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Members' Chat > TOR publishing embargos library Ebooks

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message 1: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments in the genre news in the last few days, there has been some rumbling about how TOR is handling declining ebook sales.

relevant news article: https://io9.gizmodo.com/tor-publishin...

They've decided to blame library E-Book lending. Anyone with a half a brain could tell that this should have little to do with the decline in sales - opposed to spending $12-$20 dollars on a new kindle book, people wait until the price comes down. Libraries may have several copies of a book to lend, but the number of people who can check out and read the 5 copies of a coveted ebook over 4 months is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual sales of a book.

I've sent an email off to TOR's feedback department, because I feel very, very strongly about libraries. The gist of this is that I will not be purchasing any TOR books that are not available for a library to lend in E-Book format (provided, of course, that it could be purchased in ebook format elsewhere).


message 2: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new)

Allison Hurd | 13043 comments Mod
Nooo, Tor, be good!

Seriously, ebook prices are out of control. Also, I recently learned that it's pretty standard practice to jack the price for library purchasing systems to often twice the retail or more. So the library with a budget can only afford a copy, and people who are on the fence don't want to spend $15 on a book they might not love. Ridiculous.


message 3: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments The publishing industry is often utterly ridiculous. They were slow to adopt e-books and when they did they made a complete hash of formats and functionality, allowing amazon to gain a virtual monopoly.

then they got caught conspiring with apple to jack prices up, paid huge fines but *got to jack prices up anyway.*

The overhead for publishing a physical copy vs publishing a digital copy is not transparent, so the idea that in order to recoup costs, make a tidy profit and pay royalties an ebook should cost as much as a hardcover is utterly ludicrous. I'm certain that the authors *aren't making more,* so I always have to wonder who exactly is making the money in these equations?


message 4: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 2611 comments RE: Library prices:

Actually- from what I understand libraries pay even more than 2x retail and their licenses to loan the book can expire after X number of uses or after Y amount of time.

And yeah- prices on ebooks are stupid. Honestly- I refuse to pay more than $3.99 for one- and $3.99 is reserved for authors who are favorites and rarely go on sale.

The fact is- Amazon or the Publishers could take an ebook away any moment without notice. You don’t ever “own” an ebook, and they have no resale value. If I spend $15 on a hardcover book at least I can trade it to a used store or donate it or lend it out and recoup some of that cost. I wouldn’t spend $15 on an ebook I might hate, then I’d just go get a physical copy.

This is disappointing. I always liked Tor.


message 5: by Cheryl (new)

Cheryl  (cherylllr) | 2287 comments :sigh:
I guess the industry is still sorting itself out.
Time for Tor to get smarter about earning reader loyalty, not dumber about antagonizing us.


message 6: by Trike (new)

Trike On the one hand, I don’t get how library books could impact sales.

On the other, waiting four months for a book is not a big deal. If someone absolutely must read the latest book right now, they should buy it.

For me this is a non-issue.


message 7: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Trike wrote: "On the one hand, I don’t get how library books could impact sales.

On the other, waiting four months for a book is not a big deal. If someone absolutely must read the latest book right now, they s..."


I have the means to go out and blow $20 bucks on a book, if I desperately want to read it. In fact, I do things like that, and try to leave the library copies there for people who can't. Not everyone is financially as fortunate as I am, so I see libraries as a safety net. Treating the library like it's a burden is really about treating poor people badly, and limiting access to those with wealth.

Also, I spent my college years working in a library, and my mother is an acquisitions specialist for a major university library - so the subject is rather close to my heart.


message 8: by Robert (last edited Aug 24, 2018 10:16PM) (new)

Robert Davis (robert_davis) | 78 comments Libraries make up a large percentage of ALL book sales (print and e), without libraries, the publishing houses would collapse! (well, maybe not, but certainly suffer) Most people have no conception of just how many books libraries actually purchase.

I also volunteer a good deal of my time to my library. I am on the board of The Friends of the Library here, and we manage book sales as well as other fundraisers to help fund library activities.

SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL LIBRARY




message 9: by Trike (new)

Trike Lowell wrote: "Treating the library like it's a burden is really about treating poor people badly, and limiting access to those with wealth. ."

