Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Nov 2014: Mind Games/Karma Girl
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Superheroes in Pop Culture
How could we not bring up Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. ;) It's pure pop culture and helped many careers. :)
The romance of the character "Penny" and the love triangle says it all. :P
As a person obsessed with She-Ra, Jem & the Holograms, Xena, Buffy, Lost Girl, Bitten & S.H.I.E.L.D. it is hard to put into words how excited I am about the November Vaginal Fantasy picks. Netflix has started to suggest "Strong Female Lead" shows to me. I enjoy a lot of their suggestions like Orphan Black. My problem is the diction. Is there a "Strong Male Lead" grouping?
Laura wrote: "As a person obsessed with She-Ra, Jem & the Holograms, Xena, Buffy, Lost Girl, Bitten & S.H.I.E.L.D. it is hard to put into words how excited I am about the November Vaginal Fantasy picks. Netflix..."
I think there's two different things going on. Is power fantasy a thing with male characters? DEFINITELY. The entire genre of thriller and action movies implicitly centered around that. There's superman, batman, etc. Except people would say they want "thrillers" and "action movies" with the implicit assumption that the character leading these movies is male. Female has become an "other" sort of category, even though technically they fall in the same genre. Netflix knows you want movies with female leads because they're rarer and harder to find.
I think "strong female character" initially meant "strong character", as in interesting, versus "strong female" as in strong but more and more I'm seeing women want female power fantasies as well. There's your Katniss and your Buffy.
I know with the Tomb Raider, there was major backlash because people thought she was a power fantasy and there were parts when she was powerless.
My favourite female superhero is Korra the current Avatar though. Hands down.
I think there's two different things going on. Is power fantasy a thing with male characters? DEFINITELY. The entire genre of thriller and action movies implicitly centered around that. There's superman, batman, etc. Except people would say they want "thrillers" and "action movies" with the implicit assumption that the character leading these movies is male. Female has become an "other" sort of category, even though technically they fall in the same genre. Netflix knows you want movies with female leads because they're rarer and harder to find.
I think "strong female character" initially meant "strong character", as in interesting, versus "strong female" as in strong but more and more I'm seeing women want female power fantasies as well. There's your Katniss and your Buffy.
I know with the Tomb Raider, there was major backlash because people thought she was a power fantasy and there were parts when she was powerless.
My favourite female superhero is Korra the current Avatar though. Hands down.
When it comes to romance in the superhero genre one very popular trope comes to mind. It's always that the hero has to pick between having any type meaningful relation with the person they care about and and being the hero. I guess it make the hero seem more heroic and almost like a type of martyr. I don't really know what that says about our culture, but I'm sure it means something (probably something crappy).
Also I have to add that this months theme is very timely with Marvel finally announcing the CAPTAIN MARVEL movie. I'm super excited, it makes me feel very optimist I about women's roles in superhero pop culture.
I am excited about Miss. Marvel. I just wish more female Super Hero movies were being made. With different ethnicities, body types & powers.
Agreed. We do need more diversity. But things really are getting better in the superhero/comic genre. First we get Carol Danvers then we get Kamal Khan. But it's super important that we support these books and movies not just talk about them. If we don't we will never get a Kamal Khan movie or even a Black Widow movie. We'll just get more reboots of Spider-Man Superman Batman and so on. The most diverse superhero story I can think of to recommend is "The Movement" written by Gail Simone. It only lasted one story arch but it was so good. I would just recommend anything Gail Simone writes she works really hard to bring diversity to the genre and to me she is a superhero.
I'm getting excited about all the awesome comic talk these books could bring on since I write comics and all.Indie comics have long been embracing awesome female superheroes. Look at characters like Aspen from Fathom. She is a marine biologist that finds out she has water powers and definitely uses them for good. How badass is that?
Or Casey in Morning Glories appears to have some kind of powers that is helping her make an impact. Well maybe. Readers really have no idea what is going on.
Sara from Witchblade, Buffy (yes she gets powers in the comics), Sela from Grimm Fairy Tales...so many great superhero-esq characters to choose from.
I'm not a comic reader, but after each Marvel universe movie (or character introduction in S.H.I.E.L.D) I tend to read the wikipedia entry for those characters - I've been kind of surprised just how much romance there is in the superhero canon. It seems like every major character has at least a couple of romantic relationships. I mean look at Hawkeye - relationships with Black Widow, Mockingbird, Scarlet Witch, no idea who else. I don't know how the women in these stories stack up as fully-realised people though!
