Reading the Detectives discussion
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Died in the Wool
Archive: Ngaio Marsh Buddy Reads
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Died in the Wool
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I really don't miss Bathgate, and although I don't mind Fox, Alleyn's coy 'bantering' is so incredibly patronising that it sets my teeth on edge, so I'm glad he's not here either!Died in the Wool was/is one of my favourites. My main gripe with it that I was always getting misled by the male being called Grace and the female Terence. My brain insisted that Grace was the young woman, and Terence the engineer.
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Very disappointed. We might as well as been in any shire in England for all that any sense of New Zealand came through. The plot was boring and there was far too much exposition: the characters were formulaic and I could not summon up any interest in them. I would never have believed this was written by Ms Marsh. It’s a good job this was not the first of hers that I read!
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I thought the sheep farm setting was great. Perhaps it could have been in another country but, as I know nothing about sheep farms and I don't even know if it is accurate, to me it was simply interesting. Alleyn's introduction to the plateau was quite dramatic.
I agree that the long interviews introducing the victim were drawn out, but I got such a clear view of her by the end that I forgive Marsh. And each character had such a different opinion.
I miss Troy!
I am still in the early stages of re-reading this, but it does strike me that if Fabian and Douglas are still experimenting with their secret device, a year after Florence was murdered, an enemy agent who was after their plans would have been very disappointed. In fact, they will be lucky if the war doesn't end before it's of any use (and Ursula, still training as a VAD, and thinking that's her war work ...)
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The book dates Alleyn arrival on the ranch as May 1943 so there was still a couple of years left (not that the characters would have known that). I expect the end still seemed far away. Its really closer to the halfway mark than to the end.
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https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/ngai...
I think Lesley mentioned this a while ago, so many thanks! Sadly, this is the only one of four episodes from the New Zealand series that seems to be available to watch anywhere - the series also included Vintage Murder, Colour Scheme and Opening Night (the last one of these is not set in New Zealand.)
My problem is that the spy-y bit doesn't really make sense - as it didn't with Colour Scheme. The idea that the enemy were interested in a device which, after 15 months more work is still not functional, is just there to give Alleyn a reason to investigate a murder, as SpyCatcher in New Zealand. Was there enough traffic from that little port close to the mudbaths to warrant basing a spy there, and a submarine, always ready to receive information about which ships were carrying what? If the egg-beater really is a concept worth developing, wouldn't they be better able to proceed if consulting with other engineers and experts?
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Rosina wrote: "My problem is that the spy-y bit doesn't really make sense - as it didn't with Colour Scheme. The idea that the enemy were interested in a device which, after 15 months more work is still not funct..."The Brits seemed to think so
In February 1941, at the suggestion of British military intelligence, New Zealand established the Security Intelligence Bureau (SIB). Modelled on the British MI5, the SIB was intended to manage internal security. Major Kenneth Folkes, a British army officer, was sent from the UK to take charge. The SIB lost all credibility in mid-1942, when convicted conman Sidney Gordon Ross persuaded Folkes that the Nazis were carrying out a sabotage and invasion plan in New Zealand. A police investigation proved that the plot was a fabrication, and Folkes was removed from his post. The police took over management of the SIB, which was disbanded at the war’s end.
Te Ara: Encyclopedia of New Zealand : story, Intelligence services, 1800s to 1945. Retrieved from https://teara.govt.nz/en/intelligence...
I'm not disputing that there might have been a need for counter-espionage in New Zealand (although whether it was serious enough to warrant sending the Yard's Best Man ...), but I do think that neither Mount Moon nor Wai-ata-tapu were likely hunting grounds - either for spies or for counterspies.
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The 'new' Marsh novel, which is another continuation, is also set during the war years, in a hospital in New Zealand, which is interesting.
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Those interviews would NOT play well on TV.
I've just started. I remember this one not being a favourite, but I'm rereading because of the NZ setting.
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http://www.ngaio-marsh.org.nz/index.html
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Very true - the action level needs to be stepped up a bit for the screen.
Sandy wrote: "Judy wrote: "I’ve finished watching the New Zealand TV adaptation of this book, which was very good - pretty true to the book, except that the back story is dramatised instead of unfolding through ..."Well, the outbursts would be dramatic - but the rest, I agree, would be dull as dish water!
Judy wrote: "Do you know if many Ngaio Marsh fans, from New Zealand or beyond, make a pilgrimage to see the Ngaio Marsh House, Lesley and Carol? I think one or both of you mentioned it a little while back. It s..."I don't know anyone that has been there personally, but they seem to run regular open house events so must be popular.
https://www.eventfinda.co.nz/venue/ng...