I think that’s overstating it. A delay of four months is not denial of access.

If Tor goes out of business or has to cut back on the number of books they publish, *that* would be denial of access. Although I rather doubt they’re on the verge of going under, since they did just throw $3 million at Scalzi not that long ago. Still, it’s a for-profit business, not a charity.

Even if every publisher followed suit, so what? Some readers wouldn’t get the book on release day. Which never happens anyway. The library system here in NH has a delay just because of the logistics of processing new books. Adding them to the database, checking them, modifying them with covers and tape and whatnot.

I’ve often been the first person on the list for new books and DVDs, and I don’t hink I’ve ever gotten something quicker than a week after it was released.

Also, patience is a virtue. All good things come to those who wait.


message 10: by Cheryl (new)

Cheryl  (cherylllr) | 2287 comments Ok, see, I should have clicked through.
Now that I've done so, I see that:
It's not a real embargo, just a 4 month delay.
Still not friendly, but not as bad as I feared.


message 11: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 2611 comments I don’t know- I still find it annoying. As Lowell mentioned- libraries are a valuable resource for people who are budget conscious- people who don’t have $10-$20 to throw out on an ebook or a hardcover book. In many cases: a library may be a person’s only access to books.

I didn’t use the library hardly at all last year- but using it this year hasn’t affected my purchasing habits. The only real difference is- I get to read more new books rather than books on price drop.

As Trike mentioned- waiting four months or just getting a physical copy isn’t really that big a deal- I’m not that impatient, it’s just more the group of people they are targeting that bothers me.

The article talks about how libraries believe they actually help sales- and this is a sentiment I agree with. You borrow a book from the library- and you discover something you love. An author that you can’t believe you’ve been missing out on all this time or a series you don’t want to put down. The next time a book by that author is released: people like me- who can sometimes afford it, are more likely to actually purchase a book by that author to keep forever rather than waiting for a library copy to come available, because as I can- I like to support the authors/publishers I love.

Conversely- if I see a book that’s getting a lot of buzz as a new release, but I have 4 months to read other people’s reviews and compare notes, I might decide I don’t actually want to read it in the end and not even bother with the library copy or give it a chance. Which means publishers would be reaching a smaller audience overall with less chance of grabbing those readers that might have really loved it.

It just seems like a stupid, no-win situation to me.


message 12: by AMG (last edited Aug 25, 2018 07:53AM) (new)

AMG (thenecessarysalamander) | 306 comments It does seem odd. What it means for me is that I'll request the hardcover rather than the ebook version for upcoming Tor releases. However, people who can't physically get to their library often will have to wait a while, which is a shame.

I've bought several ebooks because I really was enjoying them but the library copy was due. I wouldn't have bought them otherwise. The only reason I buy ebooks when I have no idea how the book is is if it's on sale.

Also, the waitlist on ebook new releases and popular ebooks at my library system (a city-wide one) is generally pretty long. There are a few ebooks I've been waiting for for nearly a year. If people wanted to read the book that badly, they would have already bought it.

I think that, after doing this for a while, they won't notice much difference and will hopefully go back to allowing libraries to purchase ebooks right after release.


message 13: by Brian (last edited Aug 25, 2018 08:04AM) (new)

Brian Anderson Typically, if you wait, you can get a mass market paperback for a few bucks. There are book swaps as well. *disclosure* I'm a Tor author (recently signed). Even still, you can't fault a publisher for trying to make a profit. It's not like they're Big Pharma or the oil industry. They produce books. And those I've met have been awesome people who care deeply about what they do. Their only goal is to put out great stories that readers will love. They're not looking for ways to screw over poor people. They just want to be able to keep doing what they love doing. That means profit is a consideration.


message 14: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 2611 comments I’m not faulting them for trying to make a profit. I just think there are probably other things they could look at as being the cause.

Why do libraries having ebooks affect ebook sales but not libraries having hard copies? Why don’t libraries having hard copies affect hard copy sales? I’m just not seeing the logic there.

Amanda mentioned waitlists being very long for ebooks- I also experience the same thing. I put The Power ebook by Naomi Alderman on hold in February of March of this year and didn’t get it until July despite my library having five or six copies to share and buying more while I was on hold. If any of those people wanted it that badly- they would have just bought it.