Now, I know this is kind of out of left field-ish... but can I just mention:2004 Disney/Pixar release The Incredibles
This animated film did a fabulous job of showing women- 'real' women, 'super' women, in such a great light. Tall, short, big hips, super skinny, smart, sassy, manipulative... not victims, not only an extension of a male character...
Heck, even Edna Mode was nearly a power in and of herself (how DID she make those suits?) I adore Helen and her no-nonsense attitude and kick-butt skills (using her stretchy hips to knock out soldiers- classic!) Even Mirage grows and changes (though we don't really see much of her powers, do we?)
I guess I kind of wish the women from The Incredibles were more indicative of the direction of 'super' women in general. Not necessarily an Amazon supermodel with an itty bitty outfit and an invisible jet. Seriously, I have such issues with the whole invisible jet thing... I want to see junk in the trunk! I want to see more women, more reality, more variety!
As Laura mentioned, there is a precident for the viability of these female 'supers'. Zena, Buffy, Lost Girl, (among others) have showed us that people like it and it can be profitable. Women don't always have to be only a romantic interest, only a sex symbol, only a 'bad girl' villian (or sometimes/mostly villian)- we can be strong characters that kick butt separate from a male counterpart.
Sorry it's so ranty and rambly, I'm not sure I am even making sense... C'est la vie.
Alana ~ The Book Pimp wrote: "Now, I know this is kind of out of left field-ish... but can I just mention:
2004 Disney/Pixar release The Incredibles
This animated film did a fabulous job of showing women- 'real' women, 'super..."
I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT THE INCREDIBLES.
Amazing call!
2004 Disney/Pixar release The Incredibles
This animated film did a fabulous job of showing women- 'real' women, 'super..."
I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT THE INCREDIBLES.
Amazing call!
I might be in the minority here, but I like the skimpy Superhero outfits. If written well it's not offensive. Red Sonja wears her chain mail bikini because she likes it. I don't really even think about her outfit, it just seems like it's part of her. Wonder Woman too. She looks hella good in that swim suit sized armor and red knee high boots while she's tying men up making them tell the truth. It's a thin line. It all comes down to the writers and artist. Once they turn it into something gross and the artist draw them in suggestive poses just because, stop supporting it.
I'm not saying they are bad, or I don't like them, I'm just stating what I'd LIKE to see for the 'future' of 'super' women out there in pop culture and such. I get that sex sells, and it's an easy way to snag the female audience with a strong female character and then the guy audience with skimpier/tight clothing. I don't even find it offensive- hell, I watched Xena, I watched Wonder Woman, Xena, Buffy, Lost Girl, Supergirl, Barbarella, She-Ra, Thundercats (Ho!), Aeon Flux (cartoon),Tank Girl, Hellboy... even the Adventure of Shark Boy and Lava Girl (I still can't see Twilight and look at 'jacob' without thinking of Sharkboy signing "Dream, dream, dream")...
It's more of a 'if I could have my ideal version of super ladies' then I'd like them to push the envelope, look beyond the sex- because it's been done. 'Super heroes' is such a saturated market, they need bold new ideas and I'd love for those ideas to include women in roles other than 'the sex kitten', 'the girl next door', 'the crazy one', the 'choatic-neutral-villian-but-not-really', 'the bookworm backup', 'the witch'... I want them not only to push the envelope, but tear it up and throw it away and open a whole box of awesome. It can still include some small or tight outfits, because they need to secure that staple male audience, but I want progressive innovation. if I had my way... which I pretty much don't.
OK... I've stepped off my soapbox, sorry to ramble on...
Orange wrote: "I might be in the minority here, but I like the skimpy Superhero outfits. If written well it's not offensive. Red Sonja wears her chain mail bikini because she likes it. I don't really even think a..."
Important thing to remember in the "they wear it because they like it" category is that they were written by people, mostly men, who had them wear it. In the words of Jessica Rabbit, "I was just drawn this way."
Wonderwoman's outfit has been redesigned to be practical and I adore it. But I still feel like the majority of female superhero outfits weren't, and I'd love for them to have the diversity, comfort and practicality of male superhero outfits.
Important thing to remember in the "they wear it because they like it" category is that they were written by people, mostly men, who had them wear it. In the words of Jessica Rabbit, "I was just drawn this way."
