Tudor History Lovers discussion

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message 1: by Wen (new)

Wen (thespoilingone) | 140 comments I recently got a couple older Tudor time period movies. Lady Jane was one. It is the one from the 80s starting Helena Bonham Carter, as Jane and Cary Elwes, as Guilford.
I liked the movie but had always thought that Jane and Guilford did not at all get along. Was this more just for the movie to make some of her life seem like it was more pleasant or was the account in Innocent Traitor (which is the only book soley about Lady Jane have read so far) pushing thei dislike further than what it was? Does someone know what is closer to the truth?
I caught some historical boo boos but over all liked it in general.


message 2: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Oh, oh Wen thanks for posting this movie. I have it nextflixed so I will be getting it after I finish with The Duchess, cannot wait to watch either one.


message 3: by Wen (new)

Wen (thespoilingone) | 140 comments Well I liked it a lot just was curious about the Jane/Guilford deal with them being all lovesick here but written in Innocent Traitor and hating each other.
I own the Duchess movie and after seeing it went out and got the book to read but have not done so just yet. Was a good movie too.


message 4: by Connie (new)

Connie (boleynfan) | 41 comments I do enjoy this film very much. Helena and Cary are both wonderful in their roles.

This movie is an example of bad history, but a thoroughly enjoyable film.

I only wish Jane had found this kind of love in real life.


message 5: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments I haven't seen the movie but will have to get it soon. It sounds great!

To answer your question though it sounds totally inaccurate regarding their relationship. I wasn't under the impression that they hated each other at the beginning(I haven't read Innocent Traitor yet). I thought it was more of a mutual dislike. Jane didn't want to marry him but agreed finally as a dutiful daughter. They married and then when Jane refused to make Guilford King the hate came. He ran back home to mommy.


message 6: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments I am planning to watch the movie tomorrow. You all will have to do some explaining afterwords though because I don't know much about Lady Jane Grey other than her families ambitions causing her a tragic end.


message 7: by Darbus, Mod #2 (new)

Darbus | 93 comments I was under the impression that their marriage was another piece of manipulation on the part of the two families, both vying for power. Am I correct that Helena Bonham Carter played both Bellatrix Lestrange in the Harry Potter movies, and Mrs. Lovett in Sweeney Todd?


message 8: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Yes, on both counts Darbus; Also, she is married to Tim Burton (director of Big Fish, Edward Scissorhands, Mars Attacks!, etc.)


message 9: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments She was awesome as Bellatrix Lestrange wasn't she? I'm excited to see her in Lady Jane and in such a different role!


message 10: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Yes she was Jennifer! HBC was good in Wings of a Dove as well.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 1903 comments She was also terrific in A Room with a View.


message 12: by Darbus, Mod #2 (new)

Darbus | 93 comments I agree with Colleen and Jennifer, Bellatrix was really well done. Especially in the scene in the Department of Mysteries. I've heard that Sweeney Todd is good as well, but haven't seen more than just a clip of one song from it. I'll have to look this movie up, now.


message 13: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments HBC was good in Sweeney Todd, I liked the movie and anxiously await the play coming to my area anytime soon. Did you know there has been recent evidence that Sweeney Todd was real and not just a character in a penny dreadful?


message 14: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Okay so I finally saw the movie.

My first question is the marriage, were both parties resistant to it?

Did they grow to love each other or not so much?

Were Edward and Jane really that close?

Post more later! This really is my first time delving into the history of Lady Jane, I knew the basic story but not any details.


message 15: by Colleen, Mod #3 (last edited Sep 03, 2009 04:18PM) (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Were Jane and Guilford really nearly saved then Jane's father went and fudged it up one final strike?

No one told me Patrick Suart played Jane Grey's papa, what a nice surprise! Okay so Jennifer, this is the love story in the movie, which sounds precious even if it's untrue:

Guilford is way too fond of the drink/whores/gambling/fighting while Jane reads and generally tries to stay out of the way. The marriage is a sham arranged by both families to get to the throne. Guilford is dragged out of a drunken stupor in a whores' bed and is cross at being forced into the bethrothal, Jane must be beaten then finally (gently) ordered to the engagement by her cousin Edward the King. They hate each other then almost like magic begin to like one another and fall in mad love. Yadda yadda yadda, Jane's final word before she is executed is "Guilford".

