Tournament of Books discussion
2020 TOB General Topics
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TOB 2020 Longlist
This year taught me that I am a fiction curmudgeon. I've read I think 10 off this list, and wasn't particularly knocked out by any of them. I did find Nickel Boys to probably be in my favorite fiction of 2019, and I also liked Bangkok Wakes to Rain and Red at the Bone a lot, but compared to other years they don't stand as strongly.I did read: America Was Hard to Find - Kathleen Alcott as noted in C's list and was let down by it as well.
magwi wrote: "You might not have intended this Amanda, but for me this is a great argument for why, in the spirit of the ToB, it makes sense to have collections in the tournament - my experience is completely opposite. I am WAY more able to overlook minor flaws in a short story collection than in a novel. One particular glory in the ToB for me (there are so many) is exploring all the ways that it exposes fundamental differences in experience/preference/opinion that can exist among passionate readers.."I also enjoy this aspect of the TOB. Ultimately for me, short stories and novels require different skills in the writing. There is a reason that baseball gives out gold gloves to players in each position. What makes a great catcher is not the same as what makes a great short stop and a great outfielder requires an entirely different set of skills. I feel like trying to figure out what is better between a novel and short story collection is like trying to figure out who is the better baseball player Francisco Lindor or Roberto Perez?
Dianah wrote: "C wrote: "With no disrespect to the great and wonderful ToB... here are some other noteworthy books from 2019. I don't want them to go missed so consider this a place to mention books you would ha..."Thanks for the vouching, Dianah. It helps narrowing the list down! I definitely want to read those that you mentioned.
Ellen wrote: "Thanks, C. My head just exploded. Seriously, though, some of my favorite books of the year were on your list -- Myla Goldberg's Feast Your Eyes, which I think was her best book so..."
Oh gosh, sorry about your head Ellen. My head exploded after I posted the list and saw how long it was. If it helps, I probably missed a TON of quality lit from 2019.
Dianah wrote: "Loved Very Nice by Dermansky. She's in a class by herself when it comes to biting social commentary."Dermansky is one of my very favorite authors - I've loved all four of her novels.
I haven’t read Olive Kitteridge and the library wait time is about 14 weeks... does Olive, Again work as a stand-alone novel (or short story collection?) or do I really need to read O.K. first?
Before I spend a bunch of time on this: Does anyone have a version of the spreadsheet with ISBNs so I can do some delicious data things?
Lauren wrote: "I haven’t read Olive Kitteridge and the library wait time is about 14 weeks... does Olive, Again work as a stand-alone novel (or short story collection?) or do I really need to read O.K. first?"No, I think it would work fine as a standalone. But gosh, if you haven't read Olive Kitteridge then you should. ;-)
Hopefully, I am not repeating something that has already been posted. Hoopla has 17 of these titles. This means that if your library has Hoopla all of these should be available to you at all times. However, you are only allowed so many checkouts per month. The number of checkouts does vary depending on what your library has paid for.Here are the ebooks available:
Ducks, Newburyport
A Girl Returned
Girl, Woman, Other
Honey in the Carcase
In at the Deep End
King of Joy
Let’s Tell This Story Properly
Optic Nerve
Oval
The Parisian
Pigs
The Remainder
Saudade
Here are the audio books:
Death Is Hard Work
The Night Swimmers
Patsy
Trump Sky Alpha
Lauren wrote: "I haven’t read Olive Kitteridge and the library wait time is about 14 weeks... does Olive, Again work as a stand-alone novel (or short story collection?) or do I really need to read O.K. first?"Does your library have an interlibrary loan system? There were literally 60 people ahead of me for Olive at my local library, but I was able to get it right away through interlibrary loan....
Re: isbns, I emailed the powers that be and they added them to the public spreadsheet that’s shared on the post about the long list. In case anyone else cares!
jess wrote: "Re: isbns, I emailed the powers that be and they added them to the public spreadsheet that’s shared on the post about the long list. In case anyone else cares!"wow. don't you feel powerful now!?
Patty wrote: "Hopefully, I am not repeating something that has already been posted. Hoopla has 17 of these titles. This means that if your library has Hoopla all of these should be available to you at all times...."I thought that each library had different titles available through Hoopla, but I checked most of these and it turns out my library has them - yay! Unfortunately I've noticed that they have been deleting a ton of titles each month so I'm nervous that they will no longer be on there next month (and I'm limited to four per month) but I was able to snag a few of these. Thanks for the tip!
