21st Century Literature discussion
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There But For The
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There but for the: Amuse Bouche (Nothing too Ripe...No Spoilers) (Jul 2019)
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On our Charcuterie we have some aged reviews, both domestic and international; and, commentary accompaniments, both honeyed and pickled*, from assorted magazines and publishing houses. I do hope they are to your liking, a few may contain some ripe (spoilers) notes, so do let your eyes consume them at your own discretion.*I couldn't find much of the critical pickle persuasion, what I did find were a few amazon reviews. I hope that it will suffice. If not, like Genevieve Lee, I'll get to it when I can to find more, if necessary, instead wanting to focus on the discussion in here. I am positive we will have some contrasting points of view on all things considered about Ali Smith and this novel.
AGED REVIEWS
- NYTimes: Charles McGrath (2011)
- NYTimes Book Review: Sylvia Brownrigg (2011)
- The Guardian: Alex Clark (2011)
- The Guardian: Nicholas Lezard (2012)
- The Washington Post: Heller McAlpin (2011)
- The Telegraph: Lucy Daniel (2011)
- Huffpost: Nina Sankovitch (2011)
HONEYED ACCOLADES
Time magazine,
A beguiling ode to human connection shot through with existential wonder and virtuosic wordplay. If you fell for Jennifer Egan’s A Visit From the Goon Squad, you’ll appreciate Smith’s formal twists and turns—and there’s more where There came from.Lucy Scholes, Daily Beast…
It is with this word play, repetition, rhyme, and rhythm that Smith proves herself one of the ‘cleverest’—a British author at the top of her game who combines eccentricity and originality in equal measure. And, as I discovered when I heard her reading from the opening pages last week with a cadence rarely found in a fiction writer, There but for the is a story quite literally crying out to be heard. Here we have a novel, and a novelist, delighting in the joy of language itself.A-, Entertainment Weekly…
Ali Smith’s weird and wonderful puzzle of a fifth novel is ostensibly about a dinner-party guest who locks himself in a spare bedroom and refuses to come out, inadvertently sparking a media frenzy. But the book—packed with jokes and random facts—is really about small stuff like life and death and the meaning of human existence, all told with sharp humor and real insight. The novel itself is a riddle with no solution, which is exactly the point: When you reluctantly come to the end, you can’t help going back to the beginning, trying to unravel this beautifully elusive book’s mysterious spell.The AV Club…
Masterful. . . . Rapidly gains momentum, turning a simple tale into something ambitious and grounded. . . . As much as There But For The is about the connection and memory in a narrative sense, its love of language is even more impressive. Smith uses a constant internal monologue to depict her characters, without external narration, and they jump from word to word, pun to pun, or in one case, conversation with the imagined dead to conversation with the living. The wordplay is often a delight on its own, but Smith also uses it to great effect for revelations in the story.Kirkus Reviews…
With its shifting points of view, Smith (The First Person: and Other Stories, 2009, etc.) displays a virtuoso gift for channeling her character’s inner voices. Happily, the book manages to wear its profundity lightly. . . . [An] offbeat exploration of the human need to connect with others.
PICKLES
Be kind, it's slim pickings out there. Smh. I am using spoiler tags here for the sole purpose of warning you that some of these are especially ripe-you have been warned.
Amazon UK :
A reviewer, tpryan wrote of his 1-star rating (10/11/2014), What's the fuss about?
Can't understand the rave reviews. If you like tortuous prose, pretentious turns of phrase and 'look how clever I am' writing then this author's for you. Empty, meaningless non- stories. I admit I didn't finish it. I simply couldn't as I lost concentration on each page. The premise of a little known dinner guest barricading themselves in your house and refusing to leave is interesting enough. But believe me anyone would have got rid of him in some way. That they don't is what makes the book so implausible and irritating. A writer to avoid.A reviewer, R. A. Davidson, wrote of their 1-star review (6/30/2011), Insufferable People Talking Insufferable Twaddle (view spoiler) 0/10 Amazon, US:
A Vine Customer Reviewer, Julie Merilatt wrote of her 2-star rating, Ugh...
Though I enjoyed Hotel World, I don't think I will waste any more time on Smith in the future because I really feel like I wasted my time on There But For The. Miles has locked himself into a spare bedroom of his host's house during a dinner party and the ensuing months are all narrated from four separate stream-of-conscious perspectives. The senile octogenarian and the ten year-old girl are especially tedious. And one is never given the satisfaction as to WHY Miles has done what he has done. The lack of quotation marks and paragraph breaks is infuriating. I don't know if this extreme stylization is a British thing or if Smith is just trying to be uber clever, but it doesn't work here. The few redeeming qualities the book had were rendered obsolete with the entire second half of the book. Enough said.A Vine Customer Reviewer wrote of her 2-star rating, Nope...
