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Agnes Szalkowska | 386 comments Asia Argento accused of assaulting Jimmy Bennett.
So Ms. Argento was accused of sexual assaulting Jimmy Bennett in California hotel room in 2013. She was 37 at the time while Mr. Bennett was just 17 yeas old. ( The age of consent in California is 18 )

Last year Mr. Bennett approached Ms. Argento and ask for 3,5 million in damages after she went public over Weinstein.
An agreement of 380,000 was reported to have been reached where Mr. Bennett, now 22 , agreed to give Ms. Argento, now 42 a photography of them lying in bed and it's copyright.

So my questions are :

Do this really happened?
What cause that? trauma ?
What happens now with MeToo?
Do people stop believe in that movement?
or
What does the movement do with victims who may also be victimizers?


message 2: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 21, 2018 05:15AM) (new)

Tough questions that need to be thought.

I would say that a cause/movement is first values not people. So if someone is leaving a cause because one (public) person of that movement did something wrong then I would say that this person did not believe in this cause. I have not read any article about this case and it will be quite difficult to figure out what happened because of the lack of subjectevity of the articles I suppose.

According to the law if what happened happened it is illegal. Maybe this young man was forced or maybe he manipulated the woman to get something in return and this would not surprise me.

If there is no consent I believe there is a high chance of trauma after that. What kind of trauma? No idea.

What does the movement does with victims that were victimizers? I guess it depends on how victimizers they were. Of course it is not acceptable, I would not like to be jugde of that situation but if I had to I would do it. Just like I said in the thread trendy feminism, there are always slow poisons. I guess it is important to know wether this situation happened and if the person if truly sorry. If she is, then, I am tempted to say let's forgive but not forget, let's make sure that she will pay her bad actions by helping people because maybe she will bring more good than the bad that she has done (if she truly did it of course!).

To sum up my thoughts I would say: Let's use cautiously the past in the present to build the future.


message 3: by Sascha (new)

Sascha | 391 comments First questions first:

* What are the "hard facts"? What do we know about what happened and are there any legal proceedings against the woman and what are they about?

* Where is this story from and which media report about this issue? No source is cited here. And what are serious, investigative newspapers writing - or is it just yellow press?

I would also like to know what is this thing with the photo copyright - I don't understand what this detail is about? I also have no clue what all of this has to do with Mr Weinstein?

There is simply not enough information here to build me an opinion. But on what should I build my opinion at all? Taking into account the story 1:1 as it is told here by Agnes - I think her questions are nothing more than the wrong questions!

If we look at this picture, there is a woman assaulting a teenager. But except for sexists and misogynists - why should anyone else take this as an argument to make #metoo less valid or justified and ask strange questions like "what happens with #metoo now" or "do people stop believing in #metoo"?

Did anyone say that women don't harass or hurt people? I don't think so. #metoo is just showing the world that harassment and violence against women for no other reason that they are women is a thing in our society. And that it more than once is connected with men having privileges and power in a society with sexist and misogynist patterns and men exercizing their power, often through violence, to oppress women. Even the statistcs show that violence is not only done to women but also to men - but in most cases the perpretrators are men. And all of this is a context that played a role when #metoo happened.

So you could say, if there is one of the rare occasions where a woman hurts a man like in this case - then this is no reason to invalidate or question #metoo and speak against the movement. I would say, it is even one more reason *pro* #metoo and it makes it even more urgent to fight against the causes of #metoo, one of it being toxic masculinity.


message 4: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Do this really happened?
We do have to treat this as we would any other such accusations.

What cause that? Trauma?
God knows, and perhaps Asia.

What happens now with MeToo?
Do people stop believe in that movement?

There will certainly be those that see this as their chance to call all who came forward in the course of #metoo in question.

What does the movement do with victims who may also be victimizers?
The movement itself does nothing with either victims or perpetrators, it is solely a platform for people to share their story.


message 5: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
#MeToo is working.

The point behind #MeToo, as Gerd says, is a platform for people to share their stories of how power (perceived, physical, etc) can remove consent.

MeToo was never a female only movement as Anthony Rapp showed. MeToo is a movement to share the voice of the voiceless; to share the voice of the victim.


Agnes Szalkowska | 386 comments That what we know . Apparently someone send that to New York Times.