And Doug, I don't think my library has that option. We have about 15 branches throughout the city and they can transfer them throughout the branches, but we're not connected to other cities. I tried getting an account with the Houston library but I wasn't able to get it to work for me. Oh well. Other than Olive Kitteridge I have reasonable access to most of the long list titles.
And yes, Elizabeth, I definitely want to read it. I just might need to start with the second book... ;)
Not every library has the same books on Hoopla. For a while I could access both Chicago Public Library's Hoopla, and my current suburb's Hoopla, and they did not have the exact same stuff.
Has anyone checked Scribd? Last year they had quite a few of the titles....I'm a member but I haven't had time to check yet....maybe today.
Janet wrote: "Has anyone checked Scribd?"Oh, shoot--I usually do a Scribd list, don't I? LOL
magwi wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Personally, I find that I can overlook the smaller faults in a novel easier than I could a story collection. With a novel, it is easier to lay out what the author intended and whethe..."I might be interested in this! I recently finished Brownsville: Stories and LOVED the second story. And there are plenty of gems in How Long 'til Black Future Month?. Sticking to only newly published short stories might be more difficult, but still possible. I read Lot last month and just started Sabrina & Corina: Stories so I could see how there might be enough to choose from if that would be the setup. I might enjoy a more open contest though, pulling from older stories as well as new ones (maybe for fairness it can only be short stories that haven't been republished in "best short story collections"?).
A little OT, but a question for Scribd people: I've been thinking for awhile about switching from Audible, but I did some searching and found so many negative reviews. Do they severely throttle you if you try to add current titles? And I saw several people say there was suspicious activity on their credit cards after ordering, and/or that it was almost impossible to cancel. That scared me off, but it does still seem to have its devoted users, so I'm still considering it. Have any of you had issues?
Elizabeth wrote: "A little OT, but a question for Scribd people: I've been thinking for awhile about switching from Audible, but I did some searching and found so many negative reviews. Do they severely throttle you..."The biggest issue I've had is the throttling but by trial and error I have figured out how to get a better experience. The throttling (for me) has only occurred for audiobooks, I have always been able to get any of the ebooks I've wanted. Of course that may be because I don't borrow many e-books because I don't like that format.
Janet wrote: "Has anyone checked Scribd? Last year they had quite a few of the titles....I'm a member but I haven't had time to check yet....maybe today."https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
I have marked the ones that have audio on Scribd, except for the last 10 or so that I haven't gotten to, It also includes Hoopla, and my local library so you can ignore those (unless you happen to live in Fort Wayne). The PPH is just how many pages of audiobook you get through in an hour and then at various speeds, I just like to know if its worth reading or listening to based on speed.
And in response to your other Scribd question, yes you will get throttled, but typically you still get 2-3 new books per month. I have not fully figured out how it works, it might be publisher-based even for some books? I am currently throttled, but I still have Death is Hard Work and All This Can be Yours available.
Janet wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "A little OT, but a question for Scribd people: I've been thinking for awhile about switching from Audible, but I did some searching and found so many negative reviews. Do they sev..."Thanks! I’m hoping it’s not too much of an issue because I’m not going to be getting any James Patterson, etc. But there are a number of good books that make bestseller lists, so that does worry me a bit. (I’d be primarily using it for audio, since I typically use the library for paper or buy ebooks with Amazon credit.)
Kip wrote: "Janet wrote: "Has anyone checked Scribd? Last year they had quite a few of the titles....I'm a member but I haven't had time to check yet....maybe today."https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/......"
Thanks, Kip! I don’t usually listen to more than that anyway, so it sounds like it should work fine.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...Previous link with Scribd info might have actually been broken.
Hey, so I made a couple of lists ON Scribd itself.Audiobooks (44 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/23209199...
eBooks (12 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/23209204...
Scribd invitation: https://www.scribd.com/g/4o5zu9
I have a love/hate relationship with Scribd. I'm mostly an audiobook user of Scribd. After years of use, and plans changing back and forth, I think I finally understand the system: When your new cycle begins, you can listen to any two audiobooks you want. After that, you can listen to audiobooks from a select list ONLY until your next cycle.
What I find problematic is when I've finished my 2 audiobooks, if I search for something and it's not on their select list, the results are hidden from me. I know this because if I run a search logged out of Scribd, I'll find the audiobook. Once I log in, the audiobook disappears until my next cycle. Weird.