And I hate to get into a slippery slope argument here- but what happens if over Christmas ebook sales pick up and they see that as proof of their argument? What happens if they decide libraries shouldn’t have ebooks after all? What happens if other publishers follow suit? Then how much more harm have they done?


message 15: by CBRetriever (new)

CBRetriever | 4627 comments I seem to remember that most publishers were leery of letting libraries even loan ebooks as there was (in their minds) too much danger of people downloading the book, running it through a program to remove DRM and then selling the book elsewhere (or giving it away to scads of people).


message 16: by AMG (last edited Aug 25, 2018 11:02AM) (new)

AMG (thenecessarysalamander) | 306 comments I'm not thinking they're trying to screw poor people over. I don't think Tor is some evil corporation or something.

I just think that it's not really a logical step for them to do this.

Ebook sales suffer because it's very easy to pirate ebooks, despite the measures companies take to prevent that, not because of libraries. I understand they want to make a profit. I just don't understand how they arrived at the conclusion that library copies were hurting their profits. People who checked out the ebooks and waited in those six month long waitlists for a copy weren't going to be buying it off Amazon and didn't care about the initial hype for a book.

If anything, it might encourage more piracy when some of the people who aren't willing and/or able to purchase ebooks but yet prefer ebooks search for an ebook, see that the library doesn't have a copy, and think, "Well, I guess I'll pirate it then" without realizing that the library will eventually get an ebook copy, just after a few months' wait.


message 17: by Trike (new)

Trike Sarah wrote: "And I hate to get into a slippery slope argument here- but what happens if over Christmas ebook sales pick up and they see that as proof of their argument? What happens if they decide libraries shouldn’t have ebooks after all? What happens if other publishers follow suit? Then how much more harm have they done?"

No sense in borrowing trouble. We’ll cross that bridge when we get there.

I want to underscore the point that this is just about ebooks, not physical books. So this talk of “think of the po’ folk!” is silly.

I volunteer with an organization that helps people who are disadvantaged, elderly, infirm, etc., most of whom are on public assistance. I take them to doctor and dentist appointments, grocery shopping, deliver meals to them, and even take them to the library. These folks don’t read ebooks. They don’t have smartphones (most don’t even have cellphones). They don’t have the internet.

If you can afford a $1000 iPad and $1500 a year for Internet, you can buy a couple books if you can’t control your instant gratification impulses.

Libraries here have iPads and Kindles to loan, but most of the people I help only get to the library once a month, which means they can’t check out tablets. The library will grant extensions to books, but it’s hard to justify tying up a device by loaning it to one person and denying it to the 2 or 3 other people who might check it out. I suspect those devices don’t have the latest ebooks on them, anyway, because the license only allows for a limited number of downloads. As I mentioned above, exactly zero of the 20+ people I help out with have the internet. They all have a landline telephone and basic cable TV, because that’s part of government assistance, but anything beyond that they have to pay for themselves. People on EBT cards don’t have that kind of money.


message 18: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new)

Allison Hurd | 13043 comments Mod
I mean, lots of people with EBT cards do have internet and a smart phone or tablet, and my friends with various disabilities do use a lot of ebook or audiobooks from the library :-) Maybe the difference between urban and less urban settings?

But 4 month wait also isn't a killer for me, in general.


message 19: by Donald (new)

Donald | 240 comments Sarah wrote: "what happens if over Christmas ebook sales pick up and they see that as proof of their argument?"

Very specific response: in general companies compare quarter to previous quarters at the same point in the year (year on year changes), rather than directly to the previous quarter to account for seasonal changes like this.


message 20: by Lowell (last edited Aug 26, 2018 09:36PM) (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Trike wrote: "f you can afford a $1000 iPad and $1500 a year for Internet, you can buy a couple books if you can’t control your instant gratification impulses."

Howabout a $50 kindle fire tablet (that's not on sale - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01... by the way), and free wifi at starbucks or any of the other bazillion places that have it?


message 21: by Oleksandr (new)

Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Sarah wrote: "Why do libraries having ebooks affect ebook sales but not libraries having hard copies? Why don’t libraries having hard copies affect hard copy sales? I’m just not seeing the logic there."