Wonderwoman's outfit has been redesigned to be practical and I adore it. But I still feel like the majority of female superhero outfits weren't, and I'd love for them to have the diversity, comfort and practicality of male superhero outfits.
Wearing a cape to a fight is one of the most impractical things you can do almost as impractical as wearing a mask.
Wearing a cape to a fight is one of the most impractical things you can do almost as impractical as wearing a mask.
I do definitely agree on some level with Alana. And I second that I found the Incredibles a refreshing take on things. That being said I do love all variety of superheroes and comics and such. And I find it very off putting when characters are drawn skimpy and suggestivly or lewdly posed for no reason.
Anja wrote: "Important thing to remember in the "they wear it because they like it" category is that they were written by people, mostly men, who had them wear it. In the words of Jessica Rabbit, "I was just drawn this way."..."I agree with that!
Sorry, it's just that as a fan I get very defensive and upset over the "Wonder Woman" issue. It's upsetting, she's almost as old as Batman who has had what, 6 or 7 feature films, and now after 74 years she is finally getting a part in a Superman Batman movie but the people at WB change her outfit to look more like a warrior. It's wrong, she's not a warrior, she is supposed to stand for truth, justice, peace, love, and be a feminist icon, for girls and boys. Her creator was a feminist himself and she was created at a time when just as many girls read comics as boys. These days many little kids hardly even know who she is, and I'm afraid that they never will because they are changing her, to be more like lady Sif or Xena or who knows what. Wonder Woman's hot pants really do mean a lot to me I guess...lol. I wish I was more eloquent and could explain it better.
Orange wrote: "Wearing a cape to a fight is one of the most impractical things you can do almost as impractical as wearing a mask."I'll just leave this here...
I love capes simply for the aesthetics, but they ain't doing much in the functionality department. It is the same with revealing costumes. I love the beauty and designs (as long as the lady isn't contorted into some overtly sexualized pose), but they aren't going to be too helpful on the battlefield/in a fight.This would be a good time to suggest the Escher Girls tumblr for the dos and don'ts of superheroine costuming and posing.
I've been gratified to see more strong hero women in tv and movies over the past few years, and not always in the skimpy outfits. Obviously there is still a long way to go, but there are far more awareness now than there were when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s. One minor thing I'd like to mention regarding outfits and appearances; it drives me bonkers when strong female leads wear high heels boots or shoes to battle. Whether it's a superhero in high heeled boots, or a tv detective trying to chase down a perp in 2" heels, it simply doesn't make sense. I wish the costume departments and artists would think for half a second about that. Or maybe they should try actually RUNNING in the outfits before they commit it to film/paper.
Aquaman is cool!!:) I've purchased several Aquaman comics from the New 52 series, and I love them. The graphics are great, and his story has depth. He has been revamped, and geez does he look good. He has a powerful trident, and can command sea creatures to help him. His wife Mera is also awesome! She can control water, and kick-butt. I would like to see a female superhero take center stage on the big screen. Maybe Wonder Woman. I don't know much about her, but I would like too.
I love superheroes so much I write superhero fiction, so I'm obviously biased. What I loved about them, what I've always loved, and what they no-so-coincidentally have in common with romance is that it's about the happy ending. The good guy does win. Doing the right thing pays off. Being kind is good. Being unkind is a character flaw.
And the best superhero stories show that heroes aren't perfect, that they're imperfect people who choose to help others because they want to alleviate the pain in the world.
As a kid growing up, Batman was my favorite because Batman also lost a parent when he was young. (in his case, both.) But while it obviously was a tragedy, Bruce Wayne showed it didn't mean his life was over. He used his tragedy to do his best to make sure no one else suffered as he suffered. (This was the O'Neil/Adams and later the Wein/Englehart eras.)
Batman and later others, offered hope to readers. The best superheroes stores do. (Watchmen excepted but that was supposed to be a commentary on why the real world doesn't have people in capes or spandex.)
It's why I love the genre even though their track record with female characters is so mixed. On the one hand, Lois Lane showed me the path to becoming a reporter and writer. OTOH, there are all those women in refrigerators. And, sadly, the two big publishers, until very recently, seemed to be going backward with their female characters. But lately, things seem to have shifted.
Er, that's longer than I meant to write.
In short, superheroes good. Romance good. Hope excellent.