You have a limit your limit (2 a month I think) of anything, you're not able to listen to anything you want, just select audiobooks. What I find infuriating is that results are hidden from you if you've reached your quota.
Bob wrote: "Hey, so I made a couple of lists ON Scribd itself.Audiobooks (44 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/23209199...
eBooks (12 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/2320..."
Thanks Bob...And wow, that sounds ridiculous to not be able to prepare in advance unless you do all your searching a month in advance. So you're able to log out and search, though? (You'd think they'd let you set up a waiting list so that you can pop back on when it opens back up and just choose from that list. Yuck.)
Personally I have found that if you have a library system with decent monthly amounts for Hoopla and a halfway decent Overdrive portfolio, you don't need Scribd for audio. The 2 audiobooks a month wasn't worth paying for IMO. But I have a pretty robust library system allowing me 10 Hoopla borrows a month and a decent Overdrive lineup. I can't get through more than 10 audiobooks in a month, no way, so this works great for me.
Another good lesson from this, when you are throttled, searching for books is WEIRD. Why Bob was able to find so much more. (Also it’s possible that if I had it available on Hoopla/Libby, I didn’t search for scribd because I knew I would get it through the library)
Elizabeth wrote: "So you're able to log out and search, though? (You'd think they'd let you set up a waiting list so that you can pop back on when it opens back up and just choose from that list. Yuck."It's gotten better--I have been able to make these lists, for instance, even though I've exceeded my any two audiobooks for the cycle. This is something that couldn't happen about 4 months ago, the last time I complained to Scribd.
EDIT: LOL just got an email from Scribd alerting me that my new cycle begins today--so that may be why I found everything so readily.
If you can download to a device that you can disconnect from internet and cellular you can get many more than 2. You'd be fine unless you had problems with the app and had to reconnect. Also, if you get past a certain (mystery) point where they have to pay the publisher, they will allow continued access to that title. This has been my personal experience and I can tell you it's infuriating to have your download removed when you've already listened to a portion of the audiobook. YMMV because they really are not clear on their policies.
Bob wrote: "Hey, so I made a couple of lists ON Scribd itself.Audiobooks (44 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/23209199...
eBooks (12 titles): https://www.scribd.com/lists/2320..."
Bob, I couldn't access your audiobooks list....the ebooks list came up fine. By your count though, you seem to have access to more audiobooks than I do.....it may just be the issue you referred to previously....I've reached my limit for this month.
Janet wrote: ".it may just be the issue you referred to previously....I've reached my limit for this month"It's infuriating, isn't it? Why do they have to hide everything?! Just tell me I don't have access until my next cycle. Yeesh.
When I click on your audiobook list, I see 3 books lol. Also I haven’t tried the downloading thing, I will have to do that.
Kip wrote: "When I click on your audiobook list, I see 3 books lol."What are the 3?
Queenie, All this could be yours, riots I have known.
After reading the convo here & being once-again irritated that my city library had restricted Hoopla to only comics/graphic novels/movies, and those only 2/month, I went to search for an alternative & found they're now using an app called SimplyE, which looks like it started at the NYPL. Once I linked my card to it, the search gives me all the library's results for Overdrive ebooks, Axis 360 ebooks and RBDigital audiobooks. It imported all the checkouts I had on Libby & let me immediately check out 2 books I'd had on long holds through Overdrive (Normal People still shows 6 months through Libby, but I got it now through one of the others) & also put on hold a couple others I couldn't put on hold through Overdrive because I was at my hold limit.I think it's not an app in wide use, but it was p exciting for me, since RB and Axis are PITAs to me & not places I generally remember to check if I'm searching for books.
Bob, I'm not a Scribd member, and I see them all. It must be the throttling.Melanie wrote: "After reading the convo here & being once-again irritated that my city library had restricted Hoopla to only comics/graphic novels/movies, and those only 2/month, I went to search for an alternativ..."
Whaaat? Must tell my lovely reference librarians. (I bet it's pricey, though, and I live in a pretty rural area.) ETA: Looks like it's only going to be available at NYPL, one of their techies may even have developed the system? Oh well...
magwi wrote: "Also can we talk about the short story collection issue? I’m not sure what to do with them from the ToB perspective. Do they belong? The pros: I love* short stories. Exhalation is one of the book..."
We're already comparing wildly disparate genres here, with graphic novels and young adult going up against exhaustively researched historical fiction and autofic. No reason not to toss short stories into the mix.