I guess it is actually about piracy. There is no way to protect an ebook from being copied if a person is determined... a very determined group of persons can even buy/can/distribute ha hardcopy in a day, as happened with one of the Harry Potter books. So, the publisher hopes to get money from those who cannot wait for a new book, because if you buy one you probably (there are actually experiments that support it) will not upload it for a sharing unlike the library's copy. Yes, the overwhelming majority doesn't do it, but even one in a 100 is enough to greatly simplify getting a copy illegally.
Therefore, Tor does a natural experiment. I hope they'll share the results with detailed data to analyse


message 22: by Trike (new)

Trike Lowell wrote: "Trike wrote: "f you can afford a $1000 iPad and $1500 a year for Internet, you can buy a couple books if you can’t control your instant gratification impulses."

Howabout a $50 kindle fire tablet (..."


People who need my help to get out of the house once a month don’t hang out at Starbucks. Nor can they afford to spend $50.

I don’t think you fully grasp the idea of poverty. These folks have ZERO discretionary income. They can’t even afford cigarettes.


message 23: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Trike wrote: "People who need my help to get out of the house once a month don’t hang out at Starbucks. Nor can they afford to spend $50.

I don’t think you fully grasp the idea of poverty. These folks have ZERO discretionary income. They can’t even afford cigarettes. ."


I think you should be very careful about assuming people's life backgrounds. But go on, tell me how I don't know what poverty is. Please.


message 24: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new)

Allison Hurd | 13043 comments Mod
Hey, I've tried hinting, but I'm pretty uncomfortable making broad, sweeping statements about people in poverty, friends. Let's focus on the topic and our personal experiences rather than trying to determine who and who is not considered impoverished. I'd hate to find we had a member reading this who became embarrassed about any of their choices given their financial situation. Thanks!


message 25: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 2611 comments Oleksandr wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Why do libraries having ebooks affect ebook sales but not libraries having hard copies? Why don’t libraries having hard copies affect hard copy sales? I’m just not seeing the logic th..."

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for clarifying.


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments The problem with publishers and libraries is the same problem with publishers and readers: they do not think of us as their customer. They think of the book seller as their client only.

That is very short sighted as libraries are the places that build life-long readers. They can lose people just as easily as they can win them.

As a kid growing up, I could have never read as much as I did without the library. New books, old books - all books. That access as a kid rewarded authors and publishers when I became an adult.

And ebook piracy is not the reason they don't sell as well, it's bad actors and programs like Kindle Unlimited and scribd. I stopped buying quite a few new authors when I saw the crazy crap they pull on readers - including (infuriating) book stuffing, harassment, copyrighting the word "cocky" and all the rest of the bullshit they get up to. I'm a book buyer and I'm disgusted. Most of my ebook money this year went to specialty printings instead. Sucks to be them (other ebook authors) but SubPress had a good year off me.

And we haven't even gotten to the fact that people have access to a lot of distractions as well. I got fed up with a read last night and dropped it to watch YouTube and play Tsuro - all without changing devices. So....


message 27: by Faith (new)

Faith | 331 comments Tor won't admit that their business plan is at fault so they are pretending that library sales are hurting them, instead of the high prices they charge for their ebooks and the competition from indie authors who are giving their books away for free or listing them on kindle unlimited.


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments Faith wrote: "Tor won't admit that their business plan is at fault so they are pretending that library sales are hurting them, instead of the high prices they charge for their ebooks and the competition from ind..."


Oh, agreed here, too. I wanted to buy a book but the damn ebook was $13!!!! And it's less than 300 pages! Pass.


message 29: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Sarah wrote: "The article talks about how libraries believe they actually help sales- and this is a sentiment I agree with. You borrow a book from the library- and you discover something you love. An author that you can’t believe you’ve been missing out on all this time or a series you don’t want to put down. The next time a book by that author is released: people like me- who can sometimes afford it, are more likely to actually purchase a book by that author to keep forever rather than waiting for a library copy to come available, because as I can- I like to support the authors/publishers I love."

