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The Changeling
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Group Reads Discussions 2018 > "The Changeling" - Full Discussion *Spoilers*

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message 1: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
So, what did you think? What of it was real? What of it was Apollo cracking?

What do you think their "real happy ending" will be like? Why did LaValle tell us this story?


Anthony (albinokid) | 1471 comments I’m so looking forward to hearing from other folks who’ve read it. I absolutely adored the first half of the book. The tone, prose, the rich and human characterizations just leapt off the page for me. And then that shocking, terrible event with the boiling water was so powerfully and effectively and horrifyingly well done.

And then as the plot continued to unfold, I found myself more and more frustrated...

I’m still not sure why Apollo was needed to be able to find the hidden island, nor why all of those women were on that island with their other children; or rather, how were those women all able to find one another and be convinced of the troll and the changelings...

Something about the latter third of the book just never quite coalesced for me in terms of emotional beats between Apollo and his wife.

And yet, I found myself fascinated and compelled to reach the end of this tale, as frustrated by it as I felt.

I do think that LaValle is ambitious and a very strong writer, and I admire his boldness and imagination. I just would love for everything to have hung together a bit more tightly.

Again, I look forward to hearing more folks’ responses to this dark, weird, often funny, disturbing, frustrating novel.


Gabi | 3405 comments I'm glad, you wrote this, Anthony, so I don't have to dig around for the appropriate English words for my feeling.

I concur: I was so deeply dragged into the first part of the book. The horror was so subtle, raised my hackles. I couldn't lay the book aside, I wanted to know what story would unfold with the anonymously sent photos.

And since everything went so "calm" the brutal scene fell like a hammer. (for me double, since I'm claustrophobic and the imagination of being chained with the neck was so realistic, that I felt the choking myself).

The slow unfolding of Apollo's memories of his father's visits was another plotpoint that I was eager to follow … and - in case I didn't miss some vital point here - I was kind of disappointed with the solution, somehow I was waiting for a connection to the mystery involving Apollo's child.

Where the plot left me (or I left the plot?) was the legend with the troll. There were so many twists and surprises in the beginning, that this solution felt completely "flat" to me. It just went straight into some ordinary horror scenario. In itself perhaps okay, but not with this masterful start-up for the novel. I felt very disappointed, I was waiting for "something more", something wickedly twisted.

So the end left me with a feeling of "that's it?"
And although I'm very sensible when it comes to children's death, in this case the partly happy ending also struck me as wrong.


message 4: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
I think I'm in agreement with the both of you.

I loved the beginning, the slow modern-fairy tale feel, the imagery of well known stories to set the scene, mixed with the realism of a single mother raising an oddly introspective boy who'd been traumatized and wrote it off as a dream.

(Where did the improbabilia come from if Lillian had killed Brian West when Brian tried to kill Apollo?)

Then things got murkier when he met his wife. I was willing to go with it to see how it all tied in, but that was the first wobble. And then I didn't really feel the descent into estrangement and depression that we're led to believe were pretty obvious between the two parents, so the removal of the changeling was really sudden and violent for me.

And then the shotgun thing felt so out of character, even for a grieving man. Apollo just didn't seem the type. And then William showed up which is when things really started falling apart for me.

It seemed pretty clear that the "what if" that sparked the story is "what if internet trolls were really trolls?" which is a cute, kind of unoriginal thought but it could have worked fine, I think. But it didn't gel with the rest of the thoughts on family, childhood trauma, parenthood and the rest. It was very convenient to have some of the realizations or plot points happen, rather than the slow unraveling I'd come to expect from the beginning.

I also got confused by the use of different mythologies. Changelings are pretty common in tales, but jotunn and glamer are two different traditions. Was LaValle suggesting that these are different names for the same activities? Or that all the mythologies are real?

I really wanted to have the mounting horror and the slow collapse of the family to continue, but instead got a pseudo-happy "happy ending" that was very much LaValle purposefully doing what he hated to us. I am left asking why? What was the point of this story? That we never escape our trauma? That there is more out there than we understand and ever protect our children from?