According to legal documents quoted by The New York Times which lay out Mr Bennett’s account, a family member drove him to the hotel room but was asked to leave by Ms Argento.
When they were alone she gave him alcohol, kissed him and pushed him onto the bed before performing oral sex, the documents reportedly claim, before climbing onto him and having intercourse.
The legal documents are said to claim that other photographs were also taken, after a request from Ms Argento, showing the pair in bed.


Agnes Szalkowska | 386 comments Ant this is Statment From Asia Argento

" I strongly deny and oppose the contents of the New York Times article date 20 August 2018, as circulated also in national and international news.

I am deeply shocked and hurt by having read news that is absolutely false. I have never had any sexual relationship with Bennett.

I was linked to him during several years by friendship only, which ended when, subsequent to my exposure in the Weinstain case, Bennett - who was then undergoing severe economic problems and who had previously undertaken legal actions against his own family requesting millions in damages unexpectedly made an exorbitant request of money from me. Bennett knew my boyfriend Anthony Bourdain, was a men of great perceived wealth and had his own reputation as a beloved public figure to protect. Anthony insisted the matter be handled privately and this was also what Bennett wanted. Anthony was afraid of the possible negative publicity that such person, whom he considered dangerous, could have brought upon us. We decided to deal compassionately with Bennett's demands for help and give it to him. Anthony personally undertook to help Bennett economically, upon the condition that we would no longer suffer any further intrusions in our life.

This is, therefore, the umpteenth development of a sequence of events that brings me great sadness and that constitutes a long - standing persecution. I have therefore no other choice but to oppose such false allegations and will assume in the short term all necessary initiatives for my protection before all competent venues.

Asia Argento "

for me that looks little strange .


message 8: by Robin (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments When it comes to good causes, a minority often tries to distort it from its original goal. It might be true but as always in this case it is important to separate the fake from the real.


message 9: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 22, 2018 05:39AM) (new)

Agnes Szalkowska wrote: "Ant this is Statment From Asia Argento

" I strongly deny and oppose the contents of the New York Times article date 20 August 2018, as circulated also in national and international news.

I am dee..."


If this man is an oppotunist/manipulator then it is not strange at all. For now there are not real evidence, only words but surprisingly this case shows up after the death of Bourdain who seemed to be the only other person who knew about the issue between Bennette and Argento.

Too many information are missing and I am quite surprise (well figure of style since I am not surprised at all) that an article pointing out this case was written with no information at all. It is not like the journalists have witnessed anything... Or got solid facts to build on... But it sells well and catches attention I suppose.

Therefore no opinion about it until more information.


message 10: by Sascha (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Thank you, Agnes, for sharing more information.

Still I don't think I understand every detail here. So when I get it right, the accusations are based on what Bennett says in legal documents. But what kind of legal documents? Does it mean he reported it to the police and "legal documents" means the papers which the police has documented in the files? Or which other "legal documents" are meant here?

And do I get the connection with Weinstein correct? Asia Argento accused Weinstein of abuse, is that right?

I'm not sure what to think about the statement by Asia Argento. She says it's not true. But it's not possible for me to check her claims. It could also be some kind of derailing. At least that's what some men accused of sexist abuse do. But I can not build me an opinion if this is the case here, too. I think the story which Argento tells about Bennett demanding money from her sounds a bit confusing.


message 11: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) It's very hard to figure out what's going on with this, but it's possible. It's hard for male victims to come forward. Often men feel like cultural pressures say it should be a good thing when a woman approaches them for sex and they don't even see it as rape, even if they are under age.

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/c...

It can be confusing and traumatic for people who haven't given consent to sexual acts.


message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

Susan wrote: "It's very hard to figure out what's going on with this, but it's possible. It's hard for male victims to come forward. Often men feel like cultural pressures say it should be a good thing when a wo..."

Ok, the photography is a bit explicit and it makes the version of Asia Argento hard to believe. I am still wondering if there is something fishy going on. I mean why someone who had sex with another person under age of consent would then voice and actively take part in a movement such as MeToo, it does not really make sense to me.


message 14: by Robert (new)

Robert Smart | 359 comments I guess this just goes to solidify the fact that sexual harassment, sexual abuse, rape etc... can be committed on anyone regardless of gender and so on.

