The Catholic Book Club discussion
This topic is about
The Spiritual Combat
The Spiritual Combat (Dec. 2019)
>
1. Mistrusting oneself
date
newest »
newest »
Nothing limits us from true peace and freedom more than trusting our own minds and hearts over the Word of God. We have the example of atheists and the darkness and destruction they bring to our world and to all cultures of the world, and how they abuse power whenever they have it.
Manuel wrote: "The first advice by Scupoli is distrusting oneself. Do you think this is easy, or very difficult? This advice confronts directly one of the most extended tenets of modern psychology, which tells ..."
I have the idea that in the middle is the virtue oneself can not trust only in oneself but he needs to trust in oneself, however the Christian must trust in God. But the Ego is a creation by God, but if you reject completely the Ego you reject God, although i totally agree with the quote of Saint Augustine The love to oneself and the love to the others. In this case i totally agree. This quote is employed by Maxence van der Meersch in my favorite novel "Bodies and Souls" if to mistrust of oneself let that you were less selfish and more generous all my support. Sartre gave the oppositte the hell are the others. It is an evidence that Sartre was totally wrong.
Other influences of Scupoli is Saint Augustine at least it is said in my foreword.
Fonch, I have found that mistrusting myself has led in the past to some psychological instability. Is that what is meant? However, that slight instability DID in time lead to more overt compassion on my part! Maybe that’s part of it... For it also unseated my own ego’s natural diffidence for a while.
Mod
I think you and Fonch haven't got it right.
When I was a child in school, one of my teachers complained that we students always told about our achievements in the active mode (I've passed), while we always told about our failures in the passive mode (I've been failed). All of this in Spanish, of course, but it's true, that's how children speak in my country. So the good grades are due to the child's actions, while the failed grades seem to be the responsibility of the teacher.
What Scupoli is telling us is just the opposite: whenever I do something right, it's not I who has done it, it's not my action, for God was acting through me. At most I can say that I allowed God to act through me.
On the other hand, when I do something wrong (sin) I myself am the only responsible, for I didn't allow God to take control.
Therefore I should trust only God and not me, for whenever I insist to take control, I do something wrong.
Of course i think that i get success is because God let that i get success for a reson. Currently the only thing that i did it it is to fail. Of course that that the trust in God is really important. But you have been created in yourself not believing in yourself it is other way to scorn the God`s creation. For this reason the first comandment is you Will love to overall and the neighbor as yourself.Except in few cases the Catholic Church is based in the aristotle begining that that in the middle is the virtue.. We must avoid the extreme except when you must say yes or not and it was not right may be.
Mod
The middle point principle is applicable to the "moral" virtues: prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, plus similar ones. Those are all that Aristotle considered in his Ethics.
On the other hand, the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity) are not middle point virtues: the more, the better.
Trust in God is a variant of the theological virtue of hope, therefore it is not a middle point virtue.
What an interesting thread! Thank you all for your interesting thoughts. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🙂Manuel - Maestro - I can't understand one thing:
Why do moral virtues follow the "middle point principle"? For example, if we talk about justice, we could also say: "the more justice, the better.", like a theological virtue.
Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Except in few cases the Catholic Church is based in the Aristotle principle that virtue is in the middle point..."The middle point principle is applicable to the "moral" virtues: pr..."
That you trust in God it does not mean that you can not trust in yourself. You are a creation of God. We must avoid that Saint Augustine says the love to myself because this is the beggining of selfish and the individualism in some thinkers and philosophers has fallen. I say the case of Jean Paul Sartre, but we remind the liberalism the personalism of Ayn Rand or the Pelagionism condemned by the catholic church. But neither and this is the thing that i want to say we can not eliminate totally the wisheses and necessities of the person for this reason i spoke of the middle point or the balance the neccesities of the community do not burden the person but we avoid falling in the nhilism and selfish of individualism that it is the evil of our age. Of course we must trust in God totally.
Fonch wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Except in few cases the Catholic Church is based in the Aristotle principle that virtue is in the middle point..."The middle point principle is applicable to the "mor..."
I apologise for the delay in repliying i was keeping in my pendrive a collection of the favorite books of authors of publishing in 2019 published in 2019 entitled the best books that i have ever read in 2019. Of course i have shared with my beloved friend Manuel Alfonseca. I think that it is good that i shared with you in the setion more suitable of Catholic Book Club.
Mod
Why do moral virtues follow the "middle point principle"? For example, if we talk about justice, we could also say: "the more justice, the better.""
Let's look at each of the middle point moral virtues:
Prudence: at one side (too little) you have recklessness; at the other (too much) indecision.
Fortitude: at one side (too little) cowardice; at the other (too much) rashness.
Temperance: the name itself indicates it's middle point. We can fulfill our needs too much or too little.
I've left justice to the end. Justice means giving each person what's their due. But you can give too much or too little. So also justice is a middle point virtue. In this web there is a more complete explanation: http://www.paginasobrefilosofia.com/h...
Mod
True, we cannot eliminate totally our wishes and impulses, but that's not a reason to say that we must trust ourselves, rather the opposite. It means that we cannot eliminate sin totally.
If you trust God totally and mistrust yourself, you'll find that you act as though you had perfect trust in yourself, for God will act through you as you should have acted, and He deserves our trust fully.
On the other hand, if you decide to trust yourself rather than God, you'll find that you don't deserve that trust, in other words, you'll fail.
Although I disagree with Scupoli in other places, in this one I fully agree with him.
Jesús wrote: " I can't understand one thing: Why do moral virtues follow the "middle point principle"? For example, if we talk about justice, we could also say: "the more justice, the better.", like a theological virtue.