I feel like it should be apparent by the ending what sort of fairy tale this was, like with Rapunzel, but I'm flailing a bit.


Gabi | 3405 comments Allison wrote: "It seemed pretty clear that the "what if" that sparked the story is "what if internet trolls were really trolls?" which is a cute, kind of unoriginal thought but it could have worked fine, I think. "

Oh, good that you point that out, Allison. I was too crossed by the unfolding of the story to realise that comparison.


message 6: by Anna, Circadian heretic (last edited Aug 07, 2018 08:09AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Anna (vegfic) | 9629 comments Mod
Allison wrote: "what if internet trolls were really trolls"

I would have been okay with it if it would have ended with that, but the Norwegian troll thing drove it off the cliff for me.

I was also expecting something new and fresh about changelings, but it ended exactly like all the old fairy tales.

The start of the book made me think I was reading something different and clever, but it turned out to be just another troll tale. I strongly dislike the classic troll stories like in East of the Sun and West of the Moon: Old Tales from the North, they're all the same story over and over again, and the troll is always stupid and the people fool them with something idiotic. I wanted a new twist!


Melanie | 925 comments I am the opposite. The depressing realism of the opening is just turning me off. It reminds me of Revival Stephen King where the fantasy comes just way too late into the novel. I will persevere. Hoping it will be worthwhile.


Chris | 1046 comments Amazing how I am in agreement with so many previous comments. I thought that the book started strong. The connections to real life horror are powerful. People sometimes really do kill their spouses and children, and we're not good at predicting who or why. Then the real-life horror gets walked back by the fairy tale elements.

I had some problems with moral choices made by Apollo and Emma. Killing people is extreme, and a reader needs some justification in order to remain sympathetic. When Apollo killed the old man Jorgen, it seemed gratuitous. I'm sure that there is some complicated set of implicit rules of when good characters can do questionable/bad actions and still remain sympathetic. It just seemed to me that the context justified extreme violence against the troll, but much less so against human antagonists. In addition, in a contemporary society, you have to expect that the bodies or some trace will be found, and there will be an FBI hunt with dogs, helicopters, forensic labs, etc. Hardly something that an African-American couple could ignore as they return to life in New York.

For one of you GR librarians, you might add that The Changeling won the Locus Award for Best Horror Novel.


message 9: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (last edited Aug 09, 2018 10:30AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
Chris, you kind of touch on my question about their "happy ending."

We get a sort of author rant about that phrase and then he ends it there, so I think we can assume LaValle meant for us to have doubts.

They are a Black couple who made the news twice, in New York. Apollo only has one close friend, so they know his accomplice. He rented a car with his bank account. He definitely got himself, his wife and at least his best friend incarcerated for cemetery desecration and possibly they'd all go down for murder 2, assault, battery, breaking and entering, burglary, child endangerment, murder of a child...

Seriously, this book is like Criminal Law 101.

He's gonna lose his kid all over again.

And, on top of that, his wife took a hammer to his face! Why?? And why does he forgive her for that even upon realizing there really is magic happening?

I honestly didn't feel that I got the full picture on the wife's descent into estrangement from her family until she went to buy the chain. And even if you hate the person you used to love, it's a very intimate crime, invading their home, tying them to burn and then bashing their face in. That's not just a shove or a punch or a heat of the moment pop of a gun. That's meant to hurt and savage.

How are they possibly reconciled?


message 10: by Anna, Circadian heretic (new) - rated it 3 stars

Anna (vegfic) | 9629 comments Mod
Staring at my laptop screen earlier this morning I remembered that part in the book where William (or was it his father?) said that people should cover the cameras on their devices with a piece of tape. You know what's the first thing I do when I buy a new device? Apply the screen guard. But the second thing is to stick a blackout dot on the camera. I used to use tape, but then I found there are stickers actually made for this purpose. Well they're made to block out blinky lights on devices, but close enough.

