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Discussions for 2018 > Canon vs. Legends

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message 1: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
Legends...forever.


message 2: by DiscoSpacePanther, Grandmaster of Intergalactic Funk (new)

DiscoSpacePanther | 52 comments Mod
Combination - I'm don't want to lose Rogue One, as it is a much better Death Star origin story than the Jedi Academy trilogy and the Death Star novel.


message 3: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
DiscoSpacePanther wrote: "Combination - I'm don't want to lose Rogue One, as it is a much better Death Star origin story than the Jedi Academy trilogy and the Death Star novel."

True there. I'm guessing your not a Solo fan. I for one, loved the movie.


message 4: by Luke (new)

Luke | 11 comments Legends overall, but I have enjoyed some of the new canon as the back story has been well thought out. I loved “Lost Stars” but was disappointed in Catalyst. I agree that the back story for the Death Star is far more compelling than Legends. However my love for the Expanded Universe and it’s grand themes and amazing story will always be strong. I also got into it by spending hours reading the Wookiepedia! I’m grateful I have so many EU novels still to enjoy officially. Sometimes I find it bittersweet that there will be no more Expanded Universe. The main issue is after the Last Jedi I don’t want to legitimise the canon as that film was so disappointing. Luke Skywalker will always be alive and super powerful in the Expanded Universe 😁 Enjoy!


message 5: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (last edited Jan 25, 2019 01:32PM) (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
Basically, I just don’t like canon novels. I like the movies (except The Last Jedi, a prequel-ly mess), TV shows and comics chucked out by Disneyfied Lucasfilm (I have not played the new games, and have no desire to.) The novels, the Expanded Universe’s biggest strongpoint, have been screwed over in favor of hardcore control that which communists exploit. That’s my opinion.

The EU’s put out some sucky stuff, though: Waru, the parallel universe blob version of Jim Bakker; Beldorian the snakelike Jedi Hutt; Luuke the extended vowel clone; and anything Kevin J. Anderson creates like Darksaber the MacGuffin weapon and Bevel Lemelisk the lazy Galen Erso. But the overwhelming good stuff flushes it into the Maw. Canon, however, is balanced. Only Catalyst in my opinion has reached the status of excellent. But that’s where it ends.

That’s, at least, my opinion.


message 6: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
Mostly I prefer Canon, but I do love me some Old Republic.

No mistakes that canon has made post return of the jedi is anywhere near the travesty that was Dark Empire, and I think the rebel alliance origins set up in canon are far superior to the whatever the kriff The Force Unleashed was trying to do.

It could also be that I didn't really grow up reading legends and only got into the books and comics when the EU was reset anyway.


message 7: by DiscoSpacePanther, Grandmaster of Intergalactic Funk (last edited Jan 28, 2019 03:37AM) (new)

DiscoSpacePanther | 52 comments Mod
Lance wrote: "No mistakes that canon has made post return of the jedi is anywhere near the travesty that was Dark Empire..."

Ugh! I'd forgotten about that. I think I tended to dismiss anything that appeared in Legends comics that I didn't like as "that's just comics nonsense" - and to a certain extent I do that with the canon stuff, now as well.

Michael Stackpole (if I remember correctly) did a nice retcon/diss in I, Jedi about the "Emperor Reborn", where Corran Horn basically says "that's totally unbelievable Bantha poodoo".

TBH, I find Snoke and the First Order to be preferable - a clone-in-spirit of the Emperor (Snoke) is less redundant that a straight-up unashamed Clone of ol' Sheev - and I am no fan of Snoke at all (I'm so glad that Rian unceremoniously dumped Snoke without weighing down the story of TLJ! To give too much weight to Snoke would have come far too close to Kevin J. Anderson -style fan-fickery)

Lance wrote: "... I think the rebel alliance origins set up in canon are far superior to the whatever the kriff The Force Unleashed was trying to do. ."

The concept behind The Force Unleashed I and II was an interesting idea let down by:

1. Atrocious writing
2. Poor characterisation
3. Needing to conform to a videogame plot - (Novels that simply describe gameplay tend towards the terrible. Novels that take the gameplay as a pointer, and then craft character-based narratives around that, such as Republic Commando [Legends] or Battlefront [Canon] I and even II are usually much better.)


message 8: by DiscoSpacePanther, Grandmaster of Intergalactic Funk (last edited Jan 28, 2019 03:45AM) (new)

DiscoSpacePanther | 52 comments Mod
Peter wrote: "True there. I'm guessing your not a Solo fan. I for one, loved the movie."

