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Politics > I'm tired of taking sides

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message 1: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments I don't know about each of you individually, but I dislike thoroughly how politics are handle here in America. Its as if its a game or something, democrat and republican. One night I tuned into a "news" program and got two airheads fighting over a simple matter that could be easily solved if they would calm down. Its almost like Hollywood but these people are supposed to know what they are talking about. Anyway I think you shouldn't be Republican or Democrat, I actually think you should vote on which ever candidate makes the most sense to you. I would go even further to add that we are in need of a new political party, one that will take the best of both groups, and create new ideas on solving our modern problems.


message 2: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Ain't gonna happen. As much as I wish it could.


message 3: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Why not? Explain?


message 4: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments But the world is so much more fun with fights...


message 5: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Because not enough rational people exist yet. The majority of America wouldn't be able to do it. Think, we only have 6 states out of 50 that have gay marriage. The only reason it's not all 50 is that people can't let go of their prejudice.


message 6: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments I mean, I love when it's peaceful, but without people thinking and debating constantly, tehre would be no new ideas. Plus, if you don't get angry, you obviously aren't passionate about your beliefs.


message 7: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Well it may not just be prejudices, though I do believe thats part of it. Religion makes a huge difference on those things. Not to me Marley(though I have been close to hitting someone once). Lauren lets examine that first thought, are people who don't support gay marriage irrational?(again realize I am not disagreeing with you I just like to think about different ideas. It is important to look at issues from all sides). What if to them you seem irrational, to some it makes no sense to have gay marriage, what good will it do them? Yes I have heard the 'happiness theory' but please explain your position on this. Why is gay marriage, in itself important?


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

How in the world is being anti gay marriage rational?


message 9: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"What if to them you seem irrational, to some it makes no sense to have gay marriage, what good will it do them? Yes I have heard the 'happiness theory' but please explain your position on this. Why is gay marriage, in itself important?"

I'm stealing this from Star Trek

"'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged."

- Quoting Judge Aaron Satie (TNG: "The Drumhead")

Even if one person is denied what the rest of us take for granted, humanity is damaged.


message 10: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Marley- Anger and respectful debate are two different things. In one a man is open to listening, in another he just wants to be right(this is my personal theory). It can peaceful, but its up to the two debaters.


message 11: by Jack (last edited Aug 26, 2009 04:34PM) (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments J- I said I'm look at this issue from all sides(try it sometime even though it is very hard). To be open-minded(truly open-minded) you have to be willing to be wrong, and I am. I have said nothing about being against gay marriage or for it.



message 12: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments Passion leads to anger, you need passion to dabate what you believe in...I'm not saying bitch-slap the poor sap, just make sure you get your point across.


message 13: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Well of course get your point across, but that does not require a shouting contest.


message 14: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments No, it doesn't. I never said it did. But, sometimes it comes to that.


message 15: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
And your opinion of my answer, Jack?


message 16: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 26, 2009 04:41PM) (new)

Jack -_-

You say look at both sides. I have. There's no way that the other side is rational or fair about it on that subject.


message 17: by Jack (last edited Aug 26, 2009 04:43PM) (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Here it is(it is important to remember I'm not against gay-marriage I am simply showing the logic behind a person who does not believe it is right).

You are right our freedoms are so very precious. It seems we are at one of the few times in history where we are completely in control of our lives. But it is important to look at it from the 'irrational'(anti-gay) mind's thought on this.

Some rights are indeed denied to us, not because we are deprived, but because these rights are unethical. You believe murder and rape are wrong? Of course you do. They are fundamentally wrong, why are they wrong? Because your mind tells you so. If it were not so you would go around killing at will. Yet what of the sociopath? He has no feeling that murder is wrong. So is it to him? No(I in no way say murder is right I am saying how a person may justify murder). Okay in the same Religious people believe that gay marriage is wrong, why? Because they think that the traditional family is important to hold together and their mind(influenced by biblical thought) considers it unethical.

In the end, all I am saying is that you should not be so quick to determine what is rational and what is isn't. People have a reason for believing things in their own mind(whether they really are good reasons is another matter entirely).


message 18: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
J. He's doing what I do to other people. Baiting.


message 19: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments Laws are made to protect people, why is making gay marriage illegal protecting people?


message 20: by [deleted user] (new)

Jack, you lose. Religion. Religion does not belong in government. Again, it is ridiculous to be anti gay marriage.


message 21: by [deleted user] (new)

Lauren wrote: "J. He's doing what I do to other people. Baiting. "

I know. He's just doing it badly.


message 22: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"You believe murder and rape are wrong? Of course you do. They are fundamentally wrong, why are they wrong? Because your mind tells you so."

