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Politics > Prop 8/the upcoming lawsuit/gay rights

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message 1: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/us/...

What do you guys think about this, and gay rights in general?


message 2: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Jersey is voting in '10, and I hope we vote yes. X)


message 3: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 24, 2009 11:30AM) (new)

I hate how most people don't know how Prop 8 came about. Some seriously think that the government wanted Prop 8 to pass. That's not true at all. So, I'll tell everyone who reads this what really happened (x

Basically, the government decided that marriage being solely for one man and one woman was wrong. Then a bunch of conservative and religious groups thought that was just preposterous. And so, they created Prop 8 to overturn what the government already said.

Btw, I think that one of the main reasons why it passed in California was because of those stupid commercials about how gay marriage would have to be taught in schools. Um, excuse me, but when were YOU ever taught about marriage in school? Exactly. Of course, if it comes up, the teacher/whoever would have to say that yes, it's legal. But gay marriage wouldn't be TAUGHT in school as part of the curriculum or anything.


message 4: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Those ad campaigns also asserted that churches who refused to marry homosexuals would lose their tax exempt status (which is absurd, because that would have happened BEFORE Prop 8 was voted on, since gay marriage was legal there for a short time). But, yes, I certainly think those ads had a lot to do with the matter. I know many liberals there who were even wary about voting against it because they were misinformed.


message 5: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Churches shouldn't be tax exempt in any case, but it's fair incentive. No one should be allowed to discriminate.



message 6: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Lauren wrote: "Churches shouldn't be tax exempt in any case, but it's fair incentive. No one should be allowed to discriminate.
"


I agree to a point, because where do you draw the line on who is a legit church (*cough* Scientology *cough*) and who isn't? But I don't care if churches don't want to marry gay people. They are allowed to have their beliefs, no matter how ridiculous I think they are. I am just concerned about the legal part of it.


message 7: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Well, there is a certain number of people you need to be considered a religion and not a cult in the US...


message 8: by Dan (last edited Aug 25, 2009 12:37AM) (new)

Dan I agree to a point, because where do you draw the line on who is a legit church (*cough* Scientology *cough*) and who isn't?

What makes any church "legit"? It's a bunch of people believing in crazy stuff with no evidence. Either they're all legit or none are legit. I love it when Christians say, "We believe that an invisible man in the sky remotely impregnated a virgin to give birth to a magic man who was his own father and could walk on water, and sacrificed himself to himself to forgive everyone for the fact that a long time ago a naked man ate an apple because a talking snake told him to. But Scientology, that shit's crazy."

Churches shouldn't be tax-exempt for the simple reason that it's unconstitutional. It amounts to imposing a religion tax on the population. It isn't a matter of determining which churches "deserve" tax exempt status. None of them deserve it.

Anyway, back on topic...

How bizarre is it that Obama is against gay marriage and Dick Cheney is for it? Or if Obama isn't really against it, then how sad is it that our political system requires people to lie about issues like this. I wish someone would hold politicians feet to the fire; politicians who claim to be against gay marriage - either because they are or because it's politically expedient - should be forced to admit that they're in favor of discrimination towards gays, because that's what it amounts to.


message 9: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Lauren wrote: "Well, there is a certain number of people you need to be considered a religion and not a cult in the US..."

It must be pretty low, because Scientology does not have very many adherents (it claims to, but those numbers have been shown to be highly exaggerated). Besides, any "religion" that charges asinine amounts of money for services is a cult. Not to mention that Scientology fits the definition in many other aspects as well.


message 10: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Dan, I agree that religion is all a bunch of crazy bullshit and all, I just don't think that the government has the right to tell them how to run their show, like who they should perform marriage services for and whatever.

I am pissed about Obama's position on marriage, and gay rights in general for that matter, as well.

You should look up this show I saw a while back. I don't know if you know the cable channel Logo, but it is a gay television station and during the primaries they invited all the candidates from both parties to come and discuss their views on gay rights with a panel. Only the Democrats accepted the invitation, and all of them except Dennis Kucinich were for equality except when it came to marriage. Chris Dodd has recently changed his position.