Another spin of the superhero culture that I loved- and the girl rocks my socks off- Kick Ass.
There is something just so satisfying about seeing a 'little' girl wail upon all those bad guys
Neohgirl wrote: "One minor thing I'd like to mention regarding outfits and appearances; it drives me bonkers when strong female leads wear high heels boots or shoes to battle. Whether it's a superhero in high heeled boots, or a tv detective trying to chase down a perp in 2" heels, it simply doesn't make sense...."I always loved that Buffy the Vampire Slayer would change out of her platforms and sundresses and into jeans and sensible boots before going on patrol.
Alana ~ The Book Pimp wrote: "Another spin of the superhero culture that I loved- and the girl rocks my socks off- Kick Ass.
There is something just so satisfying about seeing a 'little' girl wail upon all those bad guys"
I totally agree! Great movie!!
Neohgirl wrote: "One minor thing I'd like to mention regarding outfits and appearances; it drives me bonkers when strong female leads wear high heels boots or shoes to battle. Whether it's a superhero in high heeled boots, or a tv detective trying to chase down a perp in 2" heels, it simply doesn't make sense. I wish the costume departments and artists would think for half a second about that. Or maybe they should try actually RUNNING in the outfits before they commit it to film/paper. "Yes, exactly! Even on Agents of SHIELD, Melinda May has a pretty high chunky heel on her combat boots when she's out in the field. So frustrating. Sure, she can kick ass and take names in high heeled shoes and has done so, but I don't understand why she has to have a high chunky heel on her combat boots. Being fashionable would seem like the least of May's worries.
Also, on Doctor Who I think it's interesting to note that Amy Pond never wears anything but practical shoes when she's running around with the Doctor. Karen Gillan apparently specifically requested that the costume department not put her in heels or any other impractical shoes, because it made no sense to wear those kind of shoes when she's adventuring. So that's pretty cool.
Can we also take a moment to salute the sidekicks who do half the work for none of the glory? The minions treated like cannon fodder regardless of their true skill set? (Romance novella rec: How to Date a Henchman)
Beth wrote: "I love capes simply for the aesthetics, but they ain't doing much in the functionality department. It is the same with revealing costumes. I love the beauty and designs (as long as the lady isn't c..."Guys, come on. It gets cold perching artistically on rooftops or flying through the upper atmosphere. The cape is the spandex wearer's alternative to tying a cardigan around your waist or shoulders in case you get chilly later (and considering how poorly Lycra would conceal your nipples' inevitable response to the cold... you'll need a cover up sooner or later).
My issue is with the open hair. If you have long hair, you know what just driving with the windows open can do to your hairstyle. How do you fly and maneuver and keep your tresses looking, well, super? And, hello, keeping your hair out of your nemesis' clutches during a fight?
PointyEars42 wrote: "Can we also take a moment to salute the sidekicks who do half the work for none of the glory? The minions treated like cannon fodder regardless of their true skill set? (Romance novella rec: [book..."
The henchmen are important but we have to remember that all evil geniuses have better halves. I'm thinking specifically of my hero Dr. Girlfriend... well, Mrs. Dr. The Monarch. Her love and support of The Monarch as well as her tolerance for his tunnel vision obsession of hunching is an inspiration for all. She's a role model for all female evil geniuses. She doesn't lose herself, but also her husband to add to her. Also, I just love cosplaying her.
Bree wrote: "Aquaman is cool!!:) I've purchased several Aquaman comics from the New 52 series, and I love them. The graphics are great, and his story has depth. He has been revamped, and geez does he look good...."Aquaman is totally badass! And his revamped image is very sexy ;) I'd love to see his tale made into a movie.
MaiaElven wrote: "Bree wrote: "Aquaman is cool!!:) I've purchased several Aquaman comics from the New 52 series, and I love them. The graphics are great, and his story has depth. He has been revamped, and geez does ..."Actually, DC announced an Aquaman movie a few weeks ago. It's scheduled for the 27th July 2018 if everything goes according to their plans. Not sure which version they’ll be doing, though. But Jason Momoa (from Game of Thrones) has been cast in the role. He’ll play the part in Dawn of Justice and the Justice League movies as well.
