Series: Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson ("Red Mars")

[Gabi]

Reg Part 3: XD I'm exactly the opposite, Oleksandr, (view spoiler)[ my interest diminished the longer the talks went on (and I must admit I can't remember for half of the names who those characters are). I liked Sax' musings and his solo part in Part 2, though. (hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

Gabi wrote: "Reg Part 3: XD I'm exactly the opposite, Oleksandr, [spoilers removed]"

Politics is interesting, while politicking is enraging :)

A few more parts, Part 4 & 5 (view spoiler)[Nothing spectacular, Earth is booooring :). It is interesting to see that no significant progress in London despite robotic moving factories on Mars... and I like Micheal thoughts on psychology but don't care much about his rich inner world and nostalgia, I'm crass I know (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

Oleksandr wrote: "...Politics is interesting, while politicking is enraging :)..."

This distinction 👍

[Gabi]

Oleksandr wrote: "

A few more parts, Part 4 & 5 [spoilers removed]"

Agreed, (view spoiler)[ those two parts were slow fillers, but I was a) relieved that it wasn't more talking of a lot of characters and b) the description of the Berner Oberland was wonderful for me on a personal ground since I have the best of memories of this region from my nostalgia childhood days when the world still was my oyster. So I got quite melancholic there. (hide spoiler)]

From now on I'm only on the app till next year, so spoilers won't work. Therefore only general comments from me.

[Gabi]

I have a new fav word XD: Monocausotaxophilia! And fun part: as I was researching it I came across the psychologist Ernst Poeppel and found that he studied biology at the same university as I did and likewise in the field of circadian rhythms. That's one thing I love about this series, it expands my general knowledge in certain areas.

[Oleksandr]

Gabi wrote: "I have a new fav word XD: Monocausotaxophilia! .."

I liked it too! Also using "Ka" in my talk :)

I also researched a bit about coops, which are the basis of new Mars economy. While there are way fewer papers on them compared with a theory of firm, this is not the conspiracy of silence but just a much smaller share of them in the economy. Actually, the viability of workers’ cooperatives in a capitalist economy has long been a point of debate and analysis since the nineteenth century, as can be seen in the early writings of Karl Marx among others. The literature on this issue has traditionally been dominated by the “degeneration thesis,” which asserts that cooperatives are unavoidably destined to suffer either business failure or a gradual degeneration from democratic forms to capitalist forms of organization.

One of the mentioned multiple times in the book is Mondragon cooperative complex in the Basque Country. see wiki for more detail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...

While it isn't true that it operated hundreds of years as KSM writes, more interesting that the complex [a] remains largely successful [b] is not protected from failures. The most recent failure was that of Fagor Electrodomésticos S. Coop which fell despite the support from both cooperatives and Basque gov't in 2013. At the time of the bankruptcy it was the oldest and largest industrial cooperative in Mondragon, as well as the second largest industrial cooperative in the world.

All this to inform fellow readers that while such solution is possible, it is roughly as failure-susceptible as other forms and not a panacea, as in the book

[Oleksandr]

A brand new interview with KSR https://www.newstatesman.com/kim-stan...

[Karin]

I am looking for the Blue Mars discussion but it didn't show up in the search bar.

[Anna]

Karin wrote: "I am looking for the Blue Mars discussion but it didn't show up in the search bar."

This is it.

[Gabi]

Karin wrote: "I am looking for the Blue Mars discussion but it didn't show up in the search bar."

Karin, somehow nobody who finished Blue Mars joined the discussion. I made a break at half time, cause it didn't grip me as much as the other two did, but I guess I will continue next week.

[Gabi]

I finally finished "Blue Mars".
This one took me weeks longer than the first two parts and it wasn't able to suck me in like the others did. The scientific pioneer feeling was gone (well, which was only consistent with the development of the story) and I didn't care much about the characters (some names I didn't even remember, because there were just too many in the end). Over larger parts of the book I would have been content with only the italic info parts at the beginning of the chapters.

Still impressive and a worthy conclusion to the trilogy, but all in all the series would have benefitted from some tightening.

[Jemppu]

The follow-up to the series, The Martians, is highly recommendable for some great additional moments of varying kinds. KSR really stretches their style there too, occasionally.

(That was also where the novella Green Mars fit in, it turns out).

[DivaDiane]

Gabi wrote: "A question: what is 'kissing in the European style'? I never was aware of us kissing differently."

I'm finally far enough along in Blue Mars (just a few hours from the end) that I thought I could go to my computer and read spoilers.

Gabi, the European style of kissing, or rather of greeting by kissing, is different to in the US. In Europe, you often greet people by kissing a cheek or both or even three times. We don't do that at all in the US. If you are close with someone you will probably give them a hug, but not a kiss, even a peck on the cheek.