I can think of several authors whose books i've bought in multiple formats, all because I found them in the library when I was in middle school or high school.

Plus, libraries often do a better job of curating interesting new genre fiction than the sad little shelf at Barnes & Noble (or other physical bookstores) that just have a bajillion copies of the same 4 series on the shelf.


message 30: by Micah (last edited Aug 28, 2018 12:25PM) (new)

Micah Sisk (micahrsisk) | 1436 comments I don't see a 4 month wait for an ebook as a hardship.

The average publishing date of the ebooks I read is probably 3 to 15 years ago...or longer.

I've also never been so desperate for a book that I've bought the hardback copy. Nor have I ever rushed out to the library to get the latest hot-selling book.

Maybe I'm a lot different from your typical mainstream reader but I simply don't feel inconvenienced by this.

I'm way more inconvenienced by the price traditional publishers want to charge for books that were originally published 35 or 40 years ago.

For example, the Kindle version of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? from Ballantine Books was published in ebook format in 2008, TEN years ago. The original book was published FIFTY years ago ... Current price: $11.99.

Not exactly a hot seller today probably. Even the ebook is ancient by today's marketing standards.

I just don't get it.


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments Micah wrote: "I don't see a 4 month wait for an ebook as a hardship.

The average publishing date of the ebooks I read is probably 3 to 15 years ago...or longer.

I've also never been so desperate for a book tha..."


I think a lot of people in this thread are thinking of all library patrons as just like us. We...are the exception, not the rule. It's not an inconvenience to someone who has 50 unread books to not read this latest book. You have a TBR larger than most people's read list. It's not the same for people who aren't avid readers.

Example: the parent trying to get their kid to read more. I have a friend who really wants his son to read. They've tried everything but nothing caught his attention until some series called something "Vey." So, those books are not cheap but they got him reading. The kid waited anxiously to get each new book - but if the books didn't materialize, he was totally ok with watching TV.

I think having to wait 4 months for the latest Vey book could have kiddo thinking more about his favorite cartoons than the books. That's back to what I said about the library being where life-long readers are created.

And to say "well tell his parents to go buy it for him" is to assume how much spending money they have available. And assuming makes as ass out of you and me.


message 32: by CBRetriever (new)

CBRetriever | 4627 comments Micah wrote: "For example, the Kindle version of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? from Ballantine Books was published in ebook format in 2008, TEN years ago. The original book was published FIFTY years ago ... Current price: $11.99"

You need to keep watch on ereaderiq.com

We started tracking this book on July 29, 2010.
This book was $7.59 when we started tracking it.
The price of this book has changed 55 times in the past 2,953 days.
The current price of this book is $11.99 last checked 9 hours ago.
This lowest price this book has been offered at in the past year is $1.99.
The lowest price to date was $1.99 last reached on July 31, 2018.
This book has been $1.99 2 times since we started tracking it.
The highest price to date was $11.99 last reached on August 2, 2018.
This book has been $11.99 4 times since we started tracking it.
This book is currently at its highest price since we started tracking it.


message 33: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Micah wrote: "I just don't get it. "

To be fair, E-Book pricing is a ridiculously strange market that seems to follow no rules and has no transparency - especially because it lacks a secondary market and there is no transparency/accountability from the publishers.


message 34: by Chris (new)

Chris | 1046 comments I did a search at my library's website for all their ebooks published in 2017. The number is 29,105. From 2016, the library has 40,574 ebooks. And so on. I'm sure that avid readers can find something that wasn't published in the last four months and is worth their time.


message 35: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Chris wrote: "I did a search at my library's website for all their ebooks published in 2017. The number is 29,105. From 2016, the library has 40,574 ebooks. And so on. I'm sure that avid readers can find somethi..."

Moving the goal-posts doesn't change the publisher's poor behavior and overall anti-library message.


message 36: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new)

Allison Hurd | 13043 comments Mod
Yeah, it sounds like we're having two different discussions here. One is "surely people can find something to read" and the other is "libraries are important and we shouldn't cast doubts on them as institutions."