Those of you who love Aquaman, check out the Atlantis Chronicles by Peter David. It's a maxi-series never collected in trade but it's basically the family saga of the history of Atlantis, leading up to our Aquaman. It's pretty damn awesome and worth tracking down. As for capes, there was this one time when Dick Grayson complained about having to wear a cape as Batman. Dick, being a former aerialist, didn't like the way the cape restricted his movements. His pixie boot Robin cape being much shorter. :)
Geohyde wrote: "MaiaElven wrote: "Bree wrote: "Aquaman is cool!!:) I've purchased several Aquaman comics from the New 52 series, and I love them. The graphics are great, and his story has depth. He has been revamp..."That is cool news! I can't wait.
I'm just going to leave this here.
One thing in the superhero genre I think is overdone is the idea that a superhero can't have a love life because if the bad guys ever found out it could be used against him. And it's always a 'him'. It never deviates from being the male supe breaking the heart of the female love interest. So Peter Parker can't be with MJ, and Clark Kent can't be with Lois, etc. The only way I could stomach this in another superhero movie would be to flip the script and have a female supe break a man's heart to protect him. But of course, that will never happen, because when female superheroes DO manage to get a love interest, it's always another supe. Also, on the subject of female superhero costumes in movies, I consider myself a purist. By that, I mean that if the original comic has a female character in a sexy outfit that is not offensive (such as my beloved Wonder Woman), then any movies with that character should stick to the costume from the comic. I agree that WW is starting to look too much like Xena, who I love, but who is NOT Wonder Woman. Costume-wise I really like Black Widow's full leather(?) spandex (?) bodysuit. It doesn't show much skin and is impressively practical, but she's still sexy as hell.
Lastly, The Incredibles is my favorite Disney movie of all time. Not only is Helen built like a real woman, but she gets to be real hero just by doing what she does best: taking care of her family. I totally think of my mom every time I watch it.
So, what are some favorite Sup couple power romances? Like I personally think Batman/Catwoman and perfect and hot together? And who would you want to hook up? Anyone? I kinda think Superman and Lex Luther should have a fling, lol. it's actually a hard question to answer cuz almost everyone has already hooked up with everyone at least once esp. all the X-men. You could cross overs
Orange wrote: "So, what are some favorite Sup couple power romances? Like I personally think Batman/Catwoman and perfect and hot together? And who would you want to hook up? Anyone? I kinda think Superman and Lex..."All of that UST in early seasons of Smallville? Broken hearts = Arch Nemeses. So much more relatable than all the other reasons characters get set up as villains, because who hasn't been stunned by what evils are unleashed by a breakup.
Shelley wrote: "One thing in the superhero genre I think is overdone is the idea that a superhero can't have a love life because if the bad guys ever found out it could be used against him. And it's always a 'him'..."
Is that true?? That when female superheroes are in relationships with men, they are also always superheroes? That's a very interesting point. I know male superhero characters need a "damsel" to rescue but I wonder why female superheroes don't get damsels?
(Not that I mind getting rid of the trope. I'm just curious about why they're always paired up with another superhero.)
Is that true?? That when female superheroes are in relationships with men, they are also always superheroes? That's a very interesting point. I know male superhero characters need a "damsel" to rescue but I wonder why female superheroes don't get damsels?
(Not that I mind getting rid of the trope. I'm just curious about why they're always paired up with another superhero.)
Let me just say that this is an amazing times for women in comics. There are just so many titles (mainly Marvel and Image) that feature women and minorities. Some off the top of my head are:1. Ms. Marvel - Kamala Khan is a first generation Pakistani American super hero who is so reminiscent of the old Peter Parker. It's so refreshing to deal with this different perspective on being a teenage superhero.
2. She Hulk - I know this sounds ridiculous, but Jennifer Walters got her powers through a blood transfusion from her cousin 'the hulk'. This new comic deals mostly with her dealing with lawyer problems and the occasionally investigation using her powers. It's so great to see this female power fantasy. Who wouldn't want to smash a table when unfairly fired?
3. Captain Marvel - well know Ms. Marvel has claimed this title a few years ago. Great run lots of space adventures lately.
4. Young Avengers - this a short run comic that's come out in trades. It's stars a very diverse case (two male characters in a touching romance). It's written for teens, but I enjoyed it immensely. (it stars kid Loki nuff said)
Those are just some amazing comics that are being made today with diverse superheroes.