[DivaDiane]

Mareike wrote: "Part 6 [I'm still not quite sure what to make of Nirgal and his "powers"... And I'm a bit wary about the way he keeps being positioned as special and destined for greatness. "

I loved this part about Nirgal, way back in Green Mars. I'm disappointed that he was never able to develop them or use them later on in the books. Or rather that KSR didn't continue on that tack.

[DivaDiane]

I'm not quite finished, but I have to say I'm less enamored of Blue Mars. I loved the section of Nirgal preparing for the race around Mars and meeting the ferals. But, I don't know if it is because I listened rather than read it, but suddenly they were all so much older and the rest of the Solar System is being colonized. Where did that come from?!?

And then all of the sudden (view spoiler)[Zo is killed/dies. Ugh. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Diane wrote: "Gabi wrote: "A question: what is 'kissing in the European style'? I never was aware of us kissing differently."

I'm finally far enough along in Blue Mars (just a few hours from the end) that I tho..."

Somebody told me the same (Jemppu?), I must be the wrong European ;).

Regarding your spoiler: (view spoiler)[ Zo wasn't even developed enough as a character for this to make any impression. For my taste there are too many characters in the end with too little "screentime" to make a connection. (hide spoiler)]

[Karin]

Diane wrote: "I'm not quite finished, but I have to say I'm less enamored of Blue Mars. I loved the section of Nirgal preparing for the race around Mars and meeting the ferals. But, I don't know if it is because..."

I didn't like this as much, either and I read all three in print. The other two were solid 3 stars for me (liked--but for me this was uneven as in each book there were parts I more than just liked and parts that just dragged), but this one only got 2 stars.

my short review

[Jemppu]

Diane wrote: "...the European style of kissing, or rather of greeting by kissing, is different to in the US. In Europe, you often greet people by kissing a cheek or both or even three times. We don't do that at all in the US. If you are close with someone you will probably give them a hug, but not a kiss, even a peck on the cheek..."

Gabi wrote: "...Somebody told me the same (Jemppu?), I must be the wrong European ;)...."

I want to clarify, that that is indeed a gross generalization (and I'm sure KSR knows it too, but was speaking through a character). No way do all Europeans kiss upon greeting. Don't even try that in Finland *hah*

Then again... who knows what's prevailing by the time we're inhabiting other planets ;)

[Karin]

Jemppu wrote: "I want to clarify, that that is indeed a gross generalization (and I'm sure KSR knows it too, but was speaking through a character). No way do all Europeans kiss upon greeting. Don't even try that in Finland *hah*."

No kidding! I was appalled by that stereotype--it only holds in certain countries.

[Gabi]

@Karin: I'm with you on the too much politics part. Even though I can read chapters upon chapters of scientific description (it's due to my university training), I get easily bored when it is too much talk about politics. And the border was crossed in the third book.
Still all in all a nice round picture of realistic colonisation.

[DivaDiane]

Yes, infinitely realistic it is! I’ve followed this book up with Martian Time-Slip (by PKD) and the difference is so stark! KSR goes into such detail and shows us the development of the society and the terraforming of Mars so clearly that I see Dick’s Mars colonization and think “that could never work” and “where are the computers?!?”

[DivaDiane]

I finally finished Blue Mars! I liked the last 10% quite a bit. Which isn't to say I hated 90% of it. No, but there were vast swathes in the middle that I could've lived quite well without. Namely the part where Zo and then Zo and Anne go off galavanting through the solar system. That did nothing to evolve the story of the series at all and Zo was a character basically wearing a Red Shirt, if you know what I mean.

It seemed to me that KSR really allowed himself to go off on extended tangents, I'm thinking specifically about the one on Memory and the nature of memory and the extrapolation and application of the (future) science of memory, which I personally found fascinating, but which then needed to be applied to every aspect of the plot. I was very nearly offended by (view spoiler)[Sax's musings on Maya's memory lapse about Frank, which may or may not have killed Michel and then her reaction to that event. I think it was pretty insensitive and then I thought, well, people do things like that all the time to cope and not be completely overwhelmed by someones grief. (hide spoiler)]

I very much enjoyed the section with Sax and Anne at the end. Sax was very much the main character of Blue Mars, wasn't he?

[Oleksandr]

Diane wrote: "Sax's musings on Maya's memory lapse"

Just recently I've met such a lapse in one of documentaries, a traumatic experience (about the WW2) forgotten for decades, so it is not that uncommon

[Jemppu]

The moments between Sax and Anne in this were indeed some of the most satisfying. Love these two.

And agree on Zo being rather an unremarkable character; left me completely indifferent. Until The Martians, which had a wonderfully endearing chapter on them.

[DivaDiane]

I’m sure I would love that collection, Jemina. Thanks for reminding me!