They're not even necessarily at odds! The reason people can find so many things to read is because libraries are important, and we've spent decades establishing them as valuable institutions. So, as a value-signal, Tor is flirting with hinting that they think libraries are drains rather than assets, which is, I think, what upsets Lowell.


message 37: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (last edited Aug 28, 2018 07:07PM) (new)

Allison Hurd | 13043 comments Mod
I'm trying to decide if I'd feel differently if the bookselling model was different. Like how hardbacks came out before paperbacks in the olden times haha. If e-books came 4 months after hardbacks, would this statement irk me as much?

I think no. I think it's that it does feel like there's a penalty that's getting me.

Logistically, 4 months doesn't change much for me, personally, but then also my librarians are super cool and have ordered physical books on my recommendation, so I personally know that I can get my hands on books within a couple weeks if I don't want to shell out for them. That's a pretty privileged spot to be in.

I can imagine it being a lot more onerous if, say, it as a book for college and I was trying to afford everything still, or if I was carefully choosing leisure activities to be within a strict budget, and my favorite author released something or my book club selected a book that was "too new" for my library. And in either case, I do balk at the notion that libraries are "second class" because so much of my heart (and so few of my tax dollars) lives there.


message 38: by Sarah (new)

Sarah | 2611 comments Allison wrote: "Yeah, it sounds like we're having two different discussions here. One is "surely people can find something to read" and the other is "libraries are important and we shouldn't cast doubts on them as..."

Yes, this is what was bothering me too. As most have said- 4 months are really no big deal. I rarely get around to reading a new release as it is released. It’s more of who they are blaming their poor ebook sales on- but someone up above mentioned piracy and that does make more sense to me. Also- I can’t shake the feeling that they are, as you say “penalizing” an institution that I find so valuable to the community.

Additionally what worries me is what the fall out of the decision will be. I think it was CB Retriever further up thread that mentioned it was a fight for libraries to get ebooks and this is still true and I think still an ongoing battle. Libraries pay ridiculous prices for ebooks and then they don’t event get to “keep” them. Most licenses for library ebooks expire after so many reads, in theory the same number of times a paperback could be read before having to be recycled.


message 39: by Lowell (new)

Lowell (schyzm) | 567 comments Allison wrote: "I'm trying to decide if I'd feel differently if the bookselling model was different. Like how hardbacks came out before paperbacks in the olden times haha. If e-books came 4 months after hardbacks, would this statement irk me as much?"

I think that's a really good question - and my answer is "no."

I place a higher value on hardcover books due to production value, and mass-market paperbacks do not fit that value. However, I also find that the cost of mass-market paperbacks has gone through the roof in the last 20 years.

I had a long ramble about ebook price fixing, and the reasons I still prefer ebooks, but it's more than a little off topic.

I will note, that ebook piracy from overdrive is very, VERY easy - but to be honest, it's very easy from *every* ebook source. I absolutely will not go further into methodologies or anything that would tell anyone how to bypass that security, but I am pretty sure that anyone with the smallest amount of tech savvy and google could figure it out in half an hour (or less). I want to call out here that while I know how, I don't do it because i'd rather support the authors AND have the tangential benefits of amazon like whispersync and online access to my notes and highlights.


message 40: by Micah (new)

Micah Sisk (micahrsisk) | 1436 comments Lowell wrote: "mass-market paperbacks has gone through the roof in the last 20 years..."

And yet ebooks are very often the same price as paperbacks, or just slightly cheaper (I've actually seen ones MORE expensive than the paperbacks).

Go figger.


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments I come to GR via a mobile book reading website. I have been firmly indoctrinated to not give a shit about book piracy. Why? Because - in my opinion - its not and never has been the issue publishers want it to be.

I think that the person who is going to pirate the book was never going to buy the book so there is no money lost. As Lowell mentioned, pirating a book is incredibly easy - but I know of no one who would jump through the hoops of borrowing the book from the library first. They'd just pirate it.

The person who is going to buy the book is going to buy the book. Period.

Then there's people like me who buy too many books - no one talks about us.


message 42: by Micah (new)

Micah Sisk (micahrsisk) | 1436 comments MrsJoseph wrote: " there's people like me who buy too many books - no one talks about us..."

Well ... not outside of 12 step programs for bookaholics.
;D


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments Micah wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: " there's people like me who buy too many books - no one talks about us..."