They also do private tours on request too. Here's a link that has some photos, plus an interesting article on her. I found just before we begun the challenge, but I think now we've read a fair way through her work, it is more meaningful as is the second link below.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/chri...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainm...
Hope all these links work okay. Let me know if they don't.
I have just finished this, in the Fontana Collins Impression of 1989 (cover at https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/...) If some kind person with the right access could attach it to the edition I've set up ....
Rosina wrote: "I have just finished this, in the Fontana Collins Impression of 1989 (cover at https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/...) If some kind person with the right access..."
Before I can do this I need to know the source from which you obtained the cover image.
When I have this information I will do the job.
Lesley wrote: "Before I can do this I need to know the source from which you obtained the cover image."I scanned it myself from my own copy.
Thank you. I do like the image, with so many parts of the murder, though not of course the clue.
Rosina wrote: "Lesley wrote: "Before I can do this I need to know the source from which you obtained the cover image."I scanned it myself from my own copy.
Thank you. I do like the image, with so many parts o..."
All done.
It is nice to see all the covers for the various editions, and to have the right one on the correct edition.
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https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/...
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Judy wrote: "Certainly a striking cover - thank you, Rosina and Lesley! Here's the link that Rosina gave earlier again:https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/..."
Thanks, Judy. I had the link Rosina supplied, I just have to know the origin was from an accepted GR source. If it wasn't I could have my librarian status removed.
Judy wrote: "Lesley, thanks so much for the links to articles about Ngaio Marsh and her house (message 23) - fascinating to read these after we have read quite a few of the novels together. I hadn't realised th..."It appears that most of her characters and settings are fictionalised reality, or in the case of Troy, what she aspired to herself. Her books could almost present an unauthorised biography perhaps!
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Thanks Lesley - I understood that, but I just gave the link again in the thread, so that any members who had missed it could see the image I was commenting on.
I was struggling to work out where the plot was placed. It felt like native characters etc to me (I’m Australian) and I had assumed that it was set in Britain somewhere. But that didn’t add up at all with the descriptions of the farmers and the auctions. But then with the description of the high country I knew it wasn’t Australia. I started to wonder if it was in Africa in one of the other colonial countries there. New Zealand never occurred to me. This is the first Ngaio Marsh I have ever read and I knew both about the author or her roots. Now I’ve understood New Zealand I can say how authentic the descriptions of the scenery and people and places are. It totally makes sense to me. I had to stop after chapter two because I needed to solve this mystery. I’m listening on Audiobook as I didn’t have time to source it in book form. Loving the descriptive passages and the iconic characters so far. Now on with the plot.
You guys. No offense but the war against Japan that was fought in the Pacific from military bases in Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea and Vanuatu was far more significant than any of you seem to understand. Our countries were being invaded. Singapore fell. Americans coming to our rescue was the only thing that saved us from being completely invaded by the Japanese. And if you look back at history you can find that is worse at that time in many ways than Nazi occupation. This war was being lost on most fronts before the Japanese were stupid enough to bomb Pearl Harbour and bring the US into the war which saved our bacon. Most of our elite army were entrenched in Europe on the western front or in Africa fighting the Italians and Germans when the Japanese weighed into the opportunity to make a massive grab for poorly defended and vulnerable territory.
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https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/second-...
I think some people found some aspects of the spy element of this plot somewhat unlikely (can't say a lot more without spoilers!), and also wondered if a Scotland Yard detective like Alleyn would really have been sent to the other side of the world, but that is not to query the significance of the war in the Pacific.
Judy wrote: "wondered if a Scotland Yard detective like Alleyn would really have been sent to the other side of the world, but that is not to query the significance of the war in the PacificThat was specifically my query - and it related as much to the earlier Colour Scheme, which predates the Japanese attacks. I admit that I don't know to what degree the Japanese were perceived as a threat before their attacks on Pearl Harbor and other American/British bases. But even if they were, I doubt if Alleyn had any special knowledge to help him deal with them.
Jemima wrote: "You guys. No offense but the war against Japan that was fought in the Pacific from military bases in Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea and Vanuatu was far more significant than any of you..."Thank you - I’ve been doing some WWI and WWII history reading over the last several months, and want to continue this year, to better understand it all. I’ve not read a lot about the Pacific war, but I will - it must have been terrifying for Australia and New Zealand, I’ve read books/seen movies about the Battle for Britain and how alone they must have felt, trying to survive the onslaught virtually singl-handed. I imagine it was similar for the Aussies and Kiwis - “Um, hello, still here, could use a bit of help, please, or at least our own troops back...” I can’t imagine it.