They are not fundamentally wrong. They are relatively wrong. They are considered wrong only because we know society cannot function with them being right, so it's drilled into us that they are wrong. Not only now, but our pre-human ancestors. Animals that liked to kill for fun more likely died fighting and didn't pass on their genes. Part genetic, part society. But not absolute.


message 23: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
J wrote: "Lauren wrote: "J. He's doing what I do to other people. Baiting. "

I know. He's just doing it badly."


hahahahahhahaha


message 24: by Jack (last edited Aug 26, 2009 04:53PM) (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Wait how am I baiting?(tell me what baiting is exactly). I am asking people to question both sides of arguments. If you want to say religion has no place then consider what Lauren just said. It is all relative whether religion belongs in government, to you it doesn't, to me it does.


message 25: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Not exactly what Lauren said but it does apply. Truth is relative if you view life logically,


message 26: by [deleted user] (new)

Religion is different for everyone. It's ridiculous for it to have too much impact on government. Ahahahaha.


message 27: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments Not relative at all, laws are laws, they are there, whether you like them or not, you can try to get rid of them all you want, but no one's gonna get rid of seperation of church and sate, they'll try and get around it, but never take it away.


message 28: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
You're just egging us on, asking question to get a response or make us try to prove yourselves. Sort of.

No. There are no absolute rights or wrong. But society has shown that a theocracy cannot function to the best of the needs of the people. Ergo, Religion and government shouldn't mix.


message 29: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments I know, but right now, I doesn't seem as though they are trying to remove it.


message 30: by Jack (last edited Aug 26, 2009 05:07PM) (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments Again I don't care if I'm right. I just want people to look at things from different view-points. Gay marriage is right because in a society where truth is relativistic then happiness and freedom are key. You, in theory, have no right to say gay marriage is wrong. Denying this right is denying them American rights, especially the 'Pursuit of Happiness' part.

I can argue for both. I don't care about being right. I just like seeing how you think on each issue.


message 31: by Marley (new)

Marley (Marleyme95) | 5270 comments Hmmm....oh dear.


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

Why is "In God We Trust" still on money? I never understood that. We aren't allowed to have an established religion.


message 33: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
X)


message 34: by Lauren (last edited Aug 26, 2009 05:08PM) (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"1985745 Why is "In God We Trust" still on money? I never understood that. We aren't allowed to have an established religion. "

Originally e pluribus unum I believe, it was changed to In God We Trust during the Cold War, against "godless communism." It was also added to the pledge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_o...


message 35: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments The founding fathers were comprised of Deists and Christians, God was not out of the picture at that point.


message 36: by [deleted user] (new)

But why hasn't it been taken out?


message 37: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
The Foundering Fathers were mostly Deists. Jefferson would have been an atheist had he known about evolution.


message 38: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments because the majority (christians) would throw a hissy fit


message 39: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
J wrote: "But why hasn't it been taken out?"

Too many people think it's a an original piece of their Christian nation.


message 40: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
People actually think our laws are based on the Bible, when only 2 of the ten commandments are laws really.


message 41: by [deleted user] (new)

I need your opinion. This is off topic, but it's about a lot of what we talk about in this group. SO:

I have a younger half sister who lives with my dad and goes to church and participates in small groups and all of that. I'm an atheist. I have no problem with my parents knowing it, but I'm worried about telling her? She's eleven, going into 6th grade, and is very sheltered.




message 42: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Jack wrote: "The founding fathers were comprised of Deists and Christians, God was not out of the picture at that point."

In fact, our Declaration is extremely secular for it's time, only referring to Nature's God (Deist concept) once or twice.


message 43: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"I have a younger half sister who lives with my dad and goes to church and participates in small groups and all of that. I'm an atheist. I have no problem with my parents knowing it, but I'm worried about telling her? She's eleven, going into 6th grade, and is very sheltered."

She might not understand, if she's that sheltered, the impact of what you would tell her. But who would she go tell, is the more important issue. Unless, of course, she's been taught that atheists go to Hell, in that case she might because scared for you.


message 44: by [deleted user] (new)

Her mother is a major reason why I don't say anything. She already thinks I'm a bad influence.


message 45: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Exactly. If her mother is the type of person that won't let you see her if she knew you were an atheist, then you could hold off until she could learn to keep it a secret from her mom.


message 46: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments My advice is tell her what you believe and why you believe(don't tell her she has to believe it as well). When she gets a bit older she will decide for herself what to believe, just don't force it on her at this point in her life.


message 47: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"Also The Treaty of Tripoli actually says the country is in no way a Christian nation. "

Exactly. Article 11, signed by Adams as President, In No way are we a Christian nation. No one seems to remember this little fact.


message 48: by Jack (new)

Jack Osider | 19 comments I agree people love to make up their own history, it gets very annoying.


message 49: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
And they make it up to support their arguments. People claiming Jefferson was a Christian, how stupid does it get.


message 50: by [deleted user] (new)

My dad wouldn't let her mom NOT let me go over there, because he only gets to see me twice a month.

I'm a liiiiitle worried about who she would tell at the church. You know, the youth leaders and stuff. Then I'd be bombarded. And pastors intimidate me (x


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