It was ridiculous, though, trying to watch these people explain their positions. They were all about civil unions, but the fact of the matter is that civil unions do not come with the same rights as marriage, and even if they did, didn't our justice system rule that separate is not equal? The candidates just tried to talk around the issue (Obama actually gave a pretty smart answer - he said that his job is to guarantee that all citizens have the same rights, not to argue semantics) and most of them basically ended up saying what amounted to "just because."


message 11: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Nathan wrote: "I agree. Religions should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they wish. It always strikes me as odd when a gay person is upset that they are considered a bad Catholic because they are gay and fight the Church and try to convince it that being gay is okay. Why on earth would they want to continue to be a part of a ridiculous organization that views them as inferior in some way? I would think that if I were a gay Catholic, I would just say, "Fuck Catholicism!" ."

I actually don't think that the bible condemns homosexuality as we know it today. A book called Homosexuality and the Church (or maybe the other way around lol) is a pretty good source on this, although it becomes pretty clear when you look at the contexts and translations in regards to the passages that supposedly condemn homosexuality.

So, I do actually support discussing this matter, and there is definitely a case to be made (although there is probably no point in trying to have this conversation with most Christians) because those who are so convinced that the bible is against homosexuality generally do not have a good idea of what it actually says. They cite the verses that came up when they google homosexuality + bible, but when you try to look deeper into the text they don't have a clue.


message 12: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married


message 13: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Jenna wrote: "i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married"

And I don't believe anyone will take you seriously until you learn to type properly and formulate coherent arguments.


message 14: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Jenna wrote: "i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married"

Why? Do you think the same of straight people?


message 15: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments Liz wrote: Why? Do you think ther same of straight people?

I had to laugh. Here is something my grandfather told me "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." I had to laugh at that, but really I beleive everything my grandfather says, because I know he's a true man. Plus he's read the Bible 7 (on his 8th) times. I, and my WHOLE family, are so thankful he's still alive.


message 16: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Being as I don't believe in god how do i fit into this?



message 17: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments i am not gay but there are gay atheists


message 18: by jessi (last edited Aug 25, 2009 01:27PM) (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Jenna wrote: "I had to laugh. Here is something my grandfather told me "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." I had to laugh at that, but really I beleive everything my grandfather says, because I know he's a true man. Plus he's read the Bible 7 (on his 8th) times. I, and my WHOLE family, are so thankful he's still alive. "

Unfortunately for you/your grandfather:

1. Your religion has no place in government.

2. That's a pretty lousy argument, even if your/your grandfather's opinions had any influence on civil rights.

3. The bible does not actually condemn homosexuality as we know it today. Perhaps, in addition to spending entirely too much time reading the bible, your grandfather should have learned a little bit about the contexts and translations of biblical passages before forming an opinion on how other people should live their lives. (And perhaps you should do your own research before forming an opinion instead of having it dictated to you)


message 19: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments I just said what you wrote. And I'm just telling you what I beleive.


message 20: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments what you believe is bullshit


message 21: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments Well, not beleiving in God is bullshit for your fact "Liz"


message 22: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments that sentence didn't make sense.

So believing in science and things that are proven is bullshit>?


message 23: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"1964103 Well, not beleiving in God is bullshit for your fact "Liz" "

People who don't believe in God are most scientists working around the clock to make your life more pleasant.


message 24: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments Yea, it did. Read it REAL slow...It might hel YOU. Listen, you can beleive in science. Ok. But you cant and shouldnt let it interfiere with God! An athiest probably wouldnt know that. KAPESHE?


message 25: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Your ignorance offends me.

I don't believe in science. That would presume science requires faith. It does not. It exist, whether you want it to or not.

NOMA argument, that there is a secular and religious separation, fails. Science covers everything.


message 27: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments "for your fact?" is not proper english nor does it make sense

and who the hell do you think you are. You can't even spell help right or believe or "kapeshe".