I feel this may affect the #MeToo movement depending on how they handle their association with Ms. Argento if in fact the story turns out to be true. If it did turn out to be valid, I think it could be used by opponents to create some type of double standard that could be used to discredit the movement in an attempt to return things to the former status quo.
It is a wait and see game at this point. Impossible to really form any definite opinions either way.


message 15: by Sascha (last edited Aug 23, 2018 12:13AM) (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Here is an interesting comment by Mithu Sanyal in the german news magazine „Spiegel“ on this case. In the case of Asia Argento many questions still remain unanswered and media and institutions act without even asking for agreement by the ones affected.

Sanyal is saying reality is more complex than the Hollywood version of #metoo claims. At the same time, the case of Argento is of course no legitimate argument against #metoo or making it less valid.

The author is asking how our society treats perpetrators of sexualised violence, be it men or women. Sanyal is calling not to de-humanize and marginalize perpetrators but to promote an approach of justice and prevention. Problem is public voices, and here Sanyal also critisizes Hollywood #metoo, often just call for social exclusion of perpetrators and thinking that is the only way. She says that marginalizing perpetrators of sexualized violence leads to these men only becoming even more misogynist and hateful antifeminists. But it would be better if they had the option to acknowledge what they did wrong and learn from their mistakes and apologize to their victims in an appropriate way.

Here you can read the comment in full:
Asia Argento und #MeToo: Wie mit mutmaßlichen Täterinnen umgehen?
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellsc...


message 16: by Sascha (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Robert wrote: "I feel this may affect the #MeToo movement depending on how they handle their association with Ms. Argento if in fact the story turns out to be true."

Don't think so as Asia Argento is one of many voices. She is no "speaker for the movement" as #metoo includes many different voices. She is one of them, maybe one of the louder or more prominent ones but anyway just *one* of many voices.

And to discuss the issue on that level would also mean to personalize a social problem. I think it's already enough with such personalizing in the media and debates. It's the same as usual: The media claim the problem is called "Weinstein" - when they should actually stick to the facts and call the problem what it is: sexualized harassment and violence.

And though Mr Weinstein's behaviour is one part of the problem it doesn't mean it's just a "Weinstein problem" as some seem to suggest. It's a problem of our society affecting many women and some men as victims and many men and, as it seems, also some women as perpetrators.


message 17: by James (new)

James Corprew Asia may not be the sole voice of the #MeToo movement but the movement being quiet on this issue because its a man making the claims is troubling and goes to what Robert was talking about. The silence of #MeToo right now is deafening.


message 18: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
James wrote: "Asia may not be the sole voice of the #MeToo movement but the movement being quiet on this issue because its a man making the claims is troubling and goes to what Robert was talking about. The sile..."

With all respect, people within MeToo haven't been silent.

"https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/al..."
"In my view, it just means that the #MeToo movement is still strong and swelling, the fact that people are still coming forward, and still holding people accountable for their actions, whether that be a male predator or a female predator," the actress [Alyssa Milano] and activist told "Good Morning America."

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...
"As Tarana Burke, founder of the #MeToo movement so eloquently put it on Twitter, “It will continue to be jarring when we hear the names of some of our faves connected to sexual violence unless we shift from talking about individuals and begin to talk about power. Sexual violence is about power and privilege. That doesn’t change if the perpetrator is your favorite actress, activist or professor of any gender.”


message 19: by Pam (last edited Aug 23, 2018 02:09PM) (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
This is what I think Sascha was pointing out Problem is public voices, and here Sanyal also critisizes Hollywood #metoo, often just call for social exclusion of perpetrators and thinking that is the only way. She says that marginalizing perpetrators of sexualized violence leads to these men only becoming even more misogynist and hateful antifeminists. But it would be better if they had the option to acknowledge what they did wrong and learn from their mistakes and apologize to their victims in an appropriate way.

We are being deafened by the Media and the gossip rags all GASPING as if SHOCKER they are just now realizing that women can be abusers, too.

So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?

Personally, I am a big believer in making sure we learn from our mistakes. In child psychology, smacking a kid and putting them into a corner isn't going to get them to stop doing the bad behavior. They have to learn why they did wrong and what they could have done instead.

But as a victim, I want abusers to hurt more than just being slapped on the wrists and walking away from the case with just a stern lecture.

Thoughts?


message 20: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 23, 2018 03:03PM) (new)

Pam, could you explain your last sentence please? Maybe it is quite clear and possibly my brain is just exhausted :)

But as a victim, I want abusers to hurt more than just being slapped on the wrists and walking away from the case with just a stern lecture.