I hate giving bad reviews, but I just could not get into Ali Smith's There But For The. Writers have it hard- they slave away and then are subjected to the reviews of the common folk. But, then again, that is in the job description. The good with the bad:
The Good:
- The premise, of a man locked in a stranger's guestroom, is quite interesting
- The concept behind the narrative strands is also interesting, although not necessarily well-executed
The Bad:
- I just could not get into it; I'm all for a character study or experimenting with narration, but I just felt bored through most of the text. Nothing grabbed me- not the plot, dialogue, characters, description, anything.
Meet the Chef and creator of this literary meal we are about to gorge ourselves upon…Ali Smith.In Noted’s The Listener: Ali Smith Interview, Carrie Wilton discusses the genesis of There But For The towards the very bottom of the article.
This was published only day before yesterday. How lucky was I? The Guardian’s The Books that made me: Ali Smith
Recommendation of other books to read by Ali Smith can be found on this website FanFiction: Ali Smith
Of course, for all things Ali Smith, her tried and true Wikipedia Page: Ali Smith
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Hugh wrote: "Thanks for kicking all of these off Ami. I can't promise to re-read the book for this discussion, but I can probably remember enough to chip in. Ali Smith is one of my favourite writers - I am only..."Oh, my gosh, Hugh! You really do have an affinity for Ali Smith. Yes, please do jump in when you are able. From what I gather, there’s a socioeconomic/political bent to her writing; the consciousness of both being put through a sieve with great care, coming out the other end in one steady stream at the center of it all. At least this is the way I saw her approach to writing. The premise is bizarre enough; however, in the next few courses, I’m curious to read, from those who will partake in this discussion, how they find her writing-if they liked it, or found it wearing by the end?
While our current read is not as politically heavy, in my research for both author and novel, her “Seasons Quartet” a post-Brexit tetralogy received quite the accolades from both readers and critics, it came up quite a bit as did a few others, but these stuck to my mind.
She’s funny, so damn funny, I laughed out loud quite a bit in “There But...” Smh.
I'll put on the table a divergent view from Hugh's on Ali Smith. One of the strongest readers in my f2f book group suggested her
Autumn
for our July read. Since many usual attendees were off in various directions that day, I had been deep in finishing Tocqueville and
Identity:
and Murnane, all a bit heavy for summer reading, we sort of said "great." Well, she went home, started
Autumn
, and about a third of the way in, came back and warned us she had no intent to finish the book, which apparently felt to her rather like reading for some university literature class. I have checked out both Autumn and this one from my local library. Given other things in my life, I don't know how far I'll get with either. The conceit opening this one feels forced to me at the moment, but maybe I'm not in a playful enough mode. Or am I too deep into U.S. politics to appreciate that in the U.K.?
I do love the effort you are putting into this discussion, Ami.
Ami wrote: I’m curious to read, from those who will partake in this discussion, how they find her writing-if they liked it, or found it wearing by the end?
She’s funny, so damn funny, I laughed out loud quite a bit in “There But...”
Thank you for the guidance of my first Ali Smith read. I have already gained much more understanding and depth than I came up with on my own. I have enjoyed the writing but did tire during the grandmother narration near the end of the book. Was this a timeline or character issue? I don't know. One of the reviews (WPost?) talked about assessing a book by looking at p62. Funny, my first note for discussion is on p.61! I find Smith very funny and look forward to finding even more healthy laughs through the eyes of other readers. Ami, I love the discussion format and extras that are brought by your leadership.
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Thanks for all the resources, Ami, and your usual creative passion for reading/discussing!
Lily, what defines one of the "strongest readers" in your f2f group? Just curious if that means someone who reads a lot, someone who is good at discussing literature, something other, ? (Incidentally, I was 25% into Fates and Furies earlier this week and about to bail... I decided to stick with it and I'm so glad I did!)
Lily wrote: "I'll put on the table a divergent view from Hugh's on Ali Smith. One of the strongest readers in my f2f book group suggested her Autumn for our July read. Since many usual attendees..."Lily wrote: "I'll put on the table a divergent view from Hugh's on Ali Smith. One of the strongest readers in my f2f book group suggested her Autumn for our July read. Since many usual attendees..."
Go ahead. Bring those diverging points to light! Thank you, in fact, I had forgotten what little I had procured as far as criticisms go. It seems there aren't many professional reviews finding much fault with "TBFT." Like I stated in my post, it was mostly in reviews left by readers where I found legitimate doubts about both author and novel. I really couldn't even count on the GR reviews, believe it or not...maybe I overlooked some?
