Feburary 2019 BotM - From Under Mountains

[Mike, Host & Producer of IRCB!]

What did you think of From Under Mountains by Claire Gibson, Marian Churchland, and Sloane Leong?

WARNING: Spoilers for From Under Mountains!

Tune in to the IRCB Podcast on Wednesday, February 27th for the podcast team's discussion of this month's book, From Under Mountains.

If it's okayto read your comments on the show, please post them before we record on February 24th and include "OK TO AIR" in your post!

You can find the podcast on the iTunes store, Google Play Store, Spotify, ircbpodcast.com, and more.

[Oneirosophos]

I have read many comic books written & illustrated by women.

This is the first I come across that is so disinteresting.

The dialogue is utterly wooden, the characters are disinteresting. The only positive of this limited series is the unique pencil-centric art. It has some nice moments, especially when it gets etheric.

But otherwise, I would put it to the non-recommended list of comics by women, where I had only Mockingbird, by Chelsea Cain & Kate Niemczyk, so far.

[Tia]

Oneirosophos wrote: "I have read many comic books written & illustrated by women.

This is the first I come across that is so disinteresting.

The dialogue is utterly wooden, the characters are disinteresting. The only..."

What does them being women have to do with why you don't recommend it? I do think that there are ways a book might be specifically masculine or feminine (as abstract ideas of identity more than as the identity of specific people). For example, I dislike a lot of Garth Ennis's work because I find that it can get a little steeped in themes of toxic masculinity I find uninteresting, and doesn't do enough to unpack or critique them for my taste. But I read that Mockingbird run, and besides one cover image I didn't find it particularly *feminine* or feminist from a thematic perspective. And of course there are all-male creative teams who do a great job engaging with feminine or feminist themes. Likewise I think there are women who do great stories that revolve around masculinity. I don't want to sound like I'm giving you a hard time here, because there is I think a legit way to categorize and critique books by engaging with gender (there's literally an entire field called Gender Studies in academia that does this), and while the gender identity of the creative teams is one aspect of that, I am just not seeing what it has to do with the books you mentioned and I'm curious what you saw that I didn't.

Personally, I absolutely love this book. I'm an art ho so I tend to gravitate towards comics that lean that way. I find the sparse dialogue is entirely suitable to the rich, lush artwork. It would be too loud and too busy with too much talking. So much of the story is told with visual language, especially the brilliant color work. I would compare some pages to the silent moments in Miyazaki films. They just let the story breathe and are more about tone and mood rather than action. It feels more like a dream than a story, especially in places where the backgrounds are just color washes. That to me is part of what makes the fantasy genre so worthwhile, you can play with reality in that way.

[Oneirosophos]

I mentioned it because it was the theme of the month. ;)

[Tia]

Oneirosophos wrote: "I mentioned it because it was the theme of the month. ;)"

This is the discussion thread for it so...let's discuss! Just because something is the theme of the month doesn't mean it speaks for itself. It's worth unpacking, no?

[Hermit]

I recommended this for the BotM, and I came away from my reading disappointed. Now the color I loved. Different palettes were used for different scenes, and that made many transitions smoother, particularly when the scene changed mid-page. Otherwise I didn't find much to crow about. I'm intrigued about how it strikes the rest of you.
Ok to air.

[Francis]

So this is quite a long winded post, but the book, and the discussion here in this thread really engaged me, first of all this book is beautifully illustrated, the artwork complimented the magical elements of the storytelling. The symbolism within the art, which told a tale of birth, death and rebirth felt perfectly appropriate for the subject and tone of the story. I was really drawn to the way the art was paired back to essential elements, and was not cluttered with detail. The use of a colour palette which was evocative of beautiful sunsets and sunrises, evoked a melancholic tone and was a reflection of the tragedy of the loss of Marcellus and the grief of his father Lord Crowe, but more so I thought it was giving an insight into Elena’s situation. It told the tale of a capable woman, who was being denied the agency to make her own decisions due to the patriarchal structure of her time and place in this story. I felt a great loss for her as she transformed from a daughter who existed only as a strategic option but who may become a leader in the absence of her Father and Brother, but it appeared to me that she would be unable to overcome the machinations of her fathers advisor and the King’s council, and that she would finally return to that strategic role.

Of course the theme of loss is throughout the story, the king has lost his wife, parents lose there children. Elena loses her Brother, her Father and her home. Tova the thief loses her liberty. Elena will lose Fisher, and the burgeoning relationship between them, before it can become fully defined.

The relationships in the book added depth to the storytelling by contrasting the personal needs of each character with the political duties they had to observe.