I guess the "abusers to hurt more" is the part I do not understand.


message 21: by James (new)

James Corprew Pam wrote: "With all respect, people within MeToo haven't been silent. ."

Kudos to Milano and Burke for speaking out although they are but a couple of people. I would like to see this trend more because it needs to be taken more seriously than it is when it comes to female on male violence.


message 22: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
Florian wrote: "Pam, could you explain your last sentence please? Maybe it is quite clear and possibly my brain is just exhausted :)

But as a victim, I want abusers to hurt more than just being slapped on the wri..."



No problem, Florian. I meant, I want those who abuse to receive a larger punishment than just a slap on the wrist.


message 23: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
James wrote: "Pam wrote: "With all respect, people within MeToo haven't been silent. ."

Kudos to Milano and Burke for speaking out although they are but a couple of people. I would like to see this trend more b..."


I agree


message 24: by Sascha (last edited Aug 23, 2018 06:48PM) (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Pam wrote: "So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?
Personally, I am a big believer in making sure we learn from our mistakes. ...
But as a victim, I want abusers to hurt more than just being slapped on the wrists and walking away from the case with just a stern lecture. "


Yes, I think both is important: perpetrators should learn from mistakes and change their behaviour, that means: stop harassing and hurting women. At the same time, being taken responsible for what they did is important for victim's healing and justice. Victims of violence must see that society acknowledges what was done to them and stands on their side supporting women's rights. Abusers getting away with harassment and violence happens much too often and it only makes the suffering of victims worse.

I'm not sure what it could mean in practise but I think there needs to be a balance between ways of encouraging abusers to learn from their mistakes and change their behaviour and some kind of (legal) sanctions towards them making it clear that abusive behaviour has no place in our society. I think it also depends on what a victim of abuse desires but maybe some form of communication and dialogue could help where the perpetrator tries to "make good" for what he has done. I know that you can't actually "make good" for having been abusive but on the other side, sometimes it could help with the victim's healing process if the perpetrator shows regret and tries to help now.

Moreover, I think in general you have made an important point, Pam: it's a question of power. As long as women are oppressed by patriarchy and our social relations are poisoned by sexism, misogyny and toxic masculinity, there will be harassment and violence. We need to change our society in an emancipatory way to finally make gender justice and equal rights real. So feminism is also the basis for a society where no woman is harassed and hurt anymore.


message 25: by [deleted user] (last edited Aug 24, 2018 05:36AM) (new)

So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?

Do you agree that people abuse because they get benefits (Edit: or because they think they will, example: revenge) from those actions? So what if one shows that the benefits are greater if you do not abuse? Do you think it could "reform" or trigger a change in abusers? Same what if one shows that by acknowledging your mistakes and doing some kind of work to help people (not only the one he/she hurt) the benefits will be higher?

Easy to say difficult to do... I know...😞
Here I am not talking about laws because laws in those cases are used to discourage abusers (but the more powerful the lesd discouraged I assume) because of the punishment not to change them.

Sorry my thoughts are questions


message 26: by Agnes Szalkowska (new)

Agnes Szalkowska | 386 comments And this is statement from Mr. Bennett :

" Many brave women and men have spoken out about their own experiences during the #metoo movement, and I appreciate the bravery that it took for each and every one of them to take such a stand. I did not initially speak out about my story because I choose to handle it in private with the person who wronged me. My trauma resurfaced as she came out as a victim herself. I have not made a public statement in the past days and hours because I was ashamed and afraid to be part of the public narrative. I was underage when the event took place, and I tried to seek justice in a way that made sense to me at the time because I was not ready to deal with the ramifications of my story becoming public. At the time I believed there was still a stigma to being in the situation as a male in our society. I didn't think that people would understand the event that took place from the eyes of a teenage boy. I have had to overcome many adversities in my life, and this is another that I will deal with , in time. O would like to move past this event in my life, and today choose to move forward, no longer in silence.

Jimmy Bennett "


message 27: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Pam wrote: "With all respect, people within MeToo haven't been silent."

Seen Burke's message on twitter, she received some flak her "de-personalize, look at the grander picture" message.

One can't shake the feeling that the very same people that vocally protested #metoo as a witch hunt had wanted to see the witch hunt turned on Argento now, instead of getting their own "react more level headed" message thrown back at them. :D


message 28: by Susan (last edited Aug 24, 2018 12:38PM) (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) It's very hard to know what's happening here.