As far as comic book romances let me say my favorite: Rogue & Gambit
Anja wrote: Is that true?? That when female superheroes are in relationships with men, they are also always superheroes? That's a very interesting point. I know male superhero characters need a "damsel" to rescue but I wonder why female superheroes don't get damsels?Actually, I think Batwoman is in a relationship with the female Captain of Gotham's Major Crimes Unit. Or at least she was at one point. I am not really up to date with that storyline. But there was a lot of mutual saving going on at one time. ;)
As for strong female superheroes, there are quite a few in the DC universe who have solo titles as well.
Aside from Wonder Woman we have Batgirl, Supergirl, Batwoman and World's Finest (Huntress and Power Girl). I also think the new Gotham Academy has a large female cast. I know they aren't as exciting as some of the stuff Marvel has brought out recently (especially now that we have a female Thor and a shapeshifting/gender changing Loki) but some of those series have a long history of pushing boundaries.
Orange wrote: "Sorry, it's just that as a fan I get very defensive and upset over the "Wonder Woman" issue. It's upsetting, she's almost as old as Batman who has had what, 6 or 7 feature films, and now after 74 y..."Wonder Woman is an Amazon. You can't get much more warrior culture than that. There is precedent for the leather Xena-ish outfit in Wonder Woman history, as well. Just be happy they didn't go with the bondage sex slave Star Saphire version.
There's a part in the Justice League(or maybe it was Justice League Unlimited) where Wonder Woman is laying in to Batman, asking him what's his problem, why he doesn't want to persue their relationship and Bats starts giving the whole, "My enemies will hurt you to get at me," speech. Diana crushes a statute that's decorating the building they're standing on and is like, "They can try." I loved that. Absolutly loved that, because it showed how stupid the whole reasoning is. I thought they made a good pairing and I really wanted that series to keep going.
Geohyde wrote: "Anja wrote: Is that true?? That when female superheroes are in relationships with men, they are also always superheroes? That's a very interesting point. I know male superhero characters need a "da..."
I'm curious though if when she's dating a man, he's always also in a position of power. Are there any dominant female superhero in power paired up with a man who has no powers? And if there aren't, why not?
I'm curious though if when she's dating a man, he's always also in a position of power. Are there any dominant female superhero in power paired up with a man who has no powers? And if there aren't, why not?
Anja wrote: "I'm curious though if when she's dating a man, he's always also in a position of power. Are there any dominant female superhero in power paired up with a man who has no powers? And if there aren't, why not? "I think it's that old notion that men have to, like a white knight, save the damsel in distress from some big dragon... the male superheros can have 'muggle' love interests because they can continue to 'save' them and reinforce that theme. But women... even 'super' women are not allowed to 'save' a man. They can have a 'super' love interest that is strong enough to dominate them (not saying I agree with this now) that is strong enough to work with them; women can aid men but cannot be the sole ones to save them because that would make men look like dickless pussies... and you know how well that thought (even these days) goes over.
'Super' women have come a long way, and I agree they should be able to have a love interest that isn't some great power in and of himself, but we still have a long way to go before I think we'll see that concept go mainstream.
Although, contrary to everything above... I'll throw another wrench into the forray:
the movie My Super Ex-Girlfriend. Discuss. ;)
"Anja wrote: "I'm curious though if when she's dating a man, he's always also in a position of power. Are there any dominant female superhero in power paired up with a man who has no powers? And if ..."The ancient Greek myths were pretty brutal about mortals who dated the gods. If the god were a goddess the mortal guy would always end up disabled somehow--blind, crippled, turned into a poodle. Don't mess with that imbalance of power.
Tiffany wrote: "The ancient Greek myths were pretty brutal about mortals who dated the gods. If the god were a goddess the mortal guy would always end up disabled somehow--blind, crippled, turned into a poodle. Don't mess with that imbalance of power. "Ohhh! Good point! Kinda odd that they exalted and praised the children of such unions (Hercules, Achilles, Perseus) but not the initial mortal involved with the Gods themselves. Perhaps it's the 'birth' of slut shaming? ;)
Alana- that's actually a really interesting idea. That slot shaming may have started back then. In some ways, from my limited knowledge, I always thought there was more serial freedom than there is now. But during that time they also celebrated gods and goddesses of vicinity. This is a very interesting idea to me. Thanks! :)
What do you guys think about romance in the superhero genre? Women's roles in it? Points for us to discuss if we can get our podcast together this month, which will center on the general theme of our month's books in pop culture!