saying she doesn't support trans rights, and there's absolutely no evidence of that. We're seeing her called a "TERF," while I've never seen any reason to think she's any variety of radical feminist. We're seeing people take sentences written in plain language, and having people say "This is what she means by that," and then attacking her for what they said.

This strikes me as mob justice, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with it.


message 29: by Chandler (new)

Chandler (hamilreads) | 1 comments What exactly happened can someone inform me? I am new to this group and thread.


message 30: by Mareike (new)

Mareike | 2 comments This article does a good job of explaining why JKR was criticized, I think: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion...

I found these two paragraphs especially interesting:
By using her massive platform to offer her support for Forstater, Rowling is actually expressing her support for the what the courts called an “absolutist … view of sex” that trans women are not women, and promoting the transphobia that got Forstater in trouble in the first place.

There's no drill here; there's no law in the world that is forcing Forstater out of her job for stating that "sex is real." Tayler didn't even rule that Forstater had to call trans women "women," refer to any trans woman as “female” or use appropriate "she/her/hers" pronouns; he said that she could simply choose not to refer to trans women in gendered terms at all. Forstater, though, admitted that she would continue to behave in a way that the law defines as harassing, and which would contribute to a "intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment" — which is why the court ruled that the nonprofit was entitled to not renew her contract.


As for "they" as a singular pronoun, it's actually been used that way since the 14th century: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-h...


message 31: by Florian (last edited Dec 28, 2019 05:55AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments What concern me is "how far her words can influence people?" because to be honest if everyone who would read her would think "she says shit." then I wouldn't care.
But, we seem to be so careful about what someone famous says, just like we have expectation, just like what he, she, they say would influence deeply our life while they maybe should not.
What I try to mean is if someone says shit but is anonymous then it's not seen, not important, not impactful as long as the person is not fanatic, not harassing and don't plan to act in a harmful way. But when it's JK Rowling or anyone famous it's becoming like 😱 so I'm just wondering that this intensity is the result of us giving too much importance to famous people and because of that they have huge power of influence.
Interesting... 🤔 Social and psychological things I suppose.


message 32: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments @Chandler there's a link in the first post.

Camelia Rose wrote: "@Marina I have looked at the wikipedia link you posted. Here is another link and definition:

https://www.britannica.com/science/ph...

"Phobia, an extreme, irrational fear of a specific object o..."

The article is about phobia as an independent noun, not -phobia in compounds, which is what my link was about. Words can have different meanings independently and in compounds, this happens all the time.
BTW Britannica also has a page on discrimination, which mentions transphobia - https://www.britannica.com/topic/disc...

By the bare minimum I didn't mean that the influence of "biological sex" is minimal. I meant that it would be better to use a different term, because culturally male/female are still tied to gender. I've seen the terms androtypical/estrotypical recently.

??? Lots of people use neopronouns, as I said. Support them. Also, how would you feel if people told you to change YOUR pronouns because it inconveniences someone.

I'm not a native speaker of English and I don't feel comfortable using 'they' as my own pronoun, but it's very easy to get used to it for others. And it's absolutely been used as a singular pronoun, see Shakespeare. (it's also used as singular in my example, when you genuinely don't know the gender) There's also no monolith "trans society"; besides, many cis people have worked through their discomfort with singular they.

Both language and biology are more complicated than what we're taught at school.


message 33: by Marina (last edited Dec 28, 2019 09:48AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Jonathan wrote: "I'm troubled by the rapid application of what I would call "doctrinaire liberal shobboleths," where we're all called upon to toe a particular line.

In the case of JKR, we're seeing memes saying sh..."


As for TERF, well but Rowling literally claims it's about "women's rights" (actually cis women's rights).

Yes, she thought that saying "dress how you want and have consensual sex" is enough to show support for trans rights, but there's zero evidence that she's against misgendering trans people or separating prisons and other spaces by sex rather than gender. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. This is not the first time JKR has shown support for transphobes.
People are not obligated to give her the benefit of doubt.

Have you read the links posted here?