One of the problems with #MeToo is that you don't need proof to accuse someone and hurt them. That doesn't mean their accusations are not true.

It is not unusual to be a victim and a perpetrator. Sadly, many victims of abuse perpetuate the abuse to the next generation.


message 29: by Pam (last edited Aug 24, 2018 02:37PM) (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
Susan wrote: "It is not unusual to be a victim and a perpetrator. Sadly, many victims of abuse perpetuate the abuse to the next generation. ."

Gosh I really, honestly, dislike this common idea. This, to me, sounds like another way to blame the victim.

We throw out general terms like "many", without understanding the the actual statistics or the general application to which this idiom was first used. What is many? Is it 5% of the population or 50% or 75%?

Nor do we know if it's more likely to be in different kinds of victims over others. If you were diddled as a child are you more likely to be a pedophile than if you those who were raped as an adult who may become a rapist themselves? If you have PTSD are you likely to go on a shooting spree more than if you only were held at gun point? Does duration matter? If a spouse is being beaten by their partner for years does that make them more or less likely to beat their next partner?

What the data does show us; is that abusers are more likely to abuse again. If you hurt someone once you are more than likely not afraid or worried about consequences that you do it again.


message 30: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) Yes, the topic is very disturbing. Ideally, the more we understand about it, the more we can prevent it. It isn't about blaming victims. It's about trying to understand and help them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...


message 31: by [deleted user] (new)

Susan wrote: "Yes, the topic is very disturbing. Ideally, the more we understand about it, the more we can prevent it. It isn't about blaming victims. It's about trying to understand and help them.
https://www.n..."


Publications... Sounds like I was not in weekend 😁
Also, the more we understand the more it is scaring (in my opinion of course).


message 32: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) It is scary. It's a very serious problem. But there's a lot that can be done about it too.


message 33: by Julie (new)

Julie (julaine) | 9 comments Florian wrote: " So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?

Do you agree that people abuse because they get benefits (Edit: or be..."


I'm a child sexual abuse survivor. I did not participate in the #metoo movement. I could not understand how it would help, me or others. What I work to make myself believe is that abusers are not acting from themselves. My worldview is that we all are intrinsically good, the goodness is covered in layers, some few, some many. But it's work to see it that way, practice, some days I understand it better than others.

I also believe that we don't 'fix' others. Your post reminded me of the oft-quoted Lilla Watson "If you've come to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound to mine, then let's begin our work." This rings more true for me. I hope in some deep recesses of his heart, my abuser moved more closely to his liberation.

An oblique answer to your post, but it's what came to mind :)


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

Julie wrote: "Florian wrote: " So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?

Do you agree that people abuse because they get benef..."


Oblique or not such answer is always good for the thinking then thank you. I agree with you we cannot "fix" the other, I guess my thoughts were not transcripted clearly sorry 😞

I am not that sure about your point "everyone is intrinsically good", but to be honest I would like you to be right and me to be wrong 😉
I am thinking that some people act for their own benefits no matter the consequences, they do not care if they hurt someone else as long as they are not affected themselves. However, I am a strong believer in changes, I think everything can change. Sometime you need a bit of catalyst to make a huge difference!

I was meaning: if one shows a better way to someone then the person may walk through this path and maybe find "liberation", "healing", that is what I meant by something more beneficial. Right now, I think the point is no matter the energy spent by someone external it will not change the self of the other. To change someone it needs to come from herself/himself. In other words, we can only change ourselves (we czn ask for help or for guidznce but the work needs to be done by ourselves), this is what I believe in.
Is this point clearer?


message 35: by Julie (new)

Julie (julaine) | 9 comments Florian wrote: "Julie wrote: "Florian wrote: " So how as consumers and believers of #MeToo are we move past angry mob penalization and into working to reform these people?

Do you agree that people abuse because ..."


:). Yes, maybe I didn't read it clearly. And yes, it doesn't matter how much energy is expended by someone, it may or may not be a catalyst for another.

And yes, I agree that most people most often act for their own benefit. <3


message 36: by James (new)

James Corprew https://hotair.com/archives/2018/08/2...

Looks like some condemning texts have come out showing some credibility issues with Asia. Massive kudos to Rose McGowan with sticking to her principles here despite being friends with Argento.


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