Well ... not outside of 12 step programs for bookaholics.
;D"



Dude. I've bought so many books this year that I just...stop counting. 🤐 And I'm OCD. I am starting to feel just a little embarrassed and IDK if I want to actually figure out how much I've spent.


colleen the convivial curmudgeon (blackrose13) | 2674 comments Personally, I think the low sale of e-books is exactly the ridiculous pricing metric.

I primarily use the library for books because I am a picky reader and, frankly, I got tired of spending so much money on books that I'd end up not liking and then having to figure out how to store and/or get rid of the things.

Thus, library.

Of course, I also greatly prefer paper books and will only get the ebook version if they have that version and not a paper version. (Or if I'm looking for a gym book.)

As to pirating... not saying that I've ever pirated books but, if I did, it would primarily be because those books are ones that are lower on my priority list and if I can't find them at the library I'm sure as hell not spending $12 on an ecopy of a book that I can't even resell or give to someone.

Most of the books that I've wanted to read that my library doesn't have has a used paperback version for, like, a buck. I'm not spending more on an ecopy of a book that I could get in battered paperback form for cheaper. *shrugs*


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Personally, I think the low sale of e-books is exactly the ridiculous pricing metric."

THIS, too. I almost bought a new ebook that looked promising BUT (as I mentioned previously) it is $12.99 for the less than 300 page ebook. NOPE. Not when I can get the Broken Earth series books for about $10-$12 each AND they are all closing in on 500 pages AND all of them won Hugos.

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Most of the books that I've wanted to read that my library doesn't have has a used paperback version for, like, a buck. I'm not spending more on an ecopy of a book that I could get in battered paperback form for cheaper. *shrugs*

I am a big supporter of used books, used book stores, used books on Amazon and Library book sales. BIG supporter.


message 46: by Oleksandr (new)

Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments library ebooks cost more than the same title on Amazon (or other seller), because you buy not a book, but a right to read so to speak. With lending option on, this means up to 2 people can enjoy that right (one - temporary). Most people don't use the lending option

For library books they can be loaned 7 times (unless not changed), so it is an equivalent to roughly 6-7 retail copies, because while the book you bought you can read as many times as you want, usually a few books are re-read. Thus the higher price tag


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments Oleksandr wrote: "library ebooks cost more than the same title on Amazon (or other seller), because you buy not a book, but a right to read so to speak. With lending option on, this means up to 2 people can enjoy th..."

I know why they charge so much but it's still not right. Books aren't a "pay per read" exchange. At least, they were not before ebooks.

And the fact that people can take ebooks back is the reason I am NOT willing to spend a crap ton of money on ebooks. Hardbacks? Yes. Trade Paperbacks? Yes. MMPB? nope. Ebooks? Hell no.


message 48: by Cheryl (new)

Cheryl  (cherylllr) | 2287 comments Wait, the library license for ebooks is only 6-7 loans? I assumed something like twice that. So, popular books like a James Patterson they keep renewing the license?

And if I don't get on the list the ebook might be gone by the time I get around to it, even if it's just a few years old?


MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 2207 comments Cheryl wrote: "Wait, the library license for ebooks is only 6-7 loans? I assumed something like twice that. So, popular books like a James Patterson they keep renewing the license?

And if I don't get on the lis..."


Yes. Crappy and asshole-ish, isn't it? As if one book can't be read more than 6 or so times before it falls apart. That's their excuse, BTW. That ebooks won't fall apart and get re-purchased in the way paper copies do.

TBH, I stopped borrowing ebooks from the library because of this reason. I want to save the loans for people who don't live in easy driving distance. I only borrow ebooks now if there is no other option. I go for hardcopies first, even if I have to do the interlibrary loan system.


message 50: by Cheryl (new)

Cheryl  (cherylllr) | 2287 comments Well geeminy. I choose hardcovers first, too, because I like 'em better. And yes, of course they last many more reads than 7.

But I have lots of newish ebooks on my to-read list that are (were!) available at libraries but only in that format. Maybe I'll have to learn piracy skills just so I can have them in my queue. Not really, because I have no tech skills. But fooey.


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