Am I the only crazy person who does this? It's not that I'm afraid of trolls (or trolls), I just don't want a camera that's constantly connected to the internet pointed at me all day.


message 11: by Gabi (new) - rated it 3 stars

Gabi | 3405 comments :D You're not the only one, Anna. I taped all my cameras - and not only since I read this book.


Victoria Lestingi (vlestin) | 41 comments My take on this book was purely on the analogy it represents. Having suffered from post natal depression, and being out and cure now, this troll for me, was depression and the paths one goes through to recover and found your way back to yourself and your loved ones. Yes, I know it sounds like a pink vision, but the story in itself does not hold a deep analysis, other than how beautifully written it is.


message 13: by Hank (new) - rated it 3 stars

Hank (hankenstein) | 1128 comments I am going with the opposite from most, the first part of the story was pretty dull for me and didn't get going until the bad stuff started.

Part of my problem was that I used the audiobook version and I think it is better actually reading it. I had two main personal problems with audio. Authors reading their own books never work for me, to narratory, not enough inflection, this was no exception. The other reason is that I think this book really was a mood book where you have to immerse yourself in the atmosphere and kind of creep yourself out. I unfortunately listen to books while doing other things and frequently found myself wandering away from the story.

Once it got going, I liked it better but had the same issues as most others, kind of all over the place without much coherently tying all of the islands, forests, neighborhoods, mythologies, monsters and weirdnesses together.

@Anna, my tinfoil hat has been in place for quite some time. Blackout dots are my friends.


message 14: by Anna, Circadian heretic (new) - rated it 3 stars

Anna (vegfic) | 9629 comments Mod
Thanks Gabi and Hank, it's nice to know I'm not competely nuts!

I liked the audiobook, and I tend to like it when they're narrated by the author. Unless of course the author's voice or narration style is horrible. I think it really added to the calm but eery atmosphere at the start.


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Finished the book yesterday. I should join bandwagon of people who like the first time and were disappointed by the second. At first it was like some magic realism up to a point that I assumed that that screenshots were only in the imagination of the mother, who had ‘baby blues’.
I disliked how end were tied, like Patrice’s only app was overpowering LED screen [btw, won’t work irl – you can see that LED lights working from the grid ie no need to care for battery, are not ‘sun bright’] and that’s exactly what we needed.
I pitied the murder of endangered magical species, it was maybe the last troll and it wasn’t really evil, just inept in some ways.
I don’t understand why children (both Apollo and Brian) had to be boiled to die? Why not just smoother them?


message 16: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
I was curious about Brian West trying to burn/drown Apollo, too. Was that part of the same mythos? Or just a deranged dad thing?


message 17: by Anna, Circadian heretic (new) - rated it 3 stars

Anna (vegfic) | 9629 comments Mod
I actually speculated at one point in the book that Apollo was a changeling. I thought maybe there would be a clever twist, but unfortunately not.


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Anna wrote: "I actually speculated at one point in the book that Apollo was a changeling. I thought maybe there would be a clever twist, but unfortunately not."

I hoped he was an avatar of the Greek god


message 19: by Gabi (new) - rated it 3 stars

Gabi | 3405 comments @Anna: That was exactly what I was hoping for! And I was so disappointed when there was no connection (or rather thought I did miss the connection)


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments I am exactly opposite as most of you and concur with Hank. The first part of the book was agonizingly slow for me. If I were not reading the book for this group, I probably would have given up.

I found some merit in the book once the action started, but still found it to be a jumbled mess. As some of you have pointed out, there are some elements that just don't add up. The island still doesn't seem to fit the rest of the story to me.

What I did like was the combination of the classic mythology and modern concepts, even if it was less than original. The idea that perhaps there is a dark fantasy explanation for postpartum depression also intrigued me. The meat of the story was overall decent for me, even with the issues.

I had no issue with the violence. I never do. Guess I am just blood thirsty. To me, it felt fitting that Apollo would kill Jorgen given all he'd been through and the old man's career of infanticide.

