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Why Rorschach refuse to remain silent about Ozymadias conspiracy?

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Jonnathan I mean the refusal itself obviously suits Rorschach personality, but I want to know exactly WHY?, given the available information.


message 2: by T. (new) - rated it 5 stars

T. M. Brenner Because all he cares about is justice. He has a sick and twisted viewpoint of what justice is, but his idea of justice in this case is telling the truth about the faked alien invasion.


message 3: by T. (new) - rated it 5 stars

T. M. Brenner Oh, and because Alan Moore wrote it. He generally stays true to the characters regardless of the outcome.


Efrén Ayón Because, in a way, he sees the world in a black and white perspective and is incapable, by choice rather than a mental discapacity, to accept that moral dilemma.


Jonnathan And what did he cried when Dr. Manhattan was about to kill him?.


Efrén Ayón Because of that self-imposed incapacity. It was a contradiction to all of Rorschach's principles, he just couldn't bare it.


message 7: by One (last edited Apr 05, 2017 03:18AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

One Flew "Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise."

The line sums up Rorschach's convictions, never compromise. The whole chapter which reveals his backstory is the explanation of what formed his resolve, determination and probable psychosis.

As to why he cried when Dr Manhattan was about to kill him, I would presume it was obvious. The choice for Rorschach was between death or justice, for him it wasn't a hard choice and it had to be death.


message 8: by Gary (last edited Oct 28, 2014 09:51PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Gary
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No.”
The "never compromise" statement is a big component, but there's another level to Rorschach: there's no place for him in Ozymandias' "paradise." In a world that isn't fatalistic and corrupt, full of degenerates and weakness, there's no one to ask him for help, and so he never gets to reject them. Ultimately, that desire to reject the world that rejected him is the root of his motivation.


Bryan Although Rorschach was definitely a troubled soul, I don't actually disagree with his refusal of Ozymandias' plot. Of course, in the real world we didn't have Dr. Manhattan, but we still somehow made it through the eighties without nuking each other. I don't accept Ozymandias' assertion that the only way to avoid mutually assured destruction was to murder half of New York City. I don't feel that Rorschach was being that extreme in this case.


Robert Wright Though Rorschach has demonstrable mental health issues, he is correct in his refusal of Veidt's plan. Veidt is equally, in his own way, mentally unbalanced, as his power and self-perceived superiority have led to his "for many to survive, some must be sacrificed" plan.

As to why he cries at the end, I haven't really pondered that before. Good question. Guess I'll have to go back to the source before answering.

I suspect, given his lack of emotional affect in much of the contemporary scenes in the book, it may have ties back to his childhood or simply be the emotional floodgates opening at the last moment on someone who was so self contained.


message 11: by Mike (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mike Chronley Rorshach was created to help his 'original' personality cope with the horror of the world (especially the child murder thing). By accepting that there is a black and white view of justice, that life is a never ending struggle to erase evil, he survives and continues his fight - longer than his fellow heroes.

Everyone else is stunned by Veidt's plan, but Rorshach understands immediately must stop something so completely evil from happening. His 'normal' persona understands that this is for the best of humanity, so the internal struggle between the two is why he freaks out.

Out in the snow, we see him lose it (even cry in the movie) because he knows that he cannot live in the world without Rorshach, but Rorshach will never stop trying to fix things as long as he has control. Ultimately forcing the Dr. to destroy him could be seen as walter kovacks winning the fight, or Rorshach deciding he cannot live in a world where evil creates peace.



This gets a little more complicated when you consider his carefully prepared journal and notes, which were sent before embarking on the final mission.

Considering how carefully Rorschach seems to plan everything - perhaps he knows that Walter, his weaker persona, will tell everyone that about the journal in order to help the peace process. Since the Journal is his last chance at 'justice' Rorschach forces himself to be destroyed before anyone can learn enough to uncover his original plan. It's his final victory against Veidt I guess.


message 12: by Will (new) - rated it 5 stars

Will If you have read The Night of the Generals (not the stupid movie), recall the character of Grau. The top brass try to pressure him into forgetting about investigating the murders; in the middle of a war, what does "a body lying around" matter? He refuses to knuckle under. Rorschach found THREE MILLION bodies lying around. He refused to simply let the murderer get away with it.


