Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
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Apr 06, 2019 11:13PM
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I'm about a quarter through This Immortal and it's still setting up. None if the characters is particularly likeable yet, and the story seems just a little slow. Of course I won't judge it on that, it's too early.
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I find that Zelazny can tell a story on different levels, some of his books have easy to follow plots and stories are reach enough without actually going into details and deciphering what it all means. This books is slightly more confusing however, there's a lot going on without the reader seeing the whole picture at first. I admit I did not enjoy this book the first time around as much as I am enjoying it now, over 15 years later.
It's curious for me to know that The Einstein Intersection came out a year after this novel did, which has many similar points raised.
Anyway, I am only half way and while I imagine some our members will possibly dislike how the story is told, I am so far loving it.
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message 5:
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
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Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias"
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert... near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
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I'm very glad you enjoyed it. This novel is great even as a reread, especially one a decade apart. The action sequences are very strong, especially when Zelazny is not fooling around with albino Down syndrome vampires.
The showdown between Hasan and Conrad is typical Zelazny, he can really suck you right into the conflict, not exactly knowing who you should be rooting for.
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Spoiler alert! That is NOT Bortan.
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I am torn between giving it two or three stars. I saw some of the reviews here on Goodreads nad people are raving about how great the characters are, something I did not notice at all, the one thing they have going for them is that they are slightly unconventional and the absence of a "hero" character underlines that even further. But once you see past that I find that the characters, though not entirely one dimensional, are very boring and predictable.
Hmm two or three stars...
Finished This Immortal. Like Art, I kept thinking of Einstein Intersection all the while I was reading. Very similar ideas about recurrence of mythic themes, set in a desolate world. The first 20 pages were unpromising: the constant barrage of new characters was a bit much, I had some trouble remembering who's who and how they were connected to each other. Luckily Zelazny didn't introduce almost any new characters after that.
One thing that really dated this book was the mutated animals. It was so endearingly stupid: six-legged cows, "boadiles", satyrs... As if radiation was magic that could produce completely novel species just like that. Yes, I understand the mutations served the theme of mythical times returning to Earth, but I still cringed. Of course, the science of genetics is pretty young, so perhaps the idea of DNA hadn't really have time to percolate to general consciousness in the 60's.
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You say that two-headed bramins from Fallout are stupid?! How dare you!
https://images.app.goo.gl/d7udR24vSdN...
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P.s. don't mess with Fallout fans!
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I loved how it was described by Budrys: Budrys much preferred Zelazny's This Immortal to Thomas Disch's The Genocide. Predicting that Zelazny's career would be more important and lasting than Disch's, he described the latter's book as "unflaggingly derivative of" the New Wave and filled with "dumb, resigned victims" who "run, hide, slither, grope and die" .
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Antti wrote:"Like Art, I kept thinking of Einstein Intersection all the while I was reading. Very similar ideas about recurrence of mythic themes, set in a desolate world. "
Apparently Delaney was a big fan of Zelazny's work, so I suppose it is feasible that some of it reflects in his later writing.
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Antti wrote: "The first 20 pages were unpromising: the constant barrage of new characters was a bit much, I had some trouble remembering who's who and how they were connected to each other. Luckily Zelazny didn't introduce almost any new characters after that."
I saw Zelazny commenting on this, it was a half-nod to the old school writing, sort of like how you get characters introduced in a play, in the first scenes. I also felt it a bit clunky and hard to read because the reader doesn't understand the importance of the information given to them.
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Antti wrote:"One thing that really dated this book was the mutated animals. It was so endearingly stupid: six-legged cows, "boadiles", satyrs... As if radiation was magic that could produce completely novel species just like that."
This novel being the first Zelazny ever written, it has a lot of experimental stuff in it. "Mythicism" was Zelazny's lifelong passion, so it's hardly surprising seeing it in his early work in such an unpolished form.
Though do not be hasty to disregard satyrs born of radiation as naiveté, the use of it was intentional and in the context of New Wave sci-fi. For me it worked (not as splendidly as in his other works) only to a point. I also found "boadiles" childish and slightly mocking of the age pulp-fiction.
However, Zelazny spoke on the subject, clarifying any misunderstandings that this was supposed to be taken as a classic sci-fi: “I wanted to leave it open to several interpretations—well, at least two. I wanted to sort of combine fantasy and sf… either Conrad is a mutant or he is the Great God Pan. The book may be read either way.”
Were I one of those contrarian people who "fan-splain" things to other readers, I could argue that it all makes sense. But I'm not and I won't and it probably doesn't. It's enough for me that it is a book worth reading, worth rereading even, given the beautiful style Zelazny uses which is never apparent during the first reading, ridden with hidden hints, references. On the first reading everyone just rushes through the plot, which is often engaging enough and once gets the steam going it doesn't stop for the reader to "smell the roses".
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I didn't know that! Winning a Hugo (split with Dune) is quite a feat!
Art: I could understand satyrs, since they served the mythical theme, even if there really isn't any feasible way to mutate people to have horns and hooves.And I had no trouble with Conrad himself, which goes to show that I am totally inconsistent with the things that bother me and things that don't. But Conrad was so obviously some sort of (demi-)god that his supernatural strength, longevity and psychic powers didn't really call for any explanation. Even the book's title betrays his status: "immortals" was another name for gods in Greek myths.
I just realized I didn't mention in my initial comment that I liked the book quite a lot. I especially liked the idea that the Earth had turned into third-world planet, with a lot of history but not much future, economically dependent on alien tourists' currency. Zelazny captured both the resentment and resignation this kind of situation can cause in people.
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By the way, in regards to the title, publisher pressured Zelazny into naming it this way. The original title serialized in the sci-fi magazine was ... And Call Me Conrad, I like it much more personally. With every member of his little company of misfits pestering him about one of the personas each of them met in the past, while he is trying to be just this Conrad fella.
...And Call Me Conrad would've captured the book's overall atmosphere much better than This Immortal, but I can understand that from the publisher's point of view it is not the best name. First of all, how do you alphabetize it? Under "A" or "#" or what? That's the kind of confusion no publisher wants.
Not to mention the title didn't really scream "SF/F". There would have been some, perhaps a lot of, lost potential readers. Especially with a writer's first novel you don't want to take those kinds of risks.
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Curious, this is one of just a few good old books that has no ebook or audio version, even despite her other books do
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Thanks for the info!
message 24:
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited May 10, 2019 06:55AM)
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(Hey, Art! I knew you would rate it 5 stars!)
Much better than I remembered. Zelazny's first novel definitely already shows his style of description and character internal monologue as explanation. Some fascinating bits about the "real" meaning of Greek mythology, and a great ending. Not something I would ever read again, however.
Recommended for those who like a little story along with their fascinating setting and character background. Complete with interesting twists and turns. A precursor that shows a similarity to the Amber books. Corwin and Conrad are very similar
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I thought so too, when I've read it!
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It barely made it onto my 5 star list. If not for the fact that it was his first novel, I'd probably keep it as a 4*. It also deserved an extra point as an exciting reread, after ten years of experiences i noticed more depth in some of the references.
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message 29:
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
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I'm just over halfway through The Inverted World and suddenly everything got super weird. I was expecting something strange, but not like this!
Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels
Books mentioned in this topic
This Immortal (other topics)The Inverted World (other topics)
The Einstein Intersection (other topics)