@Florian, the issue is that many now refuse to support JKR financially by buying anything new related to the HP-verse. Also, many have said before that HP made them more tolerant, more inclusive etc - it's heartbreraking in this sense. She was applauded when she posted a meme saying "Harry Potter taught us that nobody should live in the closet", and yet she has no idea how the notion of closet is different for trans people. (after you've transitioned socially, nobody needs to know you're trans)


message 34: by Marina (last edited Dec 29, 2019 07:45AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments And your comment "Also, treating cis as default is transphobic." is misleading. Default of women? And what you mean by default? Cis women are the majority of women. Default of something does not equivalent to exclusion of something else. It does not mean trans women not women.

By default I mean statements like "women have a higher risk of disease X", when in reality afab people do. This statement ignores trans men and many non-binary people.

By "largely equates" I mean that 90% of medical texts that are not specifically about transitioning don't acknowledge that trans people exist. I don't mean simply saying "most women have a vagina" but assuming ALL women do. These texts pretend people are neatly divided into women and men, and this aligns with their biology. That's cissexism.

within the trans community these are established facts. Just because people pick their battles doesn't mean they're okay with how things are.


message 35: by Florian (last edited Dec 29, 2019 08:58AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments I hear you Marina. It feels like many felt betrayed, is that right?
I tend to do my best (and I often fail) to dissociate things and people. Maybe it looks cynical but why not applauding and acting by the side of someone when it seems the right thing to do and to not hesitate and to voice our disagreement whenever the very same persons walk on a pathway that seems wrong to us.
Maybe the key is to acknowledge famous voices, to use them whenever they may serve well people and the integrity and the respect of their self (while they are not harming). After all they got their power from people because they support them. So no more support, no more power. It looks so simple but it is so difficult.

Somehow it is often related to internal battle comfort/privileges/being in the group vs making sacrifices/values/risk to refuse a group and to be rejected, to undergo judgment.
Tough fight... :s

What let me speechless is: how can we reject people, being exclusive while we have suffered from that very same thing. Aren't we supposed to know how painful it is? It's looks like the scheme the abused becomes the abusers.


message 36: by Marina (last edited Dec 30, 2019 07:53PM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Yes, people feel betrayed. Many by JKR, others by fellow fans.

OK I found a link about what she wrote as Galbraith https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pk...

And more links https://www.washingtonpost.com/outloo...
https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/1...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/techno...

as for "how can we reject people", are you referring to the fans or to JKR?


message 37: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments lol that's just an abbrreviation like JRRT or GRRM. i don't mean it in a derogatory way.


message 38: by Marina (last edited Dec 31, 2019 08:25AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Why not estrotypical/androtypical?
Anyway nobody is saying that accidentally using the wrong pronoun is transphobic. But it's transphobic to insist "since you're male i'm going to use 'he'!", which is also why the trans community isn't too keen on the words describing "biological" sex.

For a specific example, think of a trans man who got pregnant and wants to give birth. Do you see how being called "female" will just make his dysphoria worse and is a major reason to choose abortion?

Phobia is an independent word and you gave me a link about that.
You can say "I went to this psychologist weekly and got cured from a phobia", and you don't have to explain which phobia it was. The meaning is clear.

Transphobia or homophobia are not phobias in these sense, they're kinds of discrimination. You can mentally replace transphobia with cissexism if it makes more sense this way.


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

Hello there 🙋‍♀️

I'm intrusive may be but I can tell sometimes it's just to make buzz upon someone, like Emma's sentimental life is being used to obtain more people watching the movies...

While some may take some times to make their own introspection facing the mirror, of what they truly are being human, also having "bad" behavior or non coherent considering their "fight"... Is that hard to fight the sight of your own partner which whom you share your life with and have influence on you being human... I'm gay 🧏‍♀️🙋‍♀️

I don't feel any transphobia in JK Rowlings attitude or writing or anything else she could have done before.
I have a friend (girl) actually who just started a testosterone treatment for to grow muscle and beard and she is gonna marry a girl, and she is a real HP fan 😉

And I have two friends (girls) getting married in May, they also are ... Hermione is kind of sexy, they said, and she really is super hot and she easily find a brother in Harry...