Benjamin Wetmore Will knows what's up.

Rorschach makes it pretty clear that, as he's leaving, he's about to tell the world what's going on. There's a lot of context from the novel that people are ignoring here. He doesn't think the ends justify the means, even if it might mean peace as the world unites against a common enemy, it still means killing millions of innocent people. That's why he can't live with it, and that's why he walks away.

I suspect he's crying because he's realizing he's dying alone, and that his friends, who even though they were awkward misfits were at least people who agreed with him, are now united against him. He's the sole voice of reason and morality in a group now obsessed with utilitarian ends.

Rorschach is the hero, and he'd rather die with the millions than be complicit in the murder.


message 14: by Mike (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mike Chronley The Question is why Rorshach lets everyone know, he could have easily played along and then revealed the whole plot later. Why does he choose to force them to destroy him?


Matthew Williams Bryan wrote: "Although Rorschach was definitely a troubled soul, I don't actually disagree with his refusal of Ozymandias' plot. Of course, in the real world we didn't have Dr. Manhattan, but we still somehow m..."

It's a good thing we didn't ave Manhattan in the real world. In the Watchmen universe, Manhattan on the US' side meant that the Soviets were pushed into a corner and became desperate. Which is why they chose to come out swinging after Manhattan left Earth, invaded Afghanistan and putting the US on a war footing.

Ozymandias' decision to stage a hoax alien invasion was due to this more than anything. War was not inevitable for its own sake, but due to the fact that was became inevitable due to the involvement of super heroes in domestic and foreign affairs.


message 16: by Gary (last edited Nov 02, 2014 06:27PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Gary Mike wrote: "The Question is why Rorshach lets everyone know, he could have easily played along and then revealed the whole plot later. Why does he choose to force them to destroy him?"

By the time Rorschach forces Dr. Manhattan to kill him, Ozymandias' plan has already succeeded. The world that Ozymandias has created is not one that Rorschach wants to live in. Rorschach wants to be a force of justice/revenge in a world that is doomed, and his ultimate revenge will be rejecting that world when--he thinks--it will inevitably come to him for help.

Ozymandias' world will never do that. Or, at least, it appears that it won't in that moment. The irony (or one of them) of the story is that Rorschach's journal might be sufficient to tear down the world that Ozymandias created. Ironically ironic is that if Rorschach lived to present his journal it probably wouldn't have the same persuasive possibilities--Walter Kovacs being something of an unreliable spokesperson. However, his journal alone, might reveal the whole conspiracy, and set the nations of the world at odds again, along with the social and economic instability that perpetual "readiness" breeds, and that Rorschach ultimately needs to justify himself.

Moore hints that that is what happens throughout the piece. In probably the most obvious symbolic way by naming Veidt "Ozymandias" in the first place. The Shelley poem ends with a kind of post-Holocaust wasteland image:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”



message 17: by Gary (last edited Nov 03, 2014 02:28PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Gary Catie wrote: "Watchmen is a satire and criticism of the American Dream as a concept. To that end it's also a criticism of nationalism and the assumption that getting a job, getting married, and having 2.5 kids is desirable for everyone. It's deliberate that the only superhero who comes close to marriage and babies is Silk Spectre I and she's desperately unhappy with it even though she loves Laurie."

My first thought was to reject the family aspects of your comments, but as I think on it, I suspect you're on to something.

I think the satire of The American Dream aspect is definitely a factor, but when it comes to family I suspect it's not so much a satire directly, but of how the overall socio-political structure destroys what are, essentially, core human values. That is, The Watchmen is a world in which the social changes of the 60's never happened. The U.S. didn't back out of Vietnam, Richard Nixon is still president. The Leave it to Beaver idealism is in place, and Moore shows it for the deeply troubling idealism/expectation that it is, but as part of the larger world of hypocrisy, moral corruption and basic human deprivation that it masks.