Melanie wrote: "After reading the convo here & being once-again irritated that my city library had restricted Hoopla to only comics/graphic novels/movies, and those only 2/month, I went to search for an alternativ..."Please don't judge your local library too harshly. Hoopla is great for library patrons not so much for libraries. Hoopla can get prohibitively expensive very quickly especially in cities.
Amanda wrote: "Melanie wrote: "After reading the convo here & being once-again irritated that my city library had restricted Hoopla to only comics/graphic novels/movies, and those only 2/month, I went to search f..."I think I may have had this conversation with you in the commentariat a year or two ago. Our library allows 5 books and I used to check out indiscriminately, even when I knew I might not have time to read them all. I wish everyone knew the library pays for each of the borrows...
Elizabeth wrote: "I wish everyone knew the library pays for each of the borrows...."I know that's true but isn't it also true that funding is tied to usage? I'd never want to discourage anyone from borrowing books. In most government agencies, if you don't spend all your funds you get less the next fiscal year.
Janet wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I wish everyone knew the library pays for each of the borrows...."I know that's true but isn't it also true that funding is tied to usage? I'd never want to discourage anyone fr..."
While my library does not use Hoopla, we do have our budgets set up so we do not leave money on the table. Depending on the year we have had to put a hold on ebook purchases for months, or had to spend extra money in like 2 weeks. I have fond memories of being given an extra $3000 to spend on adult fiction one June. That will probably never happen again, but it was nice when it did. If a library had extra money in the Hoopla budget near the end of the fiscal year, they would promptly spend it somewhere else before the clock ran out.
Amanda wrote: "Janet wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I wish everyone knew the library pays for each of the borrows...."I know that's true but isn't it also true that funding is tied to usage? I'd never want to discou..."
Which library items are pay per use vs. item purchased? Am I wasting my library's money if I check out a physical book and don't finish it?
Janet wrote: Which library items are pay per use vs. item purchased? Am I wasting my library's money if I check out a physical book and don't finish it? You are not wasting any library money on physical books. In fact, checkouts for physical books are the main statistic we use to gauge popularity. Every time you check out a book, don't read, return, repeat, that helps the library. It will also help the library to order that particular author's future books. We don't have the time to look at how many individuals are checking out the book.
Ebooks and EAudio are different and it's a title by title difference. Many ebooks have a finite number of checkouts on them--26 or 1 year, 52 or 2 years are the most common terms, some automatically expire 1 or 2 years after date of purchase, some are 26 or 52 checkouts with no time limit, and some are completely "owned" by the library. Most publishers are moving to the 26/1year model, and most ebooks will expire before getting to the 26 checkouts. If you don't finish the ebook, it won't matter in the end.
Hoopla is a different animal where it charges the library a flat rate for ebooks/eaudiobooks/movies etc. The rate varies based on the size of the library's population. Your library is charged no matter how much you read the book.
Amanda wrote: "Janet wrote: Which library items are pay per use vs. item purchased? Am I wasting my library's money if I check out a physical book and don't finish it? You are not wasting any library money on p..."
Thanks for the info!
Oooh - totally didn’t know about the pay-per-use Hoopla thing. My library just has Libby but one of my sneaky accounts is Hoopla (limited to comics, movies, music - but 10/month) and I definitely have been misusing.
Lauren wrote: "I haven’t read Olive Kitteridge and the library wait time is about 14 weeks... does Olive, Again work as a stand-alone novel (or short story collection?) or do I really need to read O.K. first?"Lauren - 14 weeks wait for the FIRST book? Whoa... if you are a member of paperbackswap.com it looks like they currently have 46 available copies ready to be mailed to you. I definitely think you should read the first one!
Amy wrote: "jess wrote: "Re: isbns, I emailed the powers that be and they added them to the public spreadsheet that’s shared on the post about the long list. In case anyone else cares!"wow. don't you feel powerful now..."
I feel like I experienced a very high level of prompt customer service. I know that they usually have the ISBNs on their master sheet, so I felt like it was a pretty simple request. If I thought Andrew was going to look them all up, I would have just done that work myself :)
Elizabeth wrote: "ETA: Looks like it's only going to be available at NYPL, one of their techies may even have developed the system?"I didn't realize from the App Store that it would work w my library; I just trusted when my library said it would.
The app says "Don’t have a library card? No problem. Thousands of public domain classics are available as soon as you download the app, no library card required.