From the Nichomachean Ethics, Book V:
"This, then, is what the just is-the proportional; the unjust is what violates the proportion. Hence one term becomes too great, the other too small, as indeed happens in practice; for the man who acts unjustly has too much, and the man who is unjustly treated too little, of what is good."
We can not eliminate the sin totally but This is not justify give Up trusting in oneself. A person without a self in oneself he does not dare to do anything. Lainez says in the Trent council the Faith is not enough oneself to have Will to get the salvation although is God Who gives the Grace. We look the case of The Lord of the Rings Eru only saves Frodo to the end the rest of the travel depended of him and his Friends. I have never said that we give Up trusting in God but also we must Trust in oneself because God can serve of One person to make their actions.
Mod
Trusting yourself is the opposite of trusting God. If you trust God totally (as you must) you must mistrust yourself. If you trust yourself, you are automatically mistrusting God.
Your quote from Lainez does not contradict what I am saying. Faith is not enough, you also need an act of will. The act of will you need is precisely deciding to trust God fully and mistrust yourself.
As I implied in the first comment in this thread, modern psychology has lost its bearings when they insist that one must trust oneself. That position is un-Christian.
Manuel said: "Let's look at each of the middle point moral virtues. .."A good explanation, Manuel. It goes in with many of my theology and philosophy courses in college, as well as much of our greatest literature. I remember this idea in our study of Dante's Inferno back then-- most of the sufferings resulted from an excess or defect in one's actions. Excessive love of the wrong things, or defects in the appropriate love one should have towards a person, for example. Excessive zeal for justice can lead to tyranny or cruelty, temperance can become self-neglect or self-abuse or overindulgence. Virtue is achieved by a balancing act. That's where grace comes in, I think.
Yes i admit that i do not trust very much in the modern psychology. Indeed the example of Sartre i put for criticizing him. I live in time that we do not know a lot of theology and i must learn more. One moment the quote of Saint Augustine said the opposite that we do not Love to ourselve and we must Love the others. I commit a mistake to tell. I was tired when i wrote This reply and i commited a mistake although in the middle term i put to find a balance between the individualism and a system which the freedom and the necessities of the person. I suppose that for This reason i wrote that i wrote previously. I suppose that when i thought somebody which eliminated the person i was thinking in the person. I suppose that i wrote This thinking in the person with Little self steem and security in oneself and i do not think as a way to deny or reject God. Indeed when you give Up believing in God you try to convert in your own God. This is the problem of the current individualism and the comunism tide to deny the value of the person for This reason i take This point of view. I wait that once explained the reason the users understand why i defended my point of view and why i defend the middle point. It is important to live in comunity but This can not eliminate the person. Of course about God total trust in him.
Mod
I think this is part of it, and the other is the apparently limitless ability we have to rationalize what we seek to do in the first place so that our failures are not things done to us, but actually aren't even failures at all. The entire culture war of sexual liberation is an example - if it feels good, do it. But in Scupoli's terminology, this is the upper will trusting in the desires of the lower will and in turn misleading the intellect. Only by trusting God, whose voice is found initially in the scripture and in the teachings of the church, is the intellect able to instruct the higher will enabling it to resist the lower will. But if we get this backwards, if we trust ourselves, perhaps led astray by the dim light of our own self-perceived brilliance, we end up deciding, for example, that homosexuality is just fine and that the scriptural texts that condemn it either mean something other than what they plainly say or are somehow abrogated. Or we decide that notwithstanding 2000 years of church teaching it is fine for adulterers to receive communion without repentance because apparently it is more pastoral to make them feel comfortable in their sin than to try to prevent them from going to hell. I have no doubt that people who make these mistakes think they are doing the right thing, but they have trusted themselves. Not understanding what seem to be harsh teachings, they have rejected trust in God (in the teachings of his Church) and have decided that they must trust in themselves.
I agree with Manuel and Scupoli on this. (I also agree with Manuel that there are places where I disagree with Scupoli, but on this I think he is correct.)
John wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Fergus wrote: "Fonch, I have found that mistrusting myself has led in the past to some psychological instability. Is that what is meant? However, that slight instability DID in time ..."Yes when i write this repjy i think previously in persons with depression of they have not trust. I do not think that the think could go for this way. Of course i reject that the Ego become a God this is the evil of our age. Besides one must not reject the tradition of the Church. This thing happen with the Reformation that everybody thought that his ideas about the church and God were the truth. The example sadest was the case of Menochio the miller that he thought that the world was a cheese plenty of worms. The own Dostoyevski said that if God does not exist all is allowed. The worst slavery is when we are slaved by our own passions. When i wrote my first posts i thought something different and in my intention was not to change God for oneself. I apologise in case that the people understood other thing.
I have changed my opinión and i consider that Alfonseca, Madeleine and John are right and me although with good intention was wrong. I apologise i have benn more superb tan Galileo Galilei. Besides i am not right in this question to the difference with the Italian scientist.
I am absolutely amazed at the concrete and clearly demonstrable veracity of so many of these wonderful comments. My own grounding in any kind of theological expertise is very shaky, and the soundness of your statements and the underlying good judgement they evince gives me cause for wonder.I consider myself a very privileged but unknowledgeable member of this rewarding club.
Many Thanks to you all! With best wishes for a wonderful Joyous Season...
Mod
Merry Christmas to you, Fergus. We are delighted that you have joined us and hope you continue discussing our monthly reads.
Thank you, Fergus! We welcome your comments, and questions are just as important to good discussion, especially if they arise from shaky ground! I wish all here a beautiful and blessed Christmas!
This advice confronts directly one of the most extended tenets of modern psychology, which tells us continuously that we must trust ourselves as much as possible. Do you think Scupoli's advice is outdated, or perhaps modern psychology has lost its bearings and should be corrected?