The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
General Non-Book Discussions
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Café Quito: 'pub' thread for general discussions
Paul wrote: "But generally I can’t think of anything less alike to my reading habits than my dating habits."It's an interesting comparison since most of us in the group, myself included, primarily read fiction.
That’s true, I don’t know where would you have put Waidner, Paul. Trevor posted my answers on the Mookse and Gripes Twitter thread, with my consent, but I realized that I publicly announced that I didn’t like Tolstoy, couldn’t get through Middlemarch, chose books by their cover-nyrb, and had a fling with Dan Brown after I’d outgrown Catherine Cookson! My history with books is as almost as questionable as my history with lovers apparently.Trevor and Paul need to come up with a list that allows us to list our positive experiences with books we love and still love. Maybe next year.
Does anyone mind if I share their If treated dates like books comments with Trevor and Paul? I won’t list your names or this group if you prefer.
If I treated dates like books: So many one night stands,
So many poor choices based on an attractive cover or what others had said,
Yet so many blissful evenings staying up all night because I just had look at them for one more minute
My successful search for my own Heathcliff/Count of Monte Cristo/Mr. Darcy
The happiness from seeing all my favorites on the shelf, just waiting for me to take them up again..
By one night stand do you mean you read the book in one night, or only read one book by the author, Tracy?
Hmmm my approach to reading is not too different to my dating life: do it with passion. Unfortunately in reality the date will see this in desperation so it will last once. With books I can reread and reignite the passion as many times as I can
WndyJW wrote: "By one night stand do you mean you read the book in one night, or only read one book by the author, Tracy?"Hmm…both, I guess. Though if it’s just one book by the author, I might have loved it, but it’s, sadly, the only book. Or it may have been horrible and I have no intention of a repeat. 🫢
If I treated lovers like I treat books, Paul would tell me to let them see other people.
Many successful "blind dates" thanks to the M&G matchmaking service.
That’s brilliant, Lee!I’ve also had many blind dates thanks to this group, Vesna.
Paul wrote: "If I treated lovers as I treat books I'd 'date' someone:- because they were on a prize list
- as all my friends had tried them and enjoyed them
- as I received an Advanced Dating Copy through Ne..."
Just now catching up on this thread. So funny! I especially like Robert's comment about desperation.
Here's my list. I would...
- fall in love with centenarians
- tattoo my name on them, so people know they are mine
- underline my favorite parts of them
- leave them in piles by my bed or boxed away in the basement
- share them with my friends and family
- fall asleep while listening to them
- abandon them if they are too cruel
- enjoy two or three at the same time
- showcase my favorites on a shelf
- rank their performance and defend them from unfair criticism (I'm talking about you, Trust)
- occasionally break their spines (and feel really bad about it)
Trevor saw these and loved them. He’s going to read some, sans names, on his podcast.I’ll spare everyone the visual I had when I read “underline my favorite parts of them”!
WndyJW wrote: "Trevor saw these and loved them. He’s going to read some, sans names, on his podcast.I’ll spare everyone the visual I had when I read “underline my favorite parts of them”!"
I spared you even worse visuals ;-)
Not book related, but this is a fascinating article in the NY Times magazine about the legal infrastructure supporting affirmative action at universities in the US: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/ma...
I have to share my excitement and gratitude: I asked Derek if he would send me a signed postcard if it wasn’t too much of an imposition. Today I received a very cool postcard of a young Allen Ginsberg and a signed copy of That Reminds Me! Derek is both an incredibly gifted poet and a generous and kind man. Thank you so much Derek.
Milano-Sanremo predictions? Would love to see Sagan win it but I think the younger generation of riders is too strong. I was going to try and match the Classics up with book prizes but I’m more familiar with the grand tours and not familiar enough with either to make even semi-amusing analogies (La Primavera is to cycling as ________ is to book prizes?!!).
Don’t get me started - pre kids I travelled around Europe watching the classics. Stood on the Poggio twice. Been at La Redoute, the Muur and the Kwaremont too many times to remember. Without Tom Pidcock (concussion) it will be a hollow victory for whoever wins today though - he was nailed on to win I think
Milan San Remo as a book prize. That’s an interesting one. Perhaps the Booker as it doesn’t always produce a great winner and it’s a very (too?) long race but the Poggio / Guildhall dinner announcement is the most dramatic few minutes of the season. We need more cycling and less books in this forum.
That’s a great callThe Nobel Prize is the World Championships
On paper the most prestigious award which marks you out as special on your sleeves for life but in practice despite recognising most of the greats with some surprisingly arbitrary winners and some all round and all time greats who are non winners
Gurnah is Rui Costa
Borges is Sean Kelly
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "That’s a great callThe Nobel Prize is the World Championships
On paper the most prestigious award which marks you out as special on your sleeves for life but in practice despite recognising most..."
Who is Annie Ernaux?
Republic of Consciousness Prize as the Strade Bianchi - destined to become a classic?Goldsmiths as Paris Roubaix - restricted to a few specialists?
The RoC seems more like say cyclo cross for me - restricted entry and specialised skills needed to win but both incubator of both mainstream talent and with its own cult following for its specialised expertise.