SimplyE was created by a partnership of libraries and library consortia across the country, with The New York Public Library currently serving as lead partner. Check with your local library to find out if it offers SimplyE, or download the app now to get started reading from the SimplyE Collection."
Here's the list, per my app settings, that are connected systems (Co: County, P: Public, L: Library) -
NYPL, Brooklyn PL
Alameda County, Alpine PL, Ann Arundel Co PL
Bandera PL, Beacon Falls PL, Black Gold Cooperative Lib, Brazoria County Lib, Brownwood PL, Butte Co L
Calcoun Co PL, Calvert L, Charles Co PL, Cockrell Hill PL, Comfort PL, Contra Costa Co L, Corona PL, Crosby Co L
Digital PL of America
EC Scranton Memorial L, East Lyme L, Eastland Centennial Memorial L
Florence PL, Frederick Co PL
Garden Ridge L, Glendora PL, Gonzales PL, Great River Regional L
Hall Memorial L, Hillsboro City L, Houston PL, Howard Co L Sys, Howard Co L, TX
Internet Archive
Jasper PL, Jeff Davis Co L, Johnson City L
Kilgore Memorial L
Laguna Vista PL, Lake Travis Community L, Lakehills Area L, Lena Armstrong PL, Los Angeles PL
Mae S Bruce L, Mammen Family PL, Marathon Family PL, Martindale Community L, Milford PL, Montgomery County PL, Mountain View PL, Muleshoe Area PL
New Britain PL, New Milford PL, North Branford PL
Oakland PL, Open Textbook L, Orange PL
Palo Alto PL, Pleasanton PL, Porterville City L, Post PL, Pottsboro PL
Rhome Community L, Rio Grande City PL, Rolling Hills L, Round Rock PL, Ruth Enlow L of Garret Co
San Francisco PL, San Jose PL, San Mateo PL, Santa Clara Co L District, Schulenburg PL, Seguin PL, Shelton L System, St Mary's C L, State L of Kansas, Sunnyvale PL
Taylor PL, Tye Preston Memorial L
West Hartford PL, Wolfforth L, Woodbury PL
Yoakum C L-Plains
(that's an obnoxiously long post, sorry!)Amanda, I'm just glad I got so much Hoopla use when HPL did have the wider catalog. I wasn't crazy about the UXP but I liked the content.
The 11-17 Book Riot podcast talks briefly about the costs of digital lending - didn't expand much on what Janet explained here, but as FYI
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You might not have intended this Amanda, but for me this is a great argument for why, in the spirit of the ToB, it makes sense to have collections in the tournament - my experience is completely opposite. I am WAY more able to overlook minor flaws in a short story collection than in a novel. One particular glory in the ToB for me (there are so many) is exploring all the ways that it exposes fundamental differences in experience/preference/opinion that can exist among passionate readers.
Personally, I will likely *completely forget about the existence of* unremarkable stories, yet hold effortlessly to memories of the pieces that particularly charmed. True clunkers might linger and influence my overall view of the collection, but I am not sure that the inclusion of even a clunker in any way lessens my willingness to rejoice in any collection that contains true gems. In a novel, small missteps are more likely to influence my experience/perception of the whole.
I do think that there’s something in the difference between collections that are somehow connected or thematically joined versus those that are not, and I agree that a competition between a thematically connected set of stories and a novel makes more sense (as much as any of this makes sense).
I hadn’t thought about the prior publication issue, although it certainly is relevant. I personally have found myself both delighted and annoyed to find previously published material in a book. (Aside: any other readers of Less feel cheated when they realized that they’d already read the best part of the book in The New Yorker? I got nothing out of the whole that wasn’t better contained in the section that had been previously published as a short story, and I sort of wanted my time back.)
In my mind, you could legitimately have a ToSFC (Tournament of Short Fiction Collections) and a separate but equally exciting ToSS (Tournament of Short Stories) annually, thus leaving the ToB to the novels that have been it’s primary fodder. Failing that, I suppose including collections in the ToB is the best way to get the breadth of fiction on the list, and now I am *so curious* about how different readers experience collections.
Just a test balloon: are there other devotees of short fiction in this group that would want to help run and/or play along in a reader-organized-ToSS if I led the charge to make such a thing happen during one of the ToB-activity-less periods of next year? Now that I have thought of this idea I am obsessed with the possibility of (1) finding amazing single stories that other serious readers want to share, and (2) getting to talk about what makes a great short story with my favorite group of internet readers.
Right, back to my real job, which is *not* reading fiction.