Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Why are the discussions here full of hate
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that's the problem - many of us here do act as we preach...in very rude and unkind ways.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm still learning to "speak the truth in love." I think it would be helpful for my personal growth, if my friends in the discussion group would call me on it, when I stray from that objective.
Cay - Rod and I are tough-minded, we can quickly get to the root of problems and are not afraid to address them. Now, I only speak for myself. There are two versions of Jesus. One who says there isn't enough love and one who perpetrates justice. Among the tender-minded current Christians, we only get examples of the love Jesus as illustrated by your Corinthians offering. Because love has so many dictionary definitions, it's easy to get sloppy and place evil under love. Hate is another easily abused term. To my way of thinking, I love my Christian country (America), try to protect families and the unborn (the weak) from her secular enemies, and expose them for their tactics. On this board, there are supposed Christians who are actively sabotaging Christianity by following liberal ideology. By embracing cultural values in the name of love, they ignore Scriptural teachings on sin and mock Jesus. This is taking on the Mark of the Beast and we get to the second Jesus. False prophets abound as Biblically predicted so I ask you Cay: When you so blithely toss out the hate card, are you just being a tender-minded patsy, or a tough-minded truthseeker?
Some people confuse disagreement with hate. Mocking a bad unbiblical idea is not hate. It's fun!
And most of all love protects and defends truth and goodness. Many confuse defense with hate. Big difference.
(I have never been labelled a tender-minded patsy)
And it's always best to put a Bible verse to everything. So Here's Stephen showing his love just before he was murdered in Acts:
Acts 7:
51“You stubborn people! You are heathenl at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you! 52Name one prophet your ancestors didn’t persecute! They even killed the ones who predicted the coming of the Righteous One—the Messiah whom you betrayed and murdered. 53You deliberately disobeyed God’s law, even though you received it from the hands of angels.”
54The Jewish leaders were infuriated by Stephen’s accusation, and they shook their fists at him in rage...
60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Was all that Love? YES.
Rod, I agree this is LOVE. Love is often hard against those that are near to you. So I agree that it is important to sometimes use harsh words with some that touch your faith and not lessen just because it is political incorrect to do so.Robert, the kind of hate I see is when it crosses not to be of faith, but rather on politics, race, gender or just about a disagreement to minor to be of consequence, such as how loud or quite people are worshiping. If people here send private mail to me calling me to join the islam and fight against the USA I am quite willing to be blunt. But if I cross the line not to limit this to my faith, I feel that I hear Jesus words "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
And yes I can be bland as well on themes that you see different such as saying not to take any oath. And here again I will not back down as everyone just does it.
Love is a very difficult issue Cay. We both know that.Even God has to decide between Heaven and Hell for Billions of people. Many atheists I chat with swear that the Biblical God has NO LOVE (because he's not showing endless kindness and compassion).
But we know love protects truth.
Peter - we've had a brief discussion about how to encourage people to examine in depth the faith positions they hold near and dear, but aren't necessarily in concert with Scripture. Your method is diplomatic - asking gently probing questions which should precipitate a broader range in the individual's perception of his treasured belief. Mine is to simply hit him over the head with his hyprocrisy. After spending a fair amount of time on this board, I've concluded that neither approach works with the theologically narrow-minded. I suppose that's why religion is such a dangerous party topic.
Sometimes poking at people nicely gives poor depth results.For years now I have heard the complaint: "How could a loving God send all those nice innocent little Hindu Grandma's to Hell just because they never knew about Jesus."
Here's what i've learned:
Go and tell those nice little Grannies about Jesus and watch what happens. You'll find that often they are neither innocent OR NICE. God knows what he is doing.
Rod, this comes when you take the most powerful thing God has created (LOVE) and water it down into something everyone can agree than you get NICE.However when you talk of Christion Apologetics you cannot avoid LOVE, as it is the only thing that remains at the end.
We get it, Cay but, as Rod pointed out, love is a tricky thing to pin down and no one has the market oornered in that commodity.
It is interesting to me, as one of the original members of this group, to see how so many people have dropped in and posted a few times and said the same thing that Cay has said. On one hand, we have numerous guys and gals who love Jesus and who all note the same thing about how Robert and Rod speak.
On the other hand, we have Robert and Rod defending themselves.
Its a disturbing pattern. But if you are so convinced you are right, why listen to what anyone else has to say?
Are you saying Rod and I don't love Jesus or that only those who speak with a mouthful of mush love Jesus? David, Rod and I are the only one's who mean what we say - everyone else is trying to impress with how ineffably NICE they are.
I think this is a really relevant post, Cay, and I wonder if I can say something?I think if we look at Jesus' example, there are times when he spoke truth in a blunt way. In the Old Testament God also spoke truth in seemingly harsh ways. I also think it is worth noting that this was not usually his/their first tactic. One could say that they used this blunt method as a last resort when all other tries failed. But one thing I don't ever see them using is harsh sarcasm. And some posts on here are full of that.
That being said, I can see that a lot of posters on here have "known" each other a while...sometimes it seems like the coarse jesting between brothers. However, sometimes it also spills over into posts to newcomers
And I wonder if this is appropriate?
Were is the monitor? We all agreed to be respectful and so on, I thought when we joined.If the monitor will not deal with this then Rod and Robert should provide the names of their Pastor and church so they can be contacted and deal with this.
Are they in churches? Are they under any kind of authority? I imagine that if they do have Elders in there life they know of these men's history and problems in this area.
Heres what we agreed to-1. Respect
Regardless of our disagreements, we will show Christian charity and liberty to all those we engage in discussion with.
2. Focus
Stay pertinent to the topical discussion; do not deviate from the subject matter at hand. If the topic begins to deviate, make a new thread.
