Debate discussion
Politics
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Prop 8/the upcoming lawsuit/gay rights
Mod
I hate how most people don't know how Prop 8 came about. Some seriously think that the government wanted Prop 8 to pass. That's not true at all. So, I'll tell everyone who reads this what really happened (x
Basically, the government decided that marriage being solely for one man and one woman was wrong. Then a bunch of conservative and religious groups thought that was just preposterous. And so, they created Prop 8 to overturn what the government already said.
Btw, I think that one of the main reasons why it passed in California was because of those stupid commercials about how gay marriage would have to be taught in schools. Um, excuse me, but when were YOU ever taught about marriage in school? Exactly. Of course, if it comes up, the teacher/whoever would have to say that yes, it's legal. But gay marriage wouldn't be TAUGHT in school as part of the curriculum or anything.
Basically, the government decided that marriage being solely for one man and one woman was wrong. Then a bunch of conservative and religious groups thought that was just preposterous. And so, they created Prop 8 to overturn what the government already said.
Btw, I think that one of the main reasons why it passed in California was because of those stupid commercials about how gay marriage would have to be taught in schools. Um, excuse me, but when were YOU ever taught about marriage in school? Exactly. Of course, if it comes up, the teacher/whoever would have to say that yes, it's legal. But gay marriage wouldn't be TAUGHT in school as part of the curriculum or anything.
Those ad campaigns also asserted that churches who refused to marry homosexuals would lose their tax exempt status (which is absurd, because that would have happened BEFORE Prop 8 was voted on, since gay marriage was legal there for a short time). But, yes, I certainly think those ads had a lot to do with the matter. I know many liberals there who were even wary about voting against it because they were misinformed.
Mod
Lauren wrote: "Churches shouldn't be tax exempt in any case, but it's fair incentive. No one should be allowed to discriminate. "
I agree to a point, because where do you draw the line on who is a legit church (*cough* Scientology *cough*) and who isn't? But I don't care if churches don't want to marry gay people. They are allowed to have their beliefs, no matter how ridiculous I think they are. I am just concerned about the legal part of it.
Mod
I agree to a point, because where do you draw the line on who is a legit church (*cough* Scientology *cough*) and who isn't?What makes any church "legit"? It's a bunch of people believing in crazy stuff with no evidence. Either they're all legit or none are legit. I love it when Christians say, "We believe that an invisible man in the sky remotely impregnated a virgin to give birth to a magic man who was his own father and could walk on water, and sacrificed himself to himself to forgive everyone for the fact that a long time ago a naked man ate an apple because a talking snake told him to. But Scientology, that shit's crazy."
Churches shouldn't be tax-exempt for the simple reason that it's unconstitutional. It amounts to imposing a religion tax on the population. It isn't a matter of determining which churches "deserve" tax exempt status. None of them deserve it.
Anyway, back on topic...
How bizarre is it that Obama is against gay marriage and Dick Cheney is for it? Or if Obama isn't really against it, then how sad is it that our political system requires people to lie about issues like this. I wish someone would hold politicians feet to the fire; politicians who claim to be against gay marriage - either because they are or because it's politically expedient - should be forced to admit that they're in favor of discrimination towards gays, because that's what it amounts to.
Lauren wrote: "Well, there is a certain number of people you need to be considered a religion and not a cult in the US..."It must be pretty low, because Scientology does not have very many adherents (it claims to, but those numbers have been shown to be highly exaggerated). Besides, any "religion" that charges asinine amounts of money for services is a cult. Not to mention that Scientology fits the definition in many other aspects as well.
Dan, I agree that religion is all a bunch of crazy bullshit and all, I just don't think that the government has the right to tell them how to run their show, like who they should perform marriage services for and whatever.I am pissed about Obama's position on marriage, and gay rights in general for that matter, as well.
You should look up this show I saw a while back. I don't know if you know the cable channel Logo, but it is a gay television station and during the primaries they invited all the candidates from both parties to come and discuss their views on gay rights with a panel. Only the Democrats accepted the invitation, and all of them except Dennis Kucinich were for equality except when it came to marriage. Chris Dodd has recently changed his position.
It was ridiculous, though, trying to watch these people explain their positions. They were all about civil unions, but the fact of the matter is that civil unions do not come with the same rights as marriage, and even if they did, didn't our justice system rule that separate is not equal? The candidates just tried to talk around the issue (Obama actually gave a pretty smart answer - he said that his job is to guarantee that all citizens have the same rights, not to argue semantics) and most of them basically ended up saying what amounted to "just because."
Nathan wrote: "I agree. Religions should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they wish. It always strikes me as odd when a gay person is upset that they are considered a bad Catholic because they are gay and fight the Church and try to convince it that being gay is okay. Why on earth would they want to continue to be a part of a ridiculous organization that views them as inferior in some way? I would think that if I were a gay Catholic, I would just say, "Fuck Catholicism!" ."I actually don't think that the bible condemns homosexuality as we know it today. A book called Homosexuality and the Church (or maybe the other way around lol) is a pretty good source on this, although it becomes pretty clear when you look at the contexts and translations in regards to the passages that supposedly condemn homosexuality.