I like that - Isabel Waidner as Mathieu Van der Poel who has gone on from cycloRoC to dominate the wider sport?Or the RoC as the Women's Tour of Britain - survival in doubt after funding partners pull out.
Except the RoC three times failed to recognise her as winner. She is more like Adri and his five runners up medals.
I knew you two could tap into this topic!I’m not sure how I feel about Borges as Sean Kelly… :D
Cycling? The US is full of March Madness! I have two teams vying for my attention today.
US sports and US book prizes are an easy match - both do not let the rest of the world enter
Not sure if you were around but we used to have a Mookse Madness tournament at this time of year - pitching books head to head in a knock out tournament (or in brackets as I think US folk say) But in the last year the side tournament to predict who would win each bracket took over from the actual book match up and rather ruined it (especially as it was the same people involved) - with DM lobbying to ask people to switch votes, tactical voting to try and knock out popular books people had not tipped, and even sock puppet accounts doing multiple votes (no relatives of mine mentioned).
Gumble wrote: "US sports and US book prizes are an easy match - both do not let the rest of the world enter"I'm not sure that's a bad thing, at least for book prizes. Otherwise you would have American judges adjudicating the best books in the world based on US-centric criteria. Probably best for Americans to stay in their lane.
Although, having said that, I would put the PEN/America, NBA, NBCC/Barrios, and former BTBA up against the International Booker for translated books.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/te...My friend told me about this article by a NYT technology reporter’s unsettling conversation with Bing’s AI. I hope it’s not paywalled.
I thought we should move the AI discussion over here.
I am dubious Microsoft’s will be any good given how dreadful Bing is compared to Google as a search engine. What I continue to find fascinating with ChatGPT is how if it doesn’t know it guesses but in a convincing way. Almost as if it has been built by tech bros … oh!
This is the latest book from Charco, Of Cattle and Men.
ChatGPT, who is Ana Paula Maia?
Ana Paula Maia is a Brazilian writer and screenwriter, born on February 31, 1977 in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. She has written several novels, short story collections, and screenplays, and is known for her gritty, realistic writing style. Maia's work often explores themes of violence, poverty, and social inequality, and has been praised for its unflinching portrayal of these issues. Some of her notable works include the novels "A Vida Submarina" (Submarine Life), "De Gados e Homens" (Of Cattle and Men), and "Assim na Terra Como Embaixo da Terra" (As Above, So Below), which won the São Paulo Prize for Literature in 2018.
Can you add some more details e.g. literary or film influences
And Ana Martins Marques wrote A Vida Submarina!
I apologize for the mistake in my previous response. Ana Paula Maia did not write "A Vida Submarina." That novel was actually written by Ana Martins Marques, another Brazilian writer.
Regarding Ana Paula Maia's literary influences, she has cited a number of writers as inspirations for her work. One of her major influences is the Brazilian writer Graciliano Ramos, known for his realistic, socially engaged novels. Maia has also cited the American writer Cormac McCarthy as an influence, particularly his novel "Blood Meridian," which she has described as a "masterpiece."
In terms of film influences, Maia has mentioned several movies that have inspired her writing. One of these is "No Country for Old Men," based on the novel by Cormac McCarthy. Maia has also cited the films of Quentin Tarantino as an influence, particularly his use of violence and dark humor. Additionally, she has mentioned the films of David Lynch and Lars von Trier as sources of inspiration for her work.
Tell me more about her novel De Gados e Homens
"De Gados e Homens" (Of Cattle and Men) is a novel by Ana Paula Maia that was first published in Brazil in 2013. The novel tells the story of a group of cattle farmers in rural Brazil who are struggling to survive in a changing economic and social landscape.
The protagonist of the novel is a man named André, who is the owner of a small ranch in the Brazilian state of Minas Gerais....
(It then proceeded to describe another book in detail)
Really? I thought the main character was a slaughterhouse worker Edgar Wilson?
I apologize for the mistake in my previous response. You are correct that the main character in Ana Paula Maia's novel "De Gados e Homens" (Of Cattle and Men) is actually a slaughterhouse worker named Edgar Wilson, not a cattle rancher named André.
Edgar is a solitary figure who works in a slaughterhouse in a small town in rural Brazil. He is haunted by the memory of his father, who was also a slaughterhouse worker and committed suicide when Edgar was a child.
The novel follows Edgar's daily routine of killing and processing cattle, which he carries out with a quiet, almost mechanical efficiency. Along the way, he encounters a cast of characters, including his co-workers and his estranged brother, who has become a successful businessman.
Through Edgar's story, Maia explores themes of labor, power, and the complex relationship between humans and animals. She portrays the brutal realities of the slaughterhouse industry, as well as the economic and social pressures that drive workers like Edgar to continue working in such an environment.
"De Gados e Homens" has been widely praised for its vivid, uncompromising portrayal of life in the slaughterhouse. The novel was a finalist for the São Paulo Prize for Literature in 2014 and has been translated into several languages.
Is there an english translation.
Yes, there is an English translation of Ana Paula Maia's novel "De Gados e Homens" (Of Cattle and Men). The novel was translated into English by Alexandra Joy Forman and published by Dalkey Archive Press in 2019. The English title of the book is "The Murmur of Bees".