I know the love part is too good to be true but false or no it was still the sweetest thing to watch making for a good movie even if it is historically flawed.


message 16: by Wen (new)

Wen (thespoilingone) | 140 comments Colleen wrote: "Were Jane and Guilford really nearly saved then Jane's father went and fudged it up one final strike?

No one told me Patrick Suart played Jane Grey's papa, what a nice surprise! Okay so Jennifer..."



From what I understand the great romance in the movie was absent in real life.

In the Innocent Traitor there is a bit about how Guilford and Jane could possibly have been released if not for Janes good old daddy. It made me cry in the book cause Q. Mary had promised Jane a pardon and when they came to her she thought it was with her pardon and was the opposite and she at first did not even know what had changed. Not sure how completely accurate that is but Weir seems to like to stick to as many facts as possible.



message 17: by Aly (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 854 comments Jane and Guildford were executed because Phillip, Mary's Spanish betrothed, refused to come to England unless all the threats to the throne were destroyed. Of course, Jane's father really didn't help matters when he tried to start another rebellion. Mary had told Jane she would pardon her, but went back on her word as she was basically blackmailed into executing her (Mary was supposedly madly in love with Phillip and would have done anything for him).
as for the relationship between Jane and Guildford, I'm not entirely sure what happened but I also think it was more a mutual dislike thing...


message 18: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments Colleen wrote: "Guilford is way too fond of the drink/whores/gambling/fighting while Jane reads and generally tries to stay out of the way. The marriage is a sham arranged by both families to get to the throne. Guilford is dragged out of a drunken stupor in a whores' bed and is cross at being forced into the bethrothal, Jane must be beaten then finally (gently) ordered to the engagement by her cousin Edward the King. They hate each other then almost like magic begin to like one another and fall in mad love. Yadda yadda yadda, Jane's finally word before she is executed is "Guilford". "

The bit about Jane liking to read and stay out of the way is accurate as far as I can remember, as is her being beaten into marrying Dudley but I don't remember Edward having anything to do with it. I think it was more Northumberland and Jane's parents, her mother especially being quite a bitch (Frances Brandon-Henry's niece) and having little to no patience for her daughters. I also think Guilford quite liked the idea of marrying a Queen. Those Dudleys sure did love power, didn't they? I don't think he did like her much though especially after she wouldn't make him King.

I'm by no means an expert on Jane and am only going on the one book I've read with info about Jane so if I've said anything wrong, I'm looking forward to being corrected :)


message 19: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (last edited Sep 03, 2009 06:52AM) (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments After Colleen's comment, I was curious about Jane's final words so I just looked up their execution and although I haven't had a chance to read it yet I thought it looks quite interesting. It's an "account found in the anonymous Chronicle of Queen Jane and of Two Years of Queen Mary".

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/exjan...


message 20: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments Now for my one unanswered question (posted above) were Edward VI and Jane grey close? the movie portrays them as being close to one another and it seemed to me there was some romantic tension there. They were close in age so... I don't really know much about Jane Grey either.

Her mom was a bitch in the movie, btw. It does seem like the Dudley's were constantly being eventually punished one way or another for being so power hungry.


message 21: by Aly (last edited Sep 04, 2009 03:00PM) (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 854 comments According to Alison Weir's book The Children of Henry VIII, they were as close as a king and a subject could be. Obviously, Jane's parents wanted them to get married, but Edward wanted to mary his Scottish cousin to unite the two countries as his father wished. He was also looking at a French alliance, I believe. That's kinda when the Dudley's started stepping up more in power. There is more, like Jane living with Katherine Parr as Thomas Seymour's ward (Katherine and Thomas got married yadda yadda), but Seymour was convicted of treason by his brother and executed. Katherine died of childbirth. John Dudley took over the Lord Protector job and called himself Lord President, and married his son Guildford to Jane. Its all very convoluted. The Children of Henry VIII really helped to clarify it for me. After I read Innocent Traitor, I was confused about what happened when.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 1903 comments Lady Jane's mother being a bitch seems fairly accurate historically, from what I've read!