As a child, Walter Kovacs is like some demonic version of Opie Taylor or Dennis the Menace. Where those characters are country and suburban ideals, Walter is urban, abused, neglected, isolated and bullied. He turns into a violent revenge fantasy. He sees things in black & white--but mostly black. Only he is pure and clean.

However, by the end of The Watchmen, Daniel and Laurie suddenly show up transformed into the ideal couple: blonde, fit, reconciled or ready to reconcile with their parental figures. They've become Sam and Sandra Hollis--uniting Mason Holis, Dan's spiritual father, with Sally Jupiter, his unrequited love.

Even Dr. Manhattan goes off to create his own human beings, having found the miracle of humanity more fascinating than the complexity of the quantum reality he had been absorbed by.

In the context of the Laurie/Daniel relationship, we should probably also note that Kovacs/Rorshach appears to have sexual feelings for Dreiberg. He and Nite Owl were "partners" before Dreiberg quit, and it's intimated that their "friendship" was more than just a working relationship to Kovacs/Rorschach. Rorschach is socially awkward, and deeply troubled, so his feelings for Dreiberg are sublimated and repressed, but several of his comments, his extended "holding hands" handshake with Dreiberg, and his hostility towards Laurie/Silk Specter all indicate Rorschach's conflicted feelings for Dreiberg/Nite Owl. It's apparent by the end of the original limited series that Nite Owl has taken up with Silk Specter (whose very name is a double entendre for the looming fear of femininity/female anatomy) and turned away from his erstwhile "partner." Nite Owl's speech towards the end of the last comic in which he chooses to let the results of Ozymandias' plot go unreported could be read from Rorschach's POV as a rejection.

That's probably worth crying about.


Derek He says, more than once:

There is good, and there is evil. Evil must be punished. Even in the face of armageddon, I will not compromise on this.

He saw things in black and white, and that guy refuses to back down.


Andrea Leoni to me Rorschach had no other choice, He would've never lied to Veidt, out of cowardness, and be deceitful. And to me, at some level he wouldn't want to be the one to disrupt the new world order...


The Dark Knight Rorschach himself was a silent character as far as socially, he wanted to deal with Ozymandias himself not let anyone else know. Walter Kovacs is a very mentally disturbed mind, biting the one kids ear off was what set him on his path of what I think could possibly be Asperger's disease.


message 21: by Ahmad (last edited Dec 05, 2014 05:15PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ahmad Catie wrote: "This is going to be long and I'm sure someone else has said it on the internet somewhere because this thing was published before I was born.

Watchmen is a satire and criticism of the American Drea..."


Great post, thanks!


Jesse Callaghan Gary wrote: "
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No.”
The..."


This is an interesting interpretation. Cheers!


message 23: by Bloodorange (last edited Apr 23, 2015 08:04AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Bloodorange Mike wrote: "Everyone else is stunned by Veidt's plan, but Rorshach understands immediately must stop something so completely evil from happening. His 'normal' persona understands that this is for the best of humanity, so the internal struggle between the two is why he freaks out...."

I agree. Also, if someone gives themselves that degree of license to manage the affairs of mankind, dispose of many people in the name of one's vision of peace, and attain their goals through fear - they are dangerous and must be exposed/ rid of. *Especially* if their plans appear logical. Who knows what can possibly come next?

Hmm. This seems like a critique of the U.S. foreign polict. Who knows Moore's views on the American interventionism?


message 24: by Tom (new) - rated it 5 stars

Tom Trott This was always one of my favourite moments in Watchmen! "Never compromise." Especially when he seems to think it's a joke at first that they'll let Adrian get away with it.


Animeballsdeep69 the best way I could sum up Rorshach ideologies in one sentence is; Rorshach doesn't care about the good, he only cares about the evil being punished


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