I don't want to divulge too much about my own thoughts in here, what I will say is there is merit, at least for me, in what some found irksome about the novel. On the other hand, while I am in that playful mode, "TBFT" consisted of a little more work on my part than I had expected. So, there's that. It's not the beach read, I was thinking it to be. LOL! To quote a GR friend, definitely not sorbet for my brain, but delectable enough. :P
I enjoy wry humor and satire, I'm maybe even craving it, wanting to shed the weight of a recent book I have read that continues to linger on my mind. We may be on the same wavelength as to heavy summer reading, unfortunately; but, it's been working for me; some just catch you a little off guard every now and then.
Tell me about this conceit opening in the next course, even as brief as your comment here, if need be. I think I have an idea of what you are referring to, I just want to make sure. I was curious about the question Marc has asked too... what do you consider a strong reader?
U.S. politics/U.K...only you know the answer to that! I think everybody is exhausted. LOL! If they can take to the streets in droves because of how displeased/pleased they are with our politics, then I owe it to them to remain wired, personally; of course, my job doesn't really give me a choice in that matter...I'm obligated. Smh. Okay, back to happy...
I have the time at present, so I was happy to do it. I'm glad you're pleased. Thank you! :)
Sarah wrote: "Ami wrote: I’m curious to read, from those who will partake in this discussion, how they find her writing-if they liked it, or found it wearing by the end?
She’s funny, so damn funny, I laughed o..."
Aw, welcome, Sarah! :)
It's my first as well. Let's see where Smith takes us in the next few courses. I'm happy to know you're well equipped to proceed with the discussion. Looking forward to discussing more with you about the rest of the book and what you have jotted down for pages 61-62!
Hey, thanks! I thought it was only fitting. Okay, I'm going to go make my rounds with our other guests, you let me know if you need anything.
Cheers!
Ami wrote: "I was curious about the question Marc has asked too... what do you consider a strong reader? ..."Interesting to me that this is the question you and Marc choose to ask. I suspect there are a number of categories of "strong readers" that I could identify. Within my f2f book group, different members are strong in varying ways and relative to various genres. This particular person has an oversized coffee table strewn/stacked with any number of the types and examples of the books we read here on this board -- current, often award winners, diverse; a woman with whom it is apparent she and/or her family have read among them and discussed them and will often bring knowledge about them to the group. She is not, to my knowledge, particularly a reader of classics. Nor does she often draw upon reviews for her opinions about books.
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What I don't expect: conventional plot development - her plots can seem frustratingly random at times, but there is usually more of a plan than is necessarily obvious on a first read!
She comes at the story from left field. Takes a bit for me to get oriented, but it's clever and fun and so far worth it.
For me Ali Smith can do no wrong. Her books are like a puzzle; if you work a little bit you'll have fun and seeing the total picture at the end is satisfying,
That's good to know. I'm already enjoying it.
Lily wrote: "Ami wrote: "I was curious about the question Marc has asked too... what do you consider a strong reader? ..."Interesting to me that this is the question you and Marc choose to ask. I suspect ther..."
I asked it because you’ve always been my idea of a strong reader, Lily. I wanted to better understand the make up of your rubric.
Hugh wrote: "What I expect from an Ali Smith novel: wordplay and playful language, breadth of references (especially artistic and literary ones), quirky characters, precocious children, human struggles against ..."Hugh, I am going to respond to your post during the next course!
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "She comes at the story from left field. Takes a bit for me to get oriented, but it's clever and fun and so far worth it."That was a most curious first sentence! Ha!
Glad you’re enjoying it
Robert wrote: "For me Ali Smith can do no wrong. Her books are like a puzzle; if you work a little bit you'll have fun and seeing the total picture at the end is satisfying,"Although Smith uses a writing technique that counters convention, her work is not considered experimental (thank goodness!); perhaps, it’s not novel enough.. I don’t know? It’s not even that important, actually, I was just thinking out loud. You said, work and puzzle to see the bigger picture..my experimental fiction triggers. Ha!
Thanks for joining in :)
Cheers!
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I do think Smith's experimental aspects in writing are often a lot more subtle than some other avant-garde or postmodern writers. When some readers respond negatively to this type of writing, it usually seems to be a criticism of how such writing relies too much on ideas or structure, or it's a negative response to the dynamic created where the usual flow--even joy--of reading is interrupted (especially with prose that continually reminds the reader that they are reading, that the story is contrived, that there's an author pulling the strings, etc.).
Would love to hear your perspective on Smith, Lily, but am completely sympathetic to your current reading obligations and/or burnout when it comes to certain issues.
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(Although my objectivity is suspect. I'm slowly dipping into "fawning" territory when it comes to Smith. I don't know how I'm going to explain the little shrine for her I've created in the basement when my family eventually discovers it... )
Ami wrote: "Robert wrote: "For me Ali Smith can do no wrong. Her books are like a puzzle; if you work a little bit you'll have fun and seeing the total picture at the end is satisfying,"Although Smith uses..."
and yet I know a good number of people who like Autumn but abandon How to be Both and The Accidental for being difficult reads.