I think one of the jeers used at Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, in Elizabeth's reign, was that he was from "three generations of traitors."


message 23: by Ashley (new)

Ashley | 3 comments i just watched this movie last night after hearing so much about it on this board and i really enjoyed it! i was pleasantly surprised how much they tried to stick to the real story (except for the love story of course!). the only jane grey book i have read is The Children of Henry VIII by Alison Weir and from what I learned in that the love story in the movie is waaaaaay off but of course was very entertaining! i especially loved cary elwes, he was hilarious as the drunken Dudley!


message 24: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments The night of the wedding scene was hilarious! He flopped into bed drunk as a skunk and barely had the energy to hold out his arms to his (disgusted) new bride before passing out mouth agape. I think Elwes was an excellent choice for the role of Guilford.


message 25: by Aly (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 854 comments Ok, so I just watched this movie and couldn't help but cry! Cary Elwes did such a good job and so did Helena Bonham Carter. I loved the costuming (Princess Mary looked just like her portrait, creepy!). Except for the love story concept, most of the film was pretty factual which made me smile. I love when film makers keep the integrity of the story!


message 26: by [deleted user] (new)

What is the movie called?


message 27: by Aly (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 854 comments Lady Jane. This thread is for that movie. I highly recommend it!!!!!!


message 28: by Jenifer (new)

Jenifer Strait | 6 comments I had no idea that this was one of Carey Elwes first movies. Apparently Rob Reiner picked Elwes to play in The Princess Bride based on his performance in this movie. Also according to his Bio, Carey Elwes is a distant nephew to Henry VIII and a distant nephew to Henry VIII's third wife Jane Seymour.


message 29: by Colleen, Mod #3 (new)

Colleen (nightoleander) | 1106 comments This one was very good and even if the love bit was innacurate it's nice to imagine Jane had love before dying. Her death scene was so heart-tearing!

Jenifer, really??? How interesting, I did not know that about Elwes!


message 30: by Connie (new)

Connie (boleynfan) | 41 comments Colleen, I agree completely. I hate when films are inaccurate and worse for it (I won't rant against Blanchett's Elizabeth here...). But I too wish Jane's life had had a few happier moments and that she had been in love with Guilford.


message 31: by annie (last edited Jun 27, 2010 06:46PM) (new)

annie (tellsnoemotion) | 147 comments Aly wrote: "Mary was supposedly madly in love with Phillip and would have done anything for him"

I think Mary was more madly in love with the idea of what Phillip was and what he could give her. He was Catholic, and England was in the heavy midst of religious struggling so she wanted to unite the 2 countries and bring the Catholic belief forward for once and for all. She was also desperate to get an heir from him leading back to the first point - without an heir, Elizabeth would rule and the Catholic faith that Mary loved and knew would almost certainly die. I think that reasoning explains her hysterical pregnancies, she was more desperate to become a mother to solidify her faith and kingdom rather than becoming a good wife.

I do think that at first the prospect of Phillip was appealing, I'm sure she believed that she would finally find love and it was something she anticipated due to the fact that she grew up loveless from those that mattered the most in her life. Once she was married though, I personally believe that she realized a great romance was not in her future and her focus turned on solely getting an heir to preserve the faith of her country.

Hope this made sense!


message 32: by Aly (last edited Jun 27, 2010 07:37PM) (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 854 comments It definitely made sense!! I think another reason for the infatuation with Phillip was that he was Spanish. She felt more connection with Spain because it brought it closer to her mother I think. Whenever I read about her phantom pregnancies I feel so sorry for her.


message 33: by annie (new)

annie (tellsnoemotion) | 147 comments That is another good point, I imagine that she felt probably very alone her entire life, especially since she wasn't allowed to even see her mother. I know how she was given the nickname Bloody Mary, but I still sympathize with her, I imagine her life must of been quite lonely and a lot of her later acts were desperate actions for approval from those she believed she needed it from.