About fame, sometimes, you don't really value your loss having certain behavior or not, unless you really are who you pretend to be. "Happily self-Partnered" is a good expression, women seemed to like it during the premiere in New York!

Well As a gay woman I don't feel any transphobia at all, it's quite disgusting...


Fallan (msyvettereads) | 7 comments Florian wrote: "What concern me is "how far her words can influence people?" because to be honest if everyone who would read her would think "she says shit." then I wouldn't care.
But, we seem to be so careful abo..."


this is exactly my thought on the matter. Yes, JK Rowling is responsible for the words she says and writes, but we too have a responsibility in separating the person from the writing, and also not placing these "influential" people on such a high platform that their opinions become fact, law, or absolute, or what have you. She is not God, she is a writer with a large cult following. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan, but I also know that Harry Potter is a fantasy, and JK Rowling is a flawed human being like the rest of us. We have a responsibility to ourselves not to get carried away in our devotion to other people and to stop placing importance on their opinions on how others live their life.


message 41: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Fallan wrote: "Florian wrote: "What concern me is "how far her words can influence people?" because to be honest if everyone who would read her would think "she says shit." then I wouldn't care.
But, we seem to b..."

Would you react the same way if this was about racism or anti-semitism?


message 42: by Marina (last edited Dec 31, 2019 02:38PM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Camelia Rose wrote: "I see why trans men/women feel feel vulnerable in a society where gender binary is the norm, but we are not talking about the same thing.

"Anyway nobody is saying that accidentally using the wron..."

Male/female are arbitrary terms, just like androtypical/estrotypical. The former two are widely used among non-scientists, the latter not really.

I'm a linguist and I explained how "phobia" as a noun is different from -phobia as a suffix, but yeah seems like we're talking past each other. And JKR does seem to have an irrational fear of cis men pretending to be trans women in order to rape cis women.

I think plenty of trans people who use "they" would be happy to be referred to by a neopronoun like ze/sie/xer and whatnot. Most people who don't like singular they are also firmly against these pronouns. I don't get why you're trying so hard to hijack this thread, there are other threads about trans rights.
JK Rowling doesn't stand against deliberately misgendering people, which is a much lower bar than what we're talking about. There's also the option of always using the (current!) name - yes, trans people will still notice, but that's better than constant misgendering.


Fallan (msyvettereads) | 7 comments Marina wrote: "Fallan wrote: "Florian wrote: "What concern me is "how far her words can influence people?" because to be honest if everyone who would read her would think "she says shit." then I wouldn't care.
Bu..."


I'm a black woman, so yes I have reacted this way in the face of racism.


message 44: by [deleted user] (new)

Marina wrote: "Fallan wrote: "Florian wrote: "What concern me is "how far her words can influence people?" because to be honest if everyone who would read her would think "she says shit." then I wouldn't care.
Bu..."


As a gay women, sometimes, I feel comfortable being called "he" but still prefers "She" because I'm controversial...

I feel discomfort actually of people wondering on the Use of the pronoun, and especially people who are fast finding a breakthrough. I mean people who wait for the mistake, they can take advantage of it, even if there is no mistake, but they need one to get rid of their own discomfort facing the question, because it relays to there own values or their own opinion, it's not normal, but to get acceptance or ascent from other bullyers they pretend not to be they need to find a mistake within emphatics (JKRollings I believe is more than people searching for her to mistake) people to get back in their all-powerfullness and avoid being called what they point at through their fingers getting avoid of being ban of the "good thinking" people...
People who always claim to be victim, but are really bullyers due to habitudes and people never saying them, what they really are, sometimes because of fame, or a good place in the neighborhood of a famous people, being kind of snake, trying to 'mansplane' their life... being jealous of the power of their famous friend pretending not to be...