Alexandra Joy Forman translated Saga of Brutes by Ana Paula Maia another trilogy of books. And The Murmur of Bees is by a different author, translator and publisher
I apologize for the confusion, and thank you for correcting me. You are correct that "The Murmur of Bees" is not the English translation of "De Gados e Homens" by Ana Paula Maia.
As far as I am aware, there is currently no official English translation of "De Gados e Homens." However, the novel has been translated into several other languages, including Spanish and Italian.
I apologize again for any confusion caused by my previous responses.
------
Fortunately there now is a translation of De Gados e Homens, by Zoë Perry and published by Charco Press.
The protagonist, Edgar Wilson, is recurrent in the works of Ana Paula Maia, inspired by the American writer Edgar Allan Poe and his short story William Wilson, the stunner made his first appearance in 2007, in the book A Guerra dos Bastardos, and the most recent in 2021, in the work A Cada Quinhuntos uma Alma.
Please describe the phenomenon of Mookseandgripesing in book discussion forums:"Mookse and the Gripes" is a term coined by a blogger named Trevor Berrett in 2011 to describe a behavior observed in book discussion forums, particularly on Goodreads. The term refers to a type of argument where two or more people engage in a heated debate over a particular book, its merits or shortcomings, and they end up talking past each other and focusing more on attacking the other person's argument or character than actually discussing the book.
The "Mookse" refers to the person who is well-read, analytical, and often looks for deeper meanings in literature, while the "Gripes" is someone who is less interested in literary analysis and more likely to criticize the book for its flaws and personal preferences. The argument often turns into a competition between the two types of readers, with neither side willing to listen or acknowledge the other's perspective.
This phenomenon has been observed in various online book communities, and it can lead to toxic and unproductive discussions that discourage people from participating. The term "Mookse and the Gripes" has become a shorthand for this type of argument, and some online book groups have adopted rules to discourage this type of behavior and promote more respectful and productive discussions.
Hard to argue and wonderfully makes the link to Trevor and to Goodreads (NB all I fed it was the question shown) and then makes up something completely plausible but invented. So who here is a Mookse and who is a Gripes? I think I am really a Gripes who likes to think he is a Mookse.
I think we’re all probably a bit of both. Does ChatGPT have access to our forum? That could be…interesting. I’m sure it has Trevor’s blog at its fingertips.
As of now it doesn’t have live data. Although it knows who I am as a literary reviewer (it does tend to flatter to deceive)
Mod
I think it nicked some of it from the group intro. Very impressive though and rather funny - this was completely unprompted other than asking it was Mookseandgripsing was.
Mod
This is AI in action. We don’t know if it’s right or not, but it sounds good and is now the history of our group.
David wrote: "This is AI in action. We don’t know if it’s right or not, but it sounds good and is now the history of our group."Isn't that what this is programmed to do, i.e. not necessarily to provide a correct answer but to give a reply that's formed in the correct way, hence the convincing but sometimes fake sources etc
Yes but it is pretty impressive and a massive advance on anything we had before. And this is GPT3 not even 4.
Maybe GPT3 can provide whole discussion threads. We'll just ask it what each member would say about a particular book. ;p
Marc wrote: "Maybe GPT3 can provide whole discussion threads. We'll just ask it what each member would say about a particular book. ;p"So far, it seems to be doing all right using Paul as an avatar!
It’s currently limited to 50,000 words in text it can parse - which is a little under 200 pages of a typical novel. Hence why it’s adopted Paul as an avatar.
It's all about being one of the humans it allows to live. It's now become my bestie. When I first used it it had no idea who I was. Now it waxes lyrical about me:Paul Fulcher is a book reviewer and a Goodreads user who has been involved in the International Booker Prize Shadow Jury in the past. He is based in the UK and has been reviewing books on Goodreads for over a decade.
Fulcher is known for his in-depth and thoughtful reviews of international literature, particularly books from Europe and Asia. He has been a member of several literary prize shadow juries, including the International Booker Prize Shadow Jury in 2018 and 2019.
As a member of the International Booker Prize Shadow Jury, Fulcher read and reviewed the longlisted books, shared his opinions and insights on Goodreads, and discussed the books with other members of the Shadow Jury. He also selected his own shortlist and winner, which he announced before the official shortlist was released.
Fulcher's reviews and opinions on international literature are widely respected by readers and other book bloggers. He has a large following on Goodreads and has been featured in several literary publications, including the Times Literary Supplement.
Overall, Paul Fulcher is a respected member of the international literary community and has contributed greatly to the discussion and promotion of international literature through his reviews and participation in literary prize shadow juries such as the International Booker Prize Shadow Jury.
The Mookse and the Gripes
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I forgot to answer 11. My “high-school sweetheart” ..."
The crap candy - and even the misuse of that word to mean things not made of candy - is American :-)
Which one for Isabel - none of the categories suit. Certainly wasn't love at first sight, three books isn't a committed long-term relationship and it isn't friends with benefits (they aren't easy reads) and all the rest are essentially negative.