Back on subject though - I put Lady Jane into my cart on Amazon! I'm excited to see this movie, it will be nice to see Helena in something that isn't Tim Burton related!


message 34: by Rio (Lynne) (new)

Rio (Lynne) Makes sense to me about Mary. As for Lady Jane, I enjoyed the movie, even though I do not believe they were ever in love. I'm watching all the old movies now. I watched Anne of a Thousand Days and Mary Queen of Scots with Vaness Redgrave. I just ordered Elizabeth R with Glenda Jackson. Everything I've read says it is historically accurate.


message 35: by annie (new)

annie (tellsnoemotion) | 147 comments I think it is quite a far stretch to believe that Jane and Guilford were in love. From anything I've read it seemed like Jane adored her older cousins and had zero desire to become Queen. Guilford only wanted Jane because of the position she could bring him, not because he cared for her in any way. He and his family got their just reward, but it still saddens me that Jane died.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 1903 comments Elizabeth R is excellent.

A Man for All Seasons is also worth a viewing. (In my view it takes the utterly wrong view of St. Thomas Moore, but still a dandy movie.)


message 37: by Rio (Lynne) (new)

Rio (Lynne) "A Man For All Seasons" is on my list. It's a $2.99 rental from Itunes. Turner Movie Classics just aired "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" starring Bette Davis from 1938. Bette did a great Elizabeth.


message 38: by Jan (new)

Jan (libraryhag) | 4 comments I don't think anyone mentioned this but HBC plays Anne Boleyn in the Henry VIII that I think was a BBC production. It is pretty good and an interesting interpretation of Anne and her motives.

Lady Jane, I love the movie but I can't watch the end. Too sad.


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

Wen wrote: "I recently got a couple older Tudor time period movies. Lady Jane was one. It is the one from the 80s starting Helena Bonham Carter, as Jane and Cary Elwes, as Guilford.
I liked the movie but had..."


Wen, can you believe it but I've actually seen this movie and was hoping someone else had to! Helena is amazing in the movie and so young and pretty.
I was also confused about the relationship... glad you brought it up


message 40: by [deleted user] (new)

Jennifer wrote: "She was awesome as Bellatrix Lestrange wasn't she? I'm excited to see her in Lady Jane and in such a different role!"

Jennifer, when first reading the Harry Potter books I always imagined certain people playing certain role. For one I thought Hugh Grant would have been an awsome Proff Lockheart, and then of course in my mind Helena was the perfect Bellatrix, she owned that role!


message 41: by Tammy (new)

Tammy (g8rbucsgirl) | 22 comments Thanks for mentioning this movie! I was able to see it this evening and really enjoyed it. I have read Innocent Traitor and the one person, besides Lady Jane, that I felt really sorry for was Mrs. Ellen. The execution told from her side was just heartbreaking.


message 42: by Tammy (new)

Tammy (g8rbucsgirl) | 22 comments Niecole wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "She was awesome as Bellatrix Lestrange wasn't she? I'm excited to see her in Lady Jane and in such a different role!"

Jennifer, when first reading the Harry Potter books I alway..."


Same here! I pictured HBC as Bellatrix long before the movie was cast.


message 43: by [deleted user] (new)

Hey there Tammy, glad you thought the same, she's just brilliant!


message 44: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments Niecole wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "She was awesome as Bellatrix Lestrange wasn't she? I'm excited to see her in Lady Jane and in such a different role!"

Jennifer, when first reading the Harry Potter books I alway..."


She did and you're right... Hugh Grant would have been great in that role!


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

I know right???? lol, I could already see him in all those pretty robes that Lockheart wore...


message 46: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments The more I think about it, the more I agree! He'd play that stunned, dazed look so well :P


message 47: by [deleted user] (new)

Hahaha yes he would...
And the hair thing, I mean Hugh Grant has great hair! He'd be so good at the whole I'm very into myself thing to


message 48: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments I believe he's played that role before! lol


message 49: by [deleted user] (new)

Hehehe...
When I saw that they got Kenneth Branagh to play the role I was a bit disapointed, I think Hugh Grant would have been a great choice.
I love Hugh Grant, he's brilliant in Romantic comedies, and could you imagine him as Proff Lockheart standing up to Snape and Proff McGonagal?


message 50: by Jennifer, Mod #5 (new)

Jennifer (jennifertudor) | 951 comments I so can! I love him too :)


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