Let's face it, Apollo had moved way beyond the point of no return, Emma, too. There is no HEA for this family, but rather just survival.


Ellen | 521 comments "What lengths will people stretch to believe they're good?"-that applies to every character in the book.

I also thought it started out very strong then just dragged along and was like huh? It took them so long to dig up that coffin I wanted to pitch in and help.
I am looking for tape to put over my lap top camera and have resolved not to post picture of the grandkids (sure I won't stick to that long).


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Valerie wrote: "I had no issue with the violence. I never do. Guess I am just blood thirsty. To me, it felt fitting that Apollo would kill Jorgen given all he'd been through and the old man's career of infanticide."

Have you been also okay with Emma having a hammer ready and then hitting Apollo with it, potentially killing or disabling him? Assume you are her: He is chained, you are prepared in advance and I hope you love him... is the hammer the best you can manage?


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments I am ok with it. She was portrayed as a crazed mess. Maybe she thought it more humane to try to take him out, so he didn't suffer the loss that he could not accept? Maybe she was just angry that he didn't believe her and she was striking out? Who knows what the author was thinking at this point.

Does it tie into the end? Not at all. But, this is no more egregious than the any other sloppily jumbled plot points of the book.

Frankly, it felt like the author let the story meander where it would while writing. I think maybe he started to go in certain directions, but that is not where the story ended up. Or maybe it was an extremely clumsy attempt at throwing in red herrings.

My point is, this was a non-issue for me compared to other flaws.


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Valerie wrote: "I am ok with it. She was portrayed as a crazed mess. Maybe she thought it more humane to try to take him out, so he didn't suffer the loss that he could not accept? Maybe she was just angry that he didn't believe her and she was striking out? Who knows what the author was thinking at this point."

My point is that this violence was unnecessary and added supposedly for its shock value. Much more humane was to smother him, let him bleed to death, shot him with syringe with a deadly dose of heroin, etc... the options for less brutal ways are many. The same with a changeling - why boil him to death? If hasn't been motivited


message 25: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (last edited Aug 20, 2018 11:51AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
I think this is a point in the story that would have been better fleshed out. We hear of the witches only twice before we meet them, and we don't get any idea of what they were saying.

Like, how much more fairytale-esque would it have been if she had tried to tell him that she was sure this wasn't their son, and the true test would be just a little hot water. Which naturally freaked him out, for all sorts of reasons, and he made some sort of comment like "I can't believe I'm chained to a crazy person. Your voice is like hammers inside my head" or something like that.

And then the chains and hammers.


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments Allison, I totally agree. The story could have done with a lot more fleshing out, figuratively speaking. I did not find the level of violence shocking, but it could have had more coherent context for sure.


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments Oleksandr wrote: "My point is that this violence was unnecessary and added supposedly for its shock value. Much more humane was to smother him, let him bleed to death, shot him with syringe ..."

I just didn't find it all that shocking.


message 28: by Hank (new) - rated it 3 stars

Hank (hankenstein) | 1128 comments Beating a dead horse here but the violence, for me, was almost too abrupt. I was so much so fast, I don't think it registered they way it should have. Like if there were some small horrors priming the pump, I might have been more apprehensive. He was chained and I was thinking, nah she isn't going to get that grim and then she did and then it was over.


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Just a funny thought, don't take it too serious. From what I heard/read about why part of white people are afraid of blacks is the assumption of some feral nature (fictitious ofc). However, what we have in the book is black guys killing white guys, often in a messy way and getting away with it: Apollo's mom killed his dad, he kills the old Norwegian and joins his wife to kill Norwegian's son. Ultimate fear coming true :)


message 30: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (last edited Aug 23, 2018 08:58AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
Hmm...I don't mean to tone police, but the phrasing of this is...off. People are literally dying because of this assumption. Kids have been killed for the stereotype so it's...not particularly humorous.