I enjoyed Solo enough to see it at the cinema twice, buy the Blu-Ray, the soundtrack CD and the novelisation in hardcover! ;)

I think I'd place it well above TFA (my personal least favourite), AotC and The Clone Wars theatrical movie.

Actually, I'm struggling to think of things I *didn't* like about the movie... Perhaps the fact that it attempted to explain too much backstory too quickly - I would have preferred if Lando still had the Falcon at the end, and the implied sequel would be about Han and Lando bickering over who gets possession.

Edited to add: I can safely say that I did enjoy it - the highlights being Lando, the streets of Corellia, and the cameo at the end.

I need to convince my wife to watch it again with me!


message 9: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
DiscoSpacePanther wrote: Ugh! I'd forgotten about that. I think I tended to dismiss anything that appeared in Legends comics that I didn't like as "that's just comics nonsense" - and to a certain extent I do that with the canon stuff, now as well

It's a part of Trek fandom that Shatner's ill-fated The Final Frontier that it is non-canon due to it's unexplained contradictions (Spock having a brother, something never mention until then; it taking fifteen minutes to get to the center of the galaxy, when it took the USS Voyager five TV seasons to return to Earth). I don't know how many of you are Trekkies, but being a non-hardcore Trekkie, I am familiar with this.

I don't accept The Crystal Star in any way, period. Luke being a jerk cause a star died? A parallel universe creature that feeds on "Anti-Force"? Vader having two apprentices, a fact never mentioned before and merely forgotten? Come on. This is "licensed fanfic" at it's worse. It sounds like one of those crossover fiction stories, but with Philip K. Dick.

Most of Star Wars' classic Marvel days (1977-1985?) is unaccepted by me due to continuity errors and just being plain downright moronic.

The new canon marriage of Leia and Han is unaccepted by me. I still accept the old adventure of The Courtship of Princess Leia.


message 10: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
DiscoSpacePanther wrote: "I enjoyed Solo enough to see it at the cinema twice, buy the Blu-Ray, the soundtrack CD and the novelisation in hardcover! ;)"

I have it on DVD. I asked for the Blu-Ray for my birthday, but I got the DVD instead. I'll get the Blu-Ray someday.

I have the Origs on steelbook, as well as Revenge of the Sith. I have normal Blu-Ray-DVD-Blu-Ray Special Features of Rogue One and The Force Awakens. I've considered getting the other preqs on Blu-Ray, but those and The Last Jedi aren't liked enough by me to want to get them; it'd just be a waste of money.


message 11: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
DiscoSpacePanther wrote: "Lance wrote: "No mistakes that canon has made post return of the jedi is anywhere near the travesty that was Dark Empire..."

Ugh! I'd forgotten about that. I think I tended to dismiss anything tha..."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was happy to see Snoke get killed off. I would have liked to learn at least a little bit about him (because they stress that Snoke turned Ben solo bad in 7, and snoke was responsible for Rey and Kylo's connection in 8) but not enough that he was worth keeping alive until episode 9.
Snoke was something IMO that hamstrung the sequel trilogy's story and worldbuilding. I love the idea of getting rid of snoke because it opens up episode 9 to go in so many different directions- had he survived we probably would have been stuck with a Return of the Jedi redux. Whatever other problems people may have with the Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, at least 9 now has the possibility of going in new directions.

Interesting to know that Stackpole tried to dis on the Dark Empire stuff in I, Jedi. Because from what I hear Zahn tries to retconn it as well in either Spector of the Past or Vision of the Future.

I'm ok with Starkiller being OP in Force Unleashed- it's a video game, and one of the major selling points of those games was to let you be God-Tier uber strong in the force. What ruins it for me is how hard they try to connect it with the Original Trilogy because it ruins the intimidation of Vader and Palpatine, but most importantly i HATED the origin of the rebel alliance they shoehorned in there, because it turns the story of the rebellion from something uplifting and a symbol of hope to a depressing tool in a villainous scheme.


message 12: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
Peter wrote: "DiscoSpacePanther wrote: Ugh! I'd forgotten about that. I think I tended to dismiss anything that appeared in Legends comics that I didn't like as "that's just comics nonsense" - and to a certain e..."

headcannon is certainly something to fall back on, and personally counting something and not counting something else is all fine and good.
I don't accept the "canon" versions of Revan and the Exile from the KoTOR games; in my headcannon, they are still the maleable blank slate avatars that were set up in the first and second KOTOR games.
Also, in my headcanon I like the idea that the old rebel with a white beard on Endor in Return of the Jedi was actually captain Rex.