Pointing at someone to create a controverse is just disgusting as soon as it take a single minute to destroy someone who made her life building herself.. whether it's a man or a woman, a black or non-black, a yellow (Han's dynasty comes from the yellow river so here is the starting point) or non yellow, a Hispanic, a jew, a jehova witness, etc... Pointing at is maybe easier than looking further for a good proper answer, instead of claiming to be perfect...

I'm really intersectional today ! Women do it better, women for women do it better


message 45: by Marina (last edited Jan 01, 2020 11:14AM) (new)

Marina | 314 comments Umm there are lesbians who prefer the "he" pronoun sometimes or always.
Trans people are certainly not jealous of JKR, they're just upset that she turned out to be a gender essentialist.
Her statement is very calculated, it's not a "mistake". She supported a vehemently transphobic person. That's it.

I get that giving attention to likes may seem petty, but it's twitter itself that shows you some likes of the people you're following, in case you also enjoy the tweet and want to like/retweet it. And the second time it happened she clearly knew how the function works.
Here in Russia, a footballer was suspended from his team for liking a derogatory post about the coach. (eventually both left) Yes that's harsh, but he was the captain and this came across as passive-aggressive.

@Fallan that makes me sad :( Racism should not be overlooked. (I totally get being tired of it and choosing your battles!)
Oh and I totally agree about not being carried away in our devotion. As I've said several times, an important factor here is that as a living person JKR still profits off HP. Trans people are choosing not to buy anything new anymore, and they're warning fellow trans fans about the issue.

As one of my links said, previously she had replied "yes" to a tweet asking if hogwarts is safe for LGBT students. Now she's shown that like many others, she only accepts the LGB part and not the rest.

Omg is it so hard to side with those who are disappointed now after finding consolation in Hogwarts when their family/friends/teachers didn't accept them?


message 46: by Ari (new)

Ari | 4 comments Evgeny, hi. You are not entitled to Marina's emotional labour. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-...


message 47: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Can someone contact a mod?

Thanks for the support, Ari. (Kiitos:))


message 48: by Marina (new)

Marina | 314 comments Ari answered it perfectly. You can also google to find out more.
Your insistence is bordering on harassment (and you've been extremely disrespectful towards me). I'm not interested in arguing with you so don't bother responding to what I say. I'll try to stop engaging, but if I do reply to something that's only for the benefit of other people reading this.


message 49: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 07, 2020 11:29AM) (new)

I am incredibly disheartened by JK Rowling's comments and some of the rhetoric in this thread.

Trans women are women. No matter how they dress, whether or not they have had surgery or hormone therapy, or how they wear their hair. Trans women are women just as they are, full stop. They deserve and REQUIRE our love and protection.

And science tells us that sex is not a binary. There is an incredible spectrum of combinations of genitals/internal organs/chromosomes/secondary sex characteristics that are all NORMAL.

JK Rowling and anyone who does not believe that trans women are women and trans rights are human rights cannot in good faith call themselves a feminist.

I would also appreciate Emma saying something about all of this because she has publicly advertised herself as a trans ally and she has a huge platform. Trans people need her to speak up for them. I see it as her duty as an activist and feminist.


message 50: by Florian (last edited Jan 07, 2020 11:30AM) (new)

Florian (laughingflow) | 215 comments You make a good point Allie. However, even though science would tell us sex is binary well... It would not matter, what matter is what people feel who they are, correct?
I mean, as long as nobody harms anyone. To me this issue is only based on dogmatism and the fact that people want to apply their vision of life and their value to other people who are obviously peaceful and just want to live as they wish. It's imposing a vision because it does not suit someone's value which have defined an entire development. In my opinion, they take people's freedom to be their self.
Normal what a boring word ☺️ after all, normal refers to what a majority does, we have seen that the majority was mainly patriarchal (either by being accomplices or patriarchs). Let's not be normal 😉

Also, is there any trans women or trans men who has written any inputs in the thread, I'd rather prefer to hear from someone directly concerned (or more concerned) than people who aren't trans people. I am wondering what Kai Cheng Thom, à previous OSS author, would say (or has said) about that.


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