I think it is an astute observation, and perhaps a more interesting inspection, that white fear/privilege is part of our DNA and can clearly be felt throughout the book. How the system/society treats white European descendants who steal kids (look at all the troll's viewers!) vs. those who save kids/women (the witches are ostracized), a black man whose "victims" weren't going to press charges who still went to jail for a bad decision, vs. someone who literally ruins lives; a mother forced to leave her child unattended who did what she had to do and live with the consequences while facing extreme prejudice and so on.


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments Just finished it and I. LOVED. it! But that’s no surprise as I have always loved folklore, mythical creatures and modernized fairytales. Growing up in Scandinavia we're used to grim, Nordic folktales that absolutely don't end well, so perhaps I wasn't so shocked at the content. In fact I found it familiar and it had a distinct Nordic feel to it. But I do also like reading horror, so... :)

I also listened to the author's own audio reading and it worked really well for me. He read it matter of factly without much inflection and the text also seems unsentimental and to the point, so I think it fit each other nicely.

I was very much reminded of The Ritual both in style and pace, and the appearance of a mythical creature by the end.


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments Oh and the post-it strip covering the camera on my laptop? I've been doing that for *years* XD


Oleksandr Zholud | 831 comments Pardon me, as I said before, I'm from the other culture and may blunder. I may delete the message if requested.
However, as Valentine Michael Smith famously said, “I had been told—that a ‘funny’ thing is a thing of a goodness. It isn’t. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing itself. I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing . . . against pain and sorrow and defeat.”


message 34: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
It is up to you if you'd like to delete. I understand you're not from the culture, and do want to foster an environment where we can discuss things. I encourage people to ask questions of each other, share thoughts, but let's remember that this is deadly serious. Slavery and the repercussions in the States is another topic that flirts with things like genocide. It's a grave concern here, with actual ramifications that cause irreparable harm, so please keep that in mind. It's not cutesy like our wars with the French or English, even. It's big time. I won't say there isn't humor somewhere. Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock and many others have careers built on examining the intersections of white America and Black America, but it's the sort of humor we tend to leave to experts :)


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments Allison and Olesksandr, one might argue that this entire book could be seen as a symbolic tale representing real life social injustice happening in the US today.

Could the troll represent the monster of white privilege? The white Norwegians have chose to embrace the monster and wield the power to subjugate the minority children systemic violence. Meanwhile, society fails to recognize and acknowledge the truth of what is happening. Instead, they label and blame Emma and Apollo. They try to justify and sweep things under the rug. It even sets them against one another by insidiously camouflaging the harm being done - Emma is just crazy. Finally, once the couple engages in violence to save their family, they are perceived to be the savages.

Maybe I am reading a lot more into this, given that my current read is The Hate U Give. But, now that my mind has gone down this path, I can't really shake it.


message 36: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
Yes, and the witches as allies fighting against the systemic oppression and being labeled "the same as" the oppressors fits neatly into that reading, too! Great allegorical interpretation.

(Also, THUG was wonderful, hope you're enjoying/sobbing over it)


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments Thinking of how the white, Norwegian family for generations has exploited immigrants and stolen babies I can definitely see Apollo and Emma’s struggle as an allegory against oppression. If anyone is violent in this story it’s the William and Jorgen (and all the silent complicits who pay to watch) and Apollo, his dad, and Emma’s violent rebellion is a direct result of that.

I also like how the literal troll juxtaposed the internet trolls and how not being careful who you let into your homes his your devices may have very dire consequences you can’t foresee. Perhaps Lavalle tried to draw too many parallels in one story but they are all speculation anyway. On the surface it’s a horror folklore story and works well as that without any deeper analysis ^^


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments Allison wrote: "(Also, THUG was wonderful, hope you're enjoying/sobbing over it) "

It is excellent. I have had to actually stop a few times to gather myself. I am listening to audio book and Bahni Turpin is doing a phenomenal job. She has been one of my favorite narrators for a long time.


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments Dawn wrote: "Thinking of how the white, Norwegian family for generations has exploited immigrants and stolen babies I can definitely see Apollo and Emma’s struggle as an allegory against oppression. If anyone i..."