Marc wrote: "Agreed, Hugh!(Although my objectivity is suspect. I'm slowly dipping into "fawning" territory when it comes to Smith. I don't know how I'm going to explain the little shrine for her I've created i..."
I have two Ali Smith Shrines. One for the read books and another for the unread (it's just her debut novel and two short story collections)
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Robert, I will be very interested in how you get on with Like, which is a very impressive debut novel...
Hugh wrote: "I started with The Accidental, then Hotel World and this one. Robert, I will be very interested in how you get on with Like, which is a very impressive debut novel..."
The Accidental was my first one as well - hopefully I'll be reading Like soon.
I am a late arrival at the Ali Smith party. I was going to say that I'm working backwards, having arrived at the start of the seasonal quartet, but then I remembered that I have read Girl Meets Boy: The Myth of Iphis. I came to that through the Cannongate myths series, which I have read most of, and wasn't taking a lot of notice of the particular authors, but was focused on the style of re-telling.
This is my first Ali Smith book, but I don't think it will be my last - I'm so glad this book was nominated!By the way, I didn't realize the discussion had started because the title of the book isn't in the subtopic, so when it comes up in my notifications, it's not obvious what book it is. I should be able to follow it now, but just a heads up that it might be worth changing to make sure others know what we're discussing.
Wow! It looks like there are a lot of Ali Smith readers out there!I first read Autumn, and I was VERY disoriented for about 1/3 of the book, I didn't even realize the separate plots were connected! And don't get me started on her war on quote marks.
On re-reading There but for the, I'm struck by the language play - not jut word play. It might be called a comedy of grammar, alongside the puzzle book identity. The first one I noticed was the use of the word "but" (view spoiler). That got me to slow down, and I started to see more mini puzzles.
At the same point, Smith's affinity for child characters appears. Brooke is alternatingly literal and precocious.
I just read this a year ago; I think I'll enjoy re-reading it.
Mark wrote: "Wow! It looks like there are a lot of Ali Smith readers out there!I first read Autumn, and I was VERY disoriented for about 1/3 of the book, I didn't even realize the separate plots were connecte..."
I’ll look to you to point more of these moments out in the following course as I’m sure a second reading will allow for you to have picked up so much more! How exciting for you... for us!
Mark, thank you so much for coming! I do hope you’ll enjoy “TBFT” just the same, or more, upon your second reading of it! I think I’m definitely reading “Autumn” next!
Cheers!
Okay, back to divergent views. This is my first Ali Smith. When I read "clever" and "word play" and "puzzle" I thought "uh-oh." I have a gut-level aversion to clever writing. It is often brilliant, but just not the kind of thing that's interesting enough to me to try to improve my ability to appreciate it, if you know what I mean.So I started this with a bit of an attitude, sort of like my arms were crossed in front of my chest (like she mentions in the story, actually--ha, I'm playing with words in spite of myself).
But (did it again), guess what? The story and the characters sucked me right in. More about why in later threads. I've only just begun, but far enough to be comfortable now.
All this just to encourage anyone else who might be skeptical.
Lily wrote: "I have checked out both Autumn and this one from my local library. Given other things in my life, I don't know how far I'll get with either. "I reread Autumn in audio while I was reading Tbft in hardcover. I found a lot of similarities and loved both. They were also quick reads. And rereading Autumn was quite a pleasant experience. Now I am on to Winter.
So now that I want to read more Ali Smith, what should I read next?And do you recommend reading the "seasons" books in order?
Yes. Read the seasons quartet in order as I think there is a plan for the order she wrote them in that will not be clear until all four are done. Of course, I could also be completely wrong!
LindaJ^ wrote: "Yes. Read the seasons quartet in order as I think there is a plan for the order she wrote them in that will not be clear until all four are done. Of course, I could also be completely wrong!"Thanks Linda! I'm a linear thinker anyway, so it would probably ruin me to read them out of order even if it isn't necessary.
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
Girl Meets Boy: The Myth of Iphis (other topics)How to be Both (other topics)
The Accidental (other topics)
Girl Meets Boy (other topics)
Autumn (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Alexis de Tocqueville (other topics)Gerald Murnane (other topics)
Ali Smith (other topics)
Welcome to the discussion for 21st Century Literature's July 2019 Open Pick winner, There but for the by Ali Smith. While this is the Background and Resources course of our discussion, may it also serve as a place for us all to congregate round this novel without exposing anything too revealing from the narrative. For the next four weeks, my discussion is your discussion. In the time being, make yourselves comfortable and let us start making our way through this menu.