I took to the internet to try to find out more about this series and to perhaps get some clarity on aspects I can’t quite make up my mind about and discovered it’s a spinoff from the series 8House, which itself is made up of individual story arcs and "is a collaborative sci-fi fantasy series, and each creative team involved in the project handles one story arc in this burgeoning universe”. To be honest that raised more questions than answers for me and I’m intrigued to read more story’s set in the universe. I’d also be interested what anyone who has read 8House thinks about it, and how it relates to this story, if at all.

My opinion is that this is a great book, and in a similar way to previous book of the month, Nimona it manages to exist in a fantasy environment which borders onto reality closely enough to allow me to enjoy it.

Now, in regard to Oneirosophos and Tia's comments on how this book fits into a category of "female", "feminine" or "feminist", my understanding of why someone might react negatively to the "femininity" of this book is only by taking an uncritical view of a text through the lens of a patriarchal belief system, because any interpretation relies heavily on the preconceptions brought to a text by the reader. Perhaps if one assumes that the way of things in terms of gender roles is "natural", and takes it for granted that men rule over all others, then this story may seem lacking in depth, but in my opinion it was a rich text that warrants analysis. I personally cannot deny that my own reading of this text was heavily informed by my own knowledge that it was created by a female creative team, but also my personal analysis is always informed by Marxist Critical Theory, so I will always look to identify class power structures, and consider the characters behaviour in relation to their position in that structure.

In the case of this text, clearly the story takes place in a kingdom where gender plays a role in the power a person holds in that society. It is a patriarchal society, we know this because the head of state is male, as are the decision makers on the Kings council. Lord Crowe and his advisors are also male. There are three female characters who wield some aspects of power, but none of them hold this power without a struggle. Avisleth the Witch is an outcast, and is polarised for wielding 'feminine' power, she is seen as fitting in to derogatory female stereotypes described as, "High Witch of Akhara, Bane of Iron, Watcher of the High Peak, Slut of the Marsh...". Her only recourse to the murder of her son is revenge through magic, this is because the society she belongs to values a male patriarchal lineage over justice.

Elena only gains any power in this story as a result of the central tragedy of the death of her brother. Prior to his death, she only exists to be married in some sort of peace bargain. In the aftermath of Marcellus's death she only wields the small amount afforded to her due to her Fathers absence from his duties of state after he drifts into depression, in some part this is due to his legacy being lost along with Marcellus as the only male heir to Karsgate. As soon as her father dies all power to make decisions passes to Ares Eudon the kings advisor, who then has the power to dictate Elena's future, which appears to be an arranged marriage to a King who at one point is described as a "propped up corpse", and it is clear that the levers of power are held by the Kings Council.

Lady Ure Estril appears to be something of an exception it terms of a female character with power in the hierarchy of the Kingdom, but that power has come at a cost, she lost her husband and in order to hold power she must remain unmarried. We see through these three characters that woman do not have equal rights with the men in the Kingdom, and that they are restricted in the choices they can make.

When I take all of these factors into account, combined with my knowledge of the creative team, I find it difficult not to conclude that the writer at least is making a comment on gender roles in society and that the fantasy setting is analogous to their real world experience. As comment and debate on these issues is not exclusively reserved to one gender or the other, it would seem odd to me to classify a book as on a list of comics by woman not to recommend, rather than a list of books which present gender relationships in the context of systems of power which I would not recommend. Like Tia, I'm not a fan of most of Garth Ennis's work, and if it was written with the same voice by a woman I would feel exactly the same way. For me it's the subject matter and not the gender of the creator which is important.

OK to air.

[Chad]

This was just not for me I guess. I dig fantasy comics, but this was difficult to follow. There's at least 20 characters and they all look alike except for their hair style. The art has a less stylized Paul Pope quality to it. The plot moves at a snail's pace. There are so many conversations that are trying to build this world, but it's just two people talking and it never becomes very clear how the political structure here works beyonds the basics of a medieval kingdom. This whole 6 issue arc was mainly just prelude to what the author appears to be setting up for a future that will probably never happen. This came out a couple of years ago, so I'm guessing we won't ever see a sequel. There are so many pages wasted in transition. There was more than once where a character just walked by themselves for 3 pages.

The only interesting character in the book was Elena, the daughter of the local Lord. She feels trapped because she has no say in how she lives her own life. It's a trope you see in lots of male dominated fantasy books, but I'm cool with it as long as at some time she gets to break out of that role and live her life as she chooses. I just wish she was the center of this "story". Instead it's plagued with 20 some odd other cardboard cutout characters, none of which are given enough of a personality for me to care about. In fact, the majority are just plain unlikable. I can't stress how much I disliked this book.

OK to air.