YES!


message 40: by Bree (new) - added it

Bree Verity (breeverity) | 28 comments I took a long time to come back to this story after the death of the baby. Up until then, I was contentedly chugging along, not terribly invested, but not bored enough to stop.
Then when I read the end I was frustrated that it was so twee an ending - “And they all lived happily ever after.”
But then I started thinking. That was the whole purpose of the thing - to parody a fairy tale. To twist it. They won’t live happily ever after. There are too many questions that authorities will want to ask. The fact they are coloured people in a white world. The fact that their relationship must be irrepapreably damaged - she left him with his eye hanging out for god’s sake. Doubts will creep in, shadows and haunting and they simply won’t live happily ever after.
Did Apollo become a hero? No, he became a murderer, by his own admission. So did Emma. How is that going to impact on their lives from now on? Knowing your partner is capable of violence like that, would you ever relax in their company? And if they were helicopter parents before, how much worse would they be now? Brian, too, won’t live happily ever after.

As an aside, I do like to think of the writer, reading all our comments and going, “Huh. And here I thought I wrote a book about a troll...” :-)


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments I definitely read the “they lived happily every after” as an ironic comment, and I think it would have been fine ending on a wry note like that. It felt like the author took it back with the next part of the conversation. It wasn’t really necessary to have it picked apart, but oh well, still a really great horror/dark fairtytale story :)


message 42: by J.W. (new) - rated it 5 stars

J.W. | 219 comments Like many others, I loved the opening 150 pages or so. I fell in love with the family. I knew something horrible would happen, and when it did, I was devastated. As a dad, this hit me really hard. The slow unraveling of what actually happened kept me up late last night.

The solution to the problem seemed kind of out of left field to me. I enjoyed the discussion of Rapunzel about halfway through, but it didn’t seem like we got the payoff from that with the main plot.

I was okay with the ending. But yeah, the horror aspects really got to me.


message 43: by J.W. (new) - rated it 5 stars

J.W. | 219 comments I do see it something as an allegory of oppression/privilege, though. I wonder what the author would say about that interpretation of the book. Would be curious to talk it over with him. I think it's quite ingenious in that light.


message 44: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
I agree, JW, the horror was pretty spot on for me, too. I bet LaValle would have a lot of astute commentary on the oppression angle. His handling of race is something the reviews have commented on as a strength of his.


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments I can also see it’s a theme in his other books, so I’m sure at least some of it is intentional. He’s on Twitter, btw, so you could always ask him :)


message 46: by J.W. (new) - rated it 5 stars

J.W. | 219 comments Thanks! Great idea. I did so just now. I’ll post here if he responds.


Valerie (darthval) | 781 comments I would love to hear his comments on this subject.


Dawn F (psychedk) | 1219 comments Great!


message 49: by J.W. (new) - rated it 5 stars

J.W. | 219 comments Okay he did reply on Twitter.

Here were my two Tweets @ him
“@victorlavalle we read “The Changeling” this month in the Goodreads Sci-fi fantasy book club. Loved it. (SPOILERS for lurkers.) Several sensed theme of discussing white privilege/oppression of PoC through the use of white troll helper vs. the poc in book. Is this part of meaning?”
“Also thank you for the deep, heart rending, book. I so fell in love with the characters. As a dad, it hit me so hard.”


His replies:
“I’m grateful for the kind words and for the read! Please pass my thanks on to the whole group.

“I was definitely trying to contrast William/Jorgen vs. Apollo/Emma but I did work hard to show that Jorgen, at least, was operating from a sense of love for his child as true as...

“Apollo and Emma’s but the flaw of their side is that they couldn’t imagine the PoC loved their kids as Jorgen did. That failure of empathy made it easier to pray on the immigrant kids. A warped sense of love had evil effects. Much like life sometimes. That’s the idea anyway!”


message 50: by Allison, Fairy Mod-mother (new) - rated it 3 stars

Allison Hurd | 13034 comments Mod
How cool! Thanks for the sleuthing, JW!


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