So, I do actually support discussing this matter, and there is definitely a case to be made (although there is probably no point in trying to have this conversation with most Christians) because those who are so convinced that the bible is against homosexuality generally do not have a good idea of what it actually says. They cite the verses that came up when they google homosexuality + bible, but when you try to look deeper into the text they don't have a clue.
i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married
Jenna wrote: "i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married"And I don't believe anyone will take you seriously until you learn to type properly and formulate coherent arguments.
Jenna wrote: "i beleive gay people can u know...date, but i DONT beleive that they can get married"Why? Do you think the same of straight people?
Liz wrote: Why? Do you think ther same of straight people?I had to laugh. Here is something my grandfather told me "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." I had to laugh at that, but really I beleive everything my grandfather says, because I know he's a true man. Plus he's read the Bible 7 (on his 8th) times. I, and my WHOLE family, are so thankful he's still alive.
Being as I don't believe in god how do i fit into this?
i am not gay but there are gay atheists
Jenna wrote: "I had to laugh. Here is something my grandfather told me "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." I had to laugh at that, but really I beleive everything my grandfather says, because I know he's a true man. Plus he's read the Bible 7 (on his 8th) times. I, and my WHOLE family, are so thankful he's still alive. "Unfortunately for you/your grandfather:
1. Your religion has no place in government.
2. That's a pretty lousy argument, even if your/your grandfather's opinions had any influence on civil rights.
3. The bible does not actually condemn homosexuality as we know it today. Perhaps, in addition to spending entirely too much time reading the bible, your grandfather should have learned a little bit about the contexts and translations of biblical passages before forming an opinion on how other people should live their lives. (And perhaps you should do your own research before forming an opinion instead of having it dictated to you)
I just said what you wrote. And I'm just telling you what I beleive.
Well, not beleiving in God is bullshit for your fact "Liz"
that sentence didn't make sense.So believing in science and things that are proven is bullshit>?
Mod
People who don't believe in God are most scientists working around the clock to make your life more pleasant.
Yea, it did. Read it REAL slow...It might hel YOU. Listen, you can beleive in science. Ok. But you cant and shouldnt let it interfiere with God! An athiest probably wouldnt know that. KAPESHE?
Mod
I don't believe in science. That would presume science requires faith. It does not. It exist, whether you want it to or not.
NOMA argument, that there is a secular and religious separation, fails. Science covers everything.
"for your fact?" is not proper english nor does it make senseand who the hell do you think you are. You can't even spell help right or believe or "kapeshe".
You are fucking retarded.
Yea ok lauren. But dont you think the world would be so much better without all of the science crap? the older days were cleaner! and so was everyone else. they trusted God more.
Mod
You would probably have died at birth without modern medicine. The odds were very high. Think, every medicine you've ever taken, cars, the INTERNET, wouldn't exist. Secularism has produced everything you use everyday. There were no diagrams in the Bible to make air conditioning or stoves or microwaves. Nothing about electricity.
really, am i? i dont give a shit about grammer. all i care about is God. Its what all of you should to. if u were a real Christian, or WAS a Christian, you'd understand my perspective bitch
Mod
http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/06/16/c...
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/18...
Mod
lauren, if you beleived in God or even had a clue about God, he would of saved you
You're digging a deep hole there, Jenna...
Jenna wrote: "really, am i? i dont give a shit about grammer. all i care about is God. Its what all of you should to. if u were a real Christian, or WAS a Christian, you'd understand my perspective bitch"Love thy Neighbor
someone is going to hell....
and i can obviously tell that you suck at grammar and are making an excuse that you just don't care about it
and I was a "real christian" for 14 years. and don't call me a bitch
Mod
I don't want his help, in any case. He's a pretty sick dude, telling his people to dash infants against the rocks. What, don't remember that quote?
evilbible.com
You know what? I don't give a shit! God (obviously) didn't save any of you. Your all huge sinners, and will probably go to hell. :) I don't care if I'm banned for three days for speaking my mind! It is SO worth it.
God must be a really mean person to only save a few of us.
See, he could save you. Just beleive in him. You have to want it. And apparently, you don't.
Why would I want to believe something that isn't there.
Who's mind are you speaking? Sounds like you're regurgitating someone elses to me. Was it your grandfather who drummed all this into you?
I think so Lorna I think so. And it is really sad to see someone's life wasted like this.
She might come to her senses and start to actually think for herself. In fact she'll probably rebel in a couple of years lol, most do.Even she remains a christian after having come to her senses, at least she'll have come to the decision under her own steam, instead of having it forced on her.
Mod
Jenna wrote: "You know what? I don't give a shit! God (obviously) didn't save any of you. Your all huge sinners, and will probably go to hell. :) I don't care if I'm banned for three days for speaking my mind! I..."You don't make any sense. He didn't save us? So, now you're blaming him. Doesn't that imply a flaw in *your* belief system? And according to Christianity, we are all sinners, so no shit.
Can we stay on topic, though, guys? There are other, more appropriate threads, for debating religion, am I right?
(Speaking of, I like how Jenna didn't respond to any of the points that I made about gay marriage.)
Jenna wrote: "See, he could save you. Just beleive in him. You have to want it. And apparently, you don't."You are operating under the assumption that belief is a choice. I cannot choose to believe in Christianity anymore than you could choose to believe in Scientology; the evidence must sway me to believe, and alas, as there is no evidence/logical reason to believe, I am not convinced.
What do you guys think about this, and gay rights in general?