[Craig]

I've never taken part in a "book of the month" in any of the groups I'm a part of, but gave this one a try. I was jazzed to see the art was by Sloane Leong, whose Prism Stalker I'm also working my way through. Unfortunately, this just didn't grab me at all. After the third issue, I had to give up, because I had no interest in these characters or what was happening and could not force myself to read any further. It didn't help that I'd read a similar, much better fantasy graphic novel very recently, Mike Carey's The Highest House, and that this paled hugely by comparison.

[Daniel]

OK TO AIR
Its always tough for me to go outside of capes but this group always has interesting recommendations

It was a bit hard to follow at the beginning, I think there’s a few things I feel like I just had to accept and move forward. There were some interesting concepts here, like the magic, the structure of the governing system the relationship with the family especially after the incident
My favorite part was the art, I would like to go back and read the book with no speech, I feel like the combination of style and color could tell the story at a Hugh level
Definitely not my usual read but I am overall glad I got a chance to experience something off the normal path

[kaitlphere]

A number of you may have seen my review already, but I mostly agree with the sentiment here.

I had a hard time getting into the story and there were a few times where I considered putting the book down. I'm ultimately glad I stuck with it, as the most interesting part was the last few pages. I think my disappointment would have been worse if I hadn't gotten through the book. I'm usually the most invested in the "journey" aspect in stories, and we only just got to the "journey" in those last few pages. I admit, I immediately went looking for a sequel, since the book was just getting to what might interest me, and it doesn't look like there is one.

I did really like the religion structure in this book. I feel like a multiple-god system usually has a father, a mother, and trickster god, but the multiple (eight?) gods in this world were a lot more nuanced and morally gray. I wanted to learn more about those gods, their stories, and how they influenced the world, but again...no sequel.

[Hermit]

I listened to the podcast today, and I feel like you kids read a different book than I did. I know I got VERY lost in the plot because the characters all looked the same to me. I tried to go back and figure out who was who and I finally gave up and tried to just let the art flow over me. I understood the fight-the-patriarchy theme, but there were too many characters who I thought were men who were women and vice versa. The podcast is going to make me try this book again, because you three sure found more of interest here than I did on my first reading. Thank you.

[Mike, Host & Producer of IRCB!]

Hermit wrote: "I listened to the podcast today, and I feel like you kids read a different book than I did. I know I got VERY lost in the plot because the characters all looked the same to me. I tried to go back a..."

Thanks for checking back in after listening to the ep! Let us know what you think after your re-read :D

[Lorenzo]

I just finished reading this month's book and I felt a little underwhelmed. I haven't heard the podcast yet as I hadn't finished the story, so forgive me if anything I said here was discussed in depth.

This is what happened to me, I couldn't engage with the artwork when the normal characters of the story were just standing around and talking. It felt like there was a rather lack of differentiation between the characters personalities. What I mean by that is that everyone feels one note. For example, they are all grim and frowny. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but I think there was half a smile by one character in the first 4 issues and that just feels to me like an unrealistic world. Even in Westeros there are a couple of witty jokers. I'm not asking for anyone to be a buffoon, but when everyone is the same in the way they talk and the way the act, it doesn't engage me. The only one that seemed to show much range was Elena's father and Elena had a nice, although subtle growth throughout.

Now, whenever the writers were explaining the mythology of the world, I was definitely engaged. The artwork fit perfectly to that surreal tone they were trying to convey. I found those parts fascinating. Sadly, there weren't many of them.

The story telling is strange to me. Conversations are too long and mostly don't reveal much or repeat the information we know already. We don't need 5 pages of another conversation with Fisher about whatever he did, when you've been showing us since we saw him for the first time and he's been telling us with his constant melancholy all throughout. The side plot with the council is not very interesting. The only story that seemed to have some payoff was the story between the witch and Elena's father.

Either way, this one was definitely not my favorite, but I'm glad I read it. There are some moments of pure brilliance with the artwork of this book.

[Tom]

I think I fall into the I just didn't get it camp. The art was great, especially in the atmospheric scenes, but it was not unusual for me to not know what was going on despite having read the pages a few times. Also the characters seemed rather too similar in appearance at first so I found myself going back for names and descriptions pretty often.

Regarding mythology, it seems the characters in the books tie to the gods mentioned at the end of the chapter:
Rhyd = Lord Crowe
Onil = Elena
Nysis = Tova
Hanhara = Avisleth
Vekha = Mardin?
Attar and Nanita = Elena and Mardin given time?
Iosa = Lady Ure?

Speaking of not getting it - who was Elena's proposed groom? Did we see him before?

I think I'd need another read through or two to try to understand a bit more, but not sure if I'm prepared to do so.

Edited to add: I think my favorite scene from the book was when Marcellus tells Elena how she's lucky that their father isn't on her case all the time - when that's all she's ever wanted.