You are fucking retarded.


message 28: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments Yea ok lauren. But dont you think the world would be so much better without all of the science crap? the older days were cleaner! and so was everyone else. they trusted God more.


message 29: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Science crap?


message 30: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Jenna wrote: "Yea ok lauren. But dont you think the world would be so much better without all of the science crap? the older days were cleaner! and so was everyone else. they trusted God more."

You would probably have died at birth without modern medicine. The odds were very high. Think, every medicine you've ever taken, cars, the INTERNET, wouldn't exist. Secularism has produced everything you use everyday. There were no diagrams in the Bible to make air conditioning or stoves or microwaves. Nothing about electricity.


message 31: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments really, am i? i dont give a shit about grammer. all i care about is God. Its what all of you should to. if u were a real Christian, or WAS a Christian, you'd understand my perspective bitch


message 33: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Jenna, one strike. Two more, and banning for 3 days.


message 34: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments lauren, if you beleived in God or even had a clue about God, he would of saved you


message 35: by Lorna (new)

Lorna | 1273 comments You're digging a deep hole there, Jenna...


message 36: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Jenna wrote: "really, am i? i dont give a shit about grammer. all i care about is God. Its what all of you should to. if u were a real Christian, or WAS a Christian, you'd understand my perspective bitch"

Love thy Neighbor

someone is going to hell....

and i can obviously tell that you suck at grammar and are making an excuse that you just don't care about it

and I was a "real christian" for 14 years. and don't call me a bitch


message 37: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
"1964103 lauren, if you beleived in God or even had a clue about God, he would of saved you "

I don't want his help, in any case. He's a pretty sick dude, telling his people to dash infants against the rocks. What, don't remember that quote?

evilbible.com


message 38: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments exactly


message 39: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments You know what? I don't give a shit! God (obviously) didn't save any of you. Your all huge sinners, and will probably go to hell. :) I don't care if I'm banned for three days for speaking my mind! It is SO worth it.


message 40: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments God must be a really mean person to only save a few of us.


message 41: by Jenna (new)

Jenna Bonner | 75 comments See, he could save you. Just beleive in him. You have to want it. And apparently, you don't.


message 42: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Why would I want to believe something that isn't there.


message 43: by Lorna (new)

Lorna | 1273 comments Who's mind are you speaking? Sounds like you're regurgitating someone elses to me. Was it your grandfather who drummed all this into you?


message 44: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments I think so Lorna I think so.

And it is really sad to see someone's life wasted like this.


message 45: by Lorna (last edited Aug 25, 2009 02:02PM) (new)

Lorna | 1273 comments She might come to her senses and start to actually think for herself. In fact she'll probably rebel in a couple of years lol, most do.

Even she remains a christian after having come to her senses, at least she'll have come to the decision under her own steam, instead of having it forced on her.


message 46: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments Maybe


message 47: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 7365 comments Mod
Hell? You mean the place with the geothermally-fueled hot tubs and all the cool people? Sounds awesome/


message 48: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) | 3163 comments lol


message 49: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Jenna wrote: "You know what? I don't give a shit! God (obviously) didn't save any of you. Your all huge sinners, and will probably go to hell. :) I don't care if I'm banned for three days for speaking my mind! I..."

You don't make any sense. He didn't save us? So, now you're blaming him. Doesn't that imply a flaw in *your* belief system? And according to Christianity, we are all sinners, so no shit.


Can we stay on topic, though, guys? There are other, more appropriate threads, for debating religion, am I right?

(Speaking of, I like how Jenna didn't respond to any of the points that I made about gay marriage.)


message 50: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 437 comments Jenna wrote: "See, he could save you. Just beleive in him. You have to want it. And apparently, you don't."

You are operating under the assumption that belief is a choice. I cannot choose to believe in Christianity anymore than you could choose to believe in Scientology; the evidence must sway me to believe, and alas, as there is no evidence/logical reason to believe, I am not convinced.


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