But this discussion is about canon vs legends, so I think everything that happened in each continuity (unless it was officially retconned like the books/comics/microseries about the clone wars that came out before the 2008 show) should be assumed as part of their respective timeline.


message 13: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (last edited Jan 29, 2019 03:01PM) (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
Frankly, the writeovers of Legends stuff done in the films have earned my approval. Here are some:

A: The Force Awakens vs. The New Jedi Order--I am happy that the future isn't as dark and weird in the Seqs than in the horrid The New Jedi Order-Legacy of the Force-Fate of the Jedi-Crucible era. Even though the Jedi are gone once more, the Empire is (sorta) back, and the galactic government is abolished, I am happy that the entire galaxy is not faced with an invasion from another galaxy. I find the Seqs far more better. I actually am boycotting the post-Survivor's Quest era except Millennium Falcon (a biggie on my readlist).

B: Rogue One vs. Death Star, Darksaber, and Classic Battlefront II--The new story for the capture of the schematics of the Death Star seem way more interesting than the lazy Darksaber/Bevel Lemelisk storyline. The classic BFII storyline was good but convoluted (it is a videogame, y'know), but Rogue One crafted an A+ story.

C. Solo vs. The Han Solo Trilogy, The Han Solo Adventures and The Adventures of Lando Calrissian--Even though The Paradise Snare of The Han Solo Trilogy was fantastic, I was happy with Solo's Han origin. There isn't much else contradicted other than that, but the A.C. Crispin trilogy's death was worth the effort.

There are some overwrites I wasn't pleased with (specifically the massacre to The Thrawn Trilogy by Rebels and the Solo marriage thing I already mentioned), but I've been glad with most of the results.

Lance wrote: "I'm glad I'm not the only one who was happy to see Snoke get killed off"

Me and fellow member Vincent are happy with the decision. I want the focus solely on Kylo/Ben, and not the constant "is he Plagueis?" stuff. Ugh.

Lance wrote: "it could also be that I didn't really grow up reading legends and only got into the books and comics when the EU was reset anyway"

I first read Star Wars books in the year of the EU's bloody massacre, so I grew up with that (and I'm younger than you!)


message 14: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
Lance wrote: "one of the major selling points of those games was to let you be God-Tier uber strong in the force"

I remember the horrible part in TFUII when Starkiller disintegrates a garrison of stormtroopers Thanos-style. I mean REALLY.


message 15: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
I have to read the New Jedi order books and watch Episode 9 before I can decide which continuity did that time period better (because in terms of comparing the sequel trilogy to legends, New Jedi order is the closest analogue. Timelines line up pretty closely and they signified the start of a new era for star wars in their own ways).

Honestly my biggest problem with the sequel trilogy is the worldbuilding aspects, because I don't like how the galaxy was reset to what it was like in episode 4. I get that you can't just have the new republic persist because it's star wars, but at least keep the jedi around. Fans have been wanting to see more jedi on screen and I was dissapointed when I learned they were doing the "no more jedi and we have to rebuild the jedi again" thing. So far I really enjoy the sequel trilogy (The Last Jedi is my favorite of the new movies and my 3rd favorite star wars movie overall), but the worldbuilding has irked me since force awakens. I didn't mind the story of TFA repeating the same beats as the Original trilogy, but I wish they didn't reset the galaxy in terms of worldbuilding.
Maybe I will be proven wrong if I read the new jedi order novels and I'll agree with your sentiment, but for my knowledge of that storyline so far (basically surface level stuff in the essential guidebooks from the 2000s) at least they tried something different in the worldbuilding with the Yuuzhan Vong and having the jedi order around made it feel like something progressed.


message 16: by Pete, Last of the Mandalores (new)

Pete Hale (petehale) | 96 comments Mod
Lance wrote: "I have to read the New Jedi order books and watch Episode 9 before I can decide which continuity did that time period better (because in terms of comparing the sequel trilogy to legends, New Jedi o..."

Just read Vector Prime and loved it; I take back my comments.


message 17: by Thomas (new)

Thomas Markiewicz | 5 comments As a fan of both Legends and Canon. I think they both have their ups and downs.


message 18: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
Thomas wrote: "As a fan of both Legends and Canon. I think they both have their ups and downs."

I completely agree!


message 19: by Lance, Revan Reborn (new)

Lance Shadow (lanceshadow) | 27 comments Mod
Peter wrote: "Lance wrote: "I have to read the New Jedi order books and watch Episode 9 before I can decide which continuity did that time period better (because in terms of comparing the sequel trilogy to legen..."

Just the New Jedi order comment at least? Either way, I wonder how your opinion will be influenced by what happens later in the series. Keep me posted!


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