3. Humility
Stay humble. Everyone, regardless of how objective we think we are, has preunderstandings and presuppositions we cleave to. Try to understand your opponents position accurate as possible; only then can we evaluate the strength or weakness of an argument, and thereupon either refute or concede to their position.
Kyle - WHERE DO YOU COME OFF? We haven't established ANY of your Christian bonafides. None of your posts have amounted to anything substantial and in totality don't amount to a thimbleful of what Rod and I have contributed to the board. Until you've actually got something important to say, and my guess is that's not until you grow up, you might try a little humility yourself.
Genni - your point is valid about using sarcasm - sometimes I get frustrated and resort to my cultural self rather than the servant of Christ I should be. Those I am chiding, however, never leave the culture. They are all about Love for everyone, regardless of behavior. Nonjudgmentalism rules the day and there is no such thing as sin. Rod and I have learned the hard way the consequences of sin and stress obedience to God. Because we might as well be talking to a brick wall, we get frustrated with the "it's all about love and be nice" crowd. Satan just adores this bunch and uses their naivete to spread evil. I don't mind preaching of only love - there are religions for that, but quit claiming you're Christian if you won't address either your own or the sins of others you're witnessing to.
David: It is interesting to me, as one of the original members of this group, to see how so many people have dropped in and posted a few times and said the same thing that Cay has said. I’ve noticed this as well.
Kyle: We all agreed to be respectful and so on … Respect, Focus, and Humility
We indeed all have agreed to this based on forum rules.
My thoughts: When I first joined, and still at times, it seems to me that many conversations in this forum are more theological and not apologetic, that is, many topics engage with particular doctrines instead of discussion regarding a defense of the faith. Perhaps we need more folks to initiate and perhaps thats a fault of my own. In addition I wonder if the temptation to placing people in liberal/conservative camps is that helpful; it would seem to me that letting the arguments speak for themselves is all that is really needed.
Actually Robert, Kyle is right, we have agreed to those things. They are the rules of the group on the front page of the group.And of course I think you and Rod love Jesus. That's the point - we're all Christians here and if a bunch of Christians continue to call you out on something then maybe you should take the time to listen. Or you can do what you tend to do and assume we're all just pawns of Satan.
David - I didn't say Kyle wasn't right about his 1,2,3 listing. I was mostly referring to his msg. 17, which is strictly puerile. As yet, he has no credibility and may be throwing fuel on the fire provided by Lucifer. There, is that in character enough for you?
Ha! Just call me the hell, fire and brimstone man (not Rod though, he has to get his own listing in the yellow pages).
Robert wrote: "Genni - your point is valid about using sarcasm - sometimes I get frustrated and resort to my cultural self rather than the servant of Christ I should be. Those I am chiding, however, never leave t..."Robert, I understand your concerns about relativism. I think it is definitely a concern, both in our culture, and within the bounds of Christianity, specifically.
Regarding chiding though, I thought about the example in Acts 15 where Paul and Barnabas, who had spent YEARS in ministry together, separate because of a sharp disagreement concerning Mark. As I think about this example, I don't think it's just about taking sides between Paul and Barnabas, Who was right and who was wrong. I think it serves as an example of what we all need when we err, as Mark did. We need someone to say, "No, what you did was wrong." To help us realize the gravitiy of our sin. And we also need someone to say, "You messed up. It's ok. Come with me." So I don't think that those who chide are right, and those who are "Nice" are wrong, or vice versa. We need both the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God. As long as when we correct, we don't demean those who are made in the image of God. Hopefully, we can all move on from this point and have true dialogue.
I truly appreciate the scientific perspective that you bring to this group. :-)
Genni - I'll try to tone it down, but I didn't up the ante by bringing in the word "hate". That's completely uncalled for in a Christian setting, but I've yet to see anyone call out Cay for his inflammatory remark. Make this an across the board rebuke and we can go back to a shaky truce.
People not only make God in their image, they make Jesus in their image.
Robert wrote: "Genni - I'll try to tone it down, but I didn't up the ante by bringing in the word "hate". That's completely uncalled for in a Christian setting, but I've yet to see anyone call out Cay for his inf..."Robert, I think the cool thing about this thread is that, although there are several people who could have been indicated by it, you are the one who responded. It is not easy to take criticism, and although I did not "call you out" specifically, I think it speaks well of you that you responded with grace.
Robert is my buddy (and sometimes I want to poke him with a cattle-prod). It's all part of the experience. Robert and I guarantee you will get honesty and a hearty challenge here - and lovingly Brent will too!
Here's my thoughts on some very valid concerns:
I have been doing apologetics for almost a decade. Be prepared for war and abuse and hatred (and lots of joyful comedy). Be prepared to deal harshly with all the false prophets and teachers the Bible repeatedly (and I mean FREAKIN' repeatedly) warns us about.
Now everyone - go read 2 John and 2 Peter.
If people want to go on the internet and make chatty friendships and massage each others ego's then that's wonderful - this is NOT the place for that. WE do much much better than that here.
David comment:"On one hand, we have numerous guys and gals who love Jesus."
Says WHO? Apparently not the Bible, and not the Jesus of the Bible.
But that's no reason we can't lay all of our cards on the table. Just be prepared to defend what you believe.
Like the noble bereans:
Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
If anyone here does not agree with THE SCRIPTURES they will have to defend their choices. I don't recall Jesus being nice on judgement day.
(I'm not judgement day - i'm just helping a few people prepare. Fun eh? Smile...happy face`)
On the positive side:I'm not seeing much HATE here. Just disagreements and challenges. Welcome to the world of Apologetics!
When I look at many discussions here, I often see the opposite. Would it not be better when we act as we preach?