World, Writing, Wealth discussion

12 views
The Lounge: Chat. Relax. Unwind. > Is paradise socialist? -:)

Comments Showing 1-22 of 22 (22 new)    post a comment »
dateDown arrow    newest »

message 1: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13528 comments That's how wikipedia describes the concept: "in paradise there is only peace, prosperity, and happiness. Paradise is a place of contentment, a land of luxury and fulfillment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise
My theological knowledge is poor, but this imaginary place hardly implies hard labor, socioeconomic gap or inequality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure there is any division between a first class paradise and economy class and both the righteous billionaire and car mechanic arrive to the same place. In such a place of abundance, I'm not even sure the trade is much of a go and maybe everyone can get around with Ferrari.
Needless to say, it's not a very serious thread in line with Saturday's mood, but what do you think?


message 2: by Holly (new)

Holly (goldikova) According to Jean Paul Sartre: Hell is other people.

So my idea of paradise would involve a few select companions in a remote and isolated location.


message 3: by Matthew (last edited Mar 30, 2019 12:17PM) (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) I think a good way to look at it is that this idea of a "perfect society" was what socialists strive for. It's not to say the concept is socialist, just something that socialism as a political theory emerged and seized onto. And I think Orwell said it best:

“In more primitive ages, when a just and peaceful society was in fact not possible, it had been fairly easy to believe it. The idea of an earthly paradise in which men should live together in a state of brotherhood, without laws and without brute labour, had haunted the human imagination for thousands of years.

"And this vision had had a certain hold even on the groups who actually profited by each historical change. The heirs of the French, English, and American revolutions had partly believed in their own phrases about the rights of man, freedom of speech, equality before the law, and the like, and have even allowed their conduct to be influenced by them to some extent."

The point being, by the latter half of 19th century, political philosophies emerged in response to changing conditions. Not only had the revolutions of the past two centuries proven largely ineffective, but life was becoming measurably better due to simple changes. They figured this process could be carried on indefinitely until true equality emerged.


message 4: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan The day that all humans become emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually mature will be the day that paradise becomes feasible.


message 5: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Graeme wrote: "The day that all humans become emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually mature will be the day that paradise becomes feasible."

So... never? :)


message 6: by J. (new)

J. Gowin | 2920 comments For some paradise is a little piece of the world where no one else can tell them what to do. For others it is a world which has cast off barbarism and embraced the truth of their philosophy. They both have flaws, but at least one need not conquer the world to be the sole judge of which flowers one plants in their own garden.


message 7: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9531 comments The theological paradise is where only souls reside, and since souls cant use "things" and presumably don't eat, there is no need to work. So they just sit around. Maybe get bored? Wait - this sounds more like another version of hell.


message 8: by Ian (new)

Ian Bott (iansbott) | 211 comments Ian wrote: "The theological paradise is where only souls reside, and since souls cant use "things" and presumably don't eat, there is no need to work. So they just sit around. Maybe get bored? Wait - this sounds more like another version of hell."

Regardless of whether they actually have anything to do, or just sit around, the idea of literal eternal life is kinda horrifying. People throw ideas like that around far too glibly without truly understanding what they're saying. I blogged a rather long-winded rant about that many years ago:
https://thebaldpatch.blogspot.com/201...


message 9: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13528 comments Matthew wrote: "...a "perfect society"..."

This would be a good parallel. Just how far away are we from it or is it, allowing for human nature, absolutely Utopian?


message 10: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13528 comments Ian wrote: "https://thebaldpatch.blogspot.com/201...
..."

Nice presentation of the infinity.
Yeah, eternity feels like a long while, however despite what chronometrists say, the time flies and accelerates with the age. In this case would put my own observations above scientific ones to the contrary -:)


message 11: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan I don't believe that social equality will be achieved.

For every man that wants to lord it over others there are hundreds or millions who will bend their knee.

The two responses - the lust for rulership and the desire to obey go hand in hand.

Until both are eliminated - equality will never occur.


message 12: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Matthew wrote: "So... never? :)"

Ahhh.... Yes.


message 13: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Ian wrote: "Regardless of whether they actually have anything to do, or just sit around, the idea of literal eternal life is kinda horrifying...."

Great post Ian.

I've long remarked that 'not being able to die,' would be the most appalling curse.


message 14: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9531 comments Of course there is the catch that when death is imminent, are you so sure you want it to be final? In mid-life, you don't really think about it, do you, but I suspect it becomes more threatening when you know it will happen tomorrow or the next day.


message 15: by J.J. (new)

J.J. Mainor | 2146 comments Ian wrote: "Ian wrote: "The theological paradise is where only souls reside, and since souls cant use "things" and presumably don't eat, there is no need to work. So they just sit around. Maybe get bored? Wait..."

Especially when you have to spend it with "people" you didn't like in life...


message 16: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan This is a testable hypothesis.

Is paradise socialist? If true, then by equivalence socialism is paradise.

Test vs real world.

What are socialist societies actually like?

Paradise, yes or no.


message 17: by Ian (new)

Ian Bott (iansbott) | 211 comments Graeme wrote: "This is a testable hypothesis.

Is paradise socialist? If true, then by equivalence socialism is paradise.

Test vs real world.

What are socialist societies actually like?

Paradise, yes or no."


Sorry, IMO that's a false equivalence. Just because A is B, does not necessarily mean B is A. In other words, not all socialist societies are necessarily paradise. In fact there's a huge variety out there, with varying degrees of faults and virtues. I don't think that really proves anything.

However, it might be fruitful to ask about the qualities of a paradise, and see if the principles of socialism fit the bill. And if not, why not.


message 18: by Ian (last edited Mar 31, 2019 10:36PM) (new)

Ian Miller | 9531 comments Graeme, you have to be able to say something along the lines:

If and only if paradise is socialist, then socialism is paradise.

Leaving aside disagreement with the "if" part, the "only if" is going to be very difficult to justify, except of course, the terms are a bit loose. For example, define paradise? If some strong left winger defines paradise as pure socialism, there is it :-(


message 19: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Hi Guys,

Point taken, but you get my gist.

We should be able to point to societies that nominate themselves as socialist and check to see if they are 'paradise.'

This is an empirical test, we just need to agree terms. :-).


message 20: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13528 comments If happiness characterizes paradise, then empirical data somewhat supports: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_H...
Scandinavian countries, which are considered the most 'socialist' occupy the first 4 places of world's happiness report


message 21: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Yeah, but Scandi countries are built on capitalist economies, rule of law, private property, hard work, good education and a willingness to build and sell to the world... with high taxes and a strong social welfare net.

The former enables the later. Local people work hard to pay for the social goods they enjoy.

I've lived and worked in Sweden.


message 22: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13528 comments That's the most socialist it can practically get. For me it's less the formal theoretical features, but rather the essence, happiness being the first and then: bonding, smallest socioeconomic gap, welfare, bonding.


back to top