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Judy wrote: "I'm wondering whether to read Money in the Morgue, the unfinished Ngaio Marsh book which was completed by Stella Duffy soon, as that one is also set in New Zealand - ..."I don't usually go for 'written/completed after author's death by another author' books. Mostly because I usually find them disappointing. But, I thought I might like to read this since NZ in the war as depicted by Marsh has been so controversial in the group, it might be interesting to see how she saw the war by the time she begun this one. I am wondering why, if she begun it during the war, why she never finished it herself since she lived until 1982 and was still writing up to then.
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It would be interesting to know - this interview with Stella Duffy suggests a few possible reasons.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment...
Judy wrote: "Jemima, thanks for the background - but just to make you aware, our mod Lesley and fellow-member Carol are both from New Zealand and Lesley has posted more about the war in NZ over in the spoiler t..."Thanks for letting me know this. I'm glad others have pointed out the significance of the war in the Pacific and its significance for the residents of the countries who were threatened. I will check out the spoiler thread as soon as I've finished. I'm about halfway through the audiobook and loving the depth of the characters that are being portrayed. As I said my first with this author. I feel like I've discovered a hidden gem. I guess because I have not read previous stories with the same detective that the peculiarity of his being there has not struck me in the same way it has others of you. To me he is just one more new character alongside all of the others.
Susan in NC wrote: "Jemima wrote: "You guys. No offense but the war against Japan that was fought in the Pacific from military bases in Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea and Vanuatu was far more significant ..."Thanks for validating that, much appreciated Susan. We had only the men who were deemed unsuitable for the army, either too old or who had jobs or responsibilities that let them out of conscription forming the main defences for ourselves at this time. My Grandfather, who enlisted as a 16 year old in WW1 under a false name, was a part of this National Defence Corps in WW2 and moved away from his family in Sydney to live in far north QLD to train and defend. I know very little detail except for what my Nanna was able to tell me (she was born in 1901 and brought up 7 children in appalling poverty in Sydney while her husband was serving). My Dad was born in 1941 and was 6 years old the first time he met his own father, although to our knowledge, he never actually left the country during his service. My Grandfather became so mentally disturbed in the 10 years after his second service after the second war that he tried to first poison and then shoot his family. They escaped from him off the family farm in outback NSW in a neighbour's borrowed car (Grandfather was granted a soldier's settlement farm after the war), he soon died afterwards of alcoholic poisoning.
My maternal Grandparents were young teens during the war. My Poppa tells stories of living in a tent along a river because they could not afford a home and living off the sweepings of the Weetbix (breakfast cereal) factory where he worked as a cleaner.
Australia was politically forced into being automatically at war when Britain declared war on Germany because the 'Statute of Westminster' was as yet unratified. It is hugely appreciated by Australians and I'm sure Kiwis also when people take the time to learn about their significant contributions and history of the war which did not end with the defeat of the Germans.
It is interesting to me that the perspective of most of the characters in this novel are of people who identify primarily as belonging to Britain, as ex-pats, not as New Zealanders in their patriotic viewpoints. I'm pretty sure that the same could be said in NZ, but by the WW2 there was definitely a national consciousness that went well beyond country of origin. This UK centric viewpoint may have been more prevalent with the landowners and wealthy....I'm not really sure, but for the average Joe on the streets, I don't think that defence of the 'Mother Country' was the primary motivation of Australians at the outbreak of WW2. They had just lived through a period of extreme depression and were pretty much focused on survival. Of course this is only my own view as developed from my own personal influences, others may have another perspective which would be interesting to hear.
Thank you for sharing, Jemima - I can’t believe the hardships suffered by so many during the World Wars and the Great Depression - we get caught up in bad current news and forget the difficulties of the past.
Reading the Detectives
Books mentioned in this topic
Money in the Morgue (other topics)Money in the Morgue (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Stella Duffy (other topics)Stella Duffy (other topics)
Ngaio Marsh returns to her New Zealand roots to transplant the classic country house murder mystery to an upland sheep station on South Island – and produces one of her most exotic and intriguing novels.
One summer evening in 1942 Flossie Rubrick, MP, one of the most formidable women in New Zealand, goes to her husband’s wool shed to rehearse a patriotic speech – and disappears.
Three weeks later she turns up at an auction – packed inside one of her own bales of wool and very, very dead…
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