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Scripture Memorization > Who's sins did Jesus die for? Who benefits from His sacrifice?

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message 1: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
According to the Bible, what are the answers to these questions?

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


message 2: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Hmmm.


message 3: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Romans 9
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--


message 4: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle John 17
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.


message 5: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Ephesians 1
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,


message 6: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Ephesians 1
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,

18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,


message 7: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Romans 8
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

He does it all.


message 8: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle 2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


message 9: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Hmmm."


My response: You FORGOT verses 46 and 47!

Acts 13:46-47

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you , and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth .
________________

Look at that!!!!

* The Jews put salvation away from themselves...
* They judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life...
* The Gentiles were included for salvation unto the ends of the earth...

NO LIMITATIONS (according to the Bible)… just WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL upon the Name of the Lord!


message 10: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Romans 9
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

23 in order to make known the riches of his glory f..."


My response: On what does God say that He basis His mercy decisions on?

You have referenced the undeniable FACT that God chooses who He will and will not have mercy on... but you have NOT answered the question as to HOW He makes His CHOICES!

God DOES tell us on what He bases His decisions. Why do you REJECT and RE-DEFINE those clear Scriptures?

Just one chapter prior to Romans 9, God CLEARLY tells us...

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."


message 11: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments I can’t believe I’m saying this but I agree with Robert.
Christ’s death makes way for whosoever will call Him Lord. All sin is atoned for, but we are called to live in that truth. If we reject the full and free offer of grace, it’s on us.


message 12: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
God clearly tell us...

1 Peter 1:2 - " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

What does God foreknow? EVERYTHING!

But specific to this verse...
...He foreknows the "sanctification of the Spirit"
...He foreknows the "obedience"
...He foreknows the "sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus"

It is ABSOLUTE FOLLY to preach a weak God Who does NOT KNOW EVERYTHING!


message 13: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Steve wrote: "I can’t believe I’m saying this but I agree with Robert.
Christ’s death makes way for whosoever will call Him Lord. All sin is atoned for, but we are called to live in that truth. If we reject the..."


My response: Not to worry Steve... you are actually agreeing with the clear Word of God... NOT ME!


message 14: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments Fair enough... :)


message 15: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "John 17
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."


My response: And why would God give Jesus those whom He FOREKNEW would REJECT Jesus?
__________________

John 6:64-65

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


message 16: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Ephesians 1
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Chris..."


My response: Again you debate that which I agree with. God CHOSE us... no argument from me.

But you have NOT addressed the conditions under which He SAYS that He made His elections. Why do you AVOID the FACT that God tells us HOW He CHOSE us?


message 17: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Romans 8
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

He does it all."


My response: Ooops you FORGOT verse 29...

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Interesting how you omit verse 29 regularly.


message 18: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "2 Timothy 1
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"


My response: Yet another NON-argument. I totally agree that our works cannot and do not save us.

You forgot verse 10...

2 Tim1:10 - "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel :"

Life and immortality are available THROUGH THE GOSPEL... it does NOT say through God's election... but through the Gospel.

God's election is based on His foreknowledge of EVERYTHING... including who will respond to the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

Why do you think the Gospel is TOO WEAK to SAVE ANYONE? Why do you think Christ's sacrifice is TOO IMPOTENT to SAVE any person that the message is preached to?
Why do you think God does NOT KNOW EVERYTHING?


message 19: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Same old same old.


message 20: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Is this really what you wanted to talk about? Why?


message 21: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Same old same old."

My response: YEP! I will NEVER sway from the FULL counsel of God's Word... while you continue to PROOF TEXT.


message 22: by Robert (last edited Jul 27, 2018 08:16AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Is this really what you wanted to talk about? Why?"

My response: So that the TRUTH can be shared with those who WANT TRUTH. (eisegetes only want to validate their preconceived notions... not truth!)


message 23: by Robert (last edited Jul 27, 2018 08:41AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Same old same old."

My response: So Rod, directly from the Bible (not your opinion), please quote the foundation upon which God SAYS that He makes His election.

You seem to think it is based on His whims (which He could do), but that is NOT what He SAYS that He makes His election based on.

Please, direct Bible quotes that validate your theory.


message 24: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Steve how do you get or reject the ability to accept Jesus? Dead men don't choose? We choose lust every time.


message 25: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Steve how do you get or reject the ability to accept Jesus? Dead men don't choose? We choose lust every time."

God's answer: Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..."

My response: Rod, why do you think the Gospel of Jesus Christ is TOO IMPOTENT to SAVE ANYONE?

Why do you believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ alone is LACKING POWER to SAVE?


message 26: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Steve how do you get or reject the ability to accept Jesus? Dead men don't choose? We choose lust every time."

My response: I see you AVOID my direct request for Scripture from God that tells us on what bases He makes His election. Why?


message 27: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
1 Peter 1:2 - " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

John 6:64-65

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


message 28: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Flinging the Gospel about does not save people. Believe me - I tried.

People are given a measure of faith by God. Most abuse it. God chose who would run with it. Yes, even against their stubborn will on occasion.
Some, like Elisha, are given even more faith.

The elect all have enough faith and Gospel to follow. Judas had???


message 29: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Flinging the Gospel about does not save people. Believe me - I tried."

God says quote: Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ : for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..."

My response: God says the GOSPEL is HIS POWER unto SALVATION...

Rod says... NO IT IS NOT!

Who should I believe? God or Rod?


message 30: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Robert please explain what you assume sanctification of the spirit is? Who does this? Based on what? How is a measure of faith involved?

Jesus Gospel does not work on satan. Or Judas. Or most of humanity. I'm not sure you know what it is exactly. Or how it is applied.


message 31: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Jesus Gospel does not work on satan. Or Judas. Or most of humanity. I'm not sure you know what it is exactly. Or how it is applied..."

My response: Salvation is NOT offered to satan or demons...

Jesus Gospel is God's POWER unto SALVATION and is OFFERED TO ALL...

It works by Grace through Faith.


message 32: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
So Rod, who should I believe, you or God?

You claim the Gospel does NOT WORK at times...
God says the Gospel IS His POWER unto SALVATION...

Note: NOWHERE does God say that His Gospel is NOT His POWER unto SALVATION most of the time.


message 33: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Robert please explain what you assume sanctification of the spirit is? Who does this?..."

My response: Lets assume for a minute you are correct, and God does it all.

According to your doctrine... God must be a miserable failure! (Note: I do not believe this... this is the position of Rod's doctrine.)

If God does it all... why are many believers lives filled with UNGODLINESS? Are you saying that is God's fault?


message 34: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yes, the gospel Is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. And that everyone IS the elect. Chosen by God for the Son.

But the gospel isn't just magic words thrown around. It's so much more. The very redemptive acts of Christ.


message 35: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yes, the gospel Is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. And that everyone IS the elect. Chosen by God for the Son...."

God says quote: Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ : for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..."

My response: Rod you have ADDED to the Word of God, your OPINION.

NOWHERE does God say that the Gospel is His POWER unto salvation ONLY FOR THE ELECT.

Please QUOTE such a verse.


message 36: by Robert (last edited Jul 27, 2018 09:57AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "But the gospel isn't just magic words thrown around...."

My response: The message of the Gospel are not just IMPOTENT words that are meaningless... because all of the elect will be FORCED into salvation. Thus making the message WEAK and UNECESSARY!


message 37: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "According to the Bible, what are the answers to these questions?

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." "


Those are statements, not questions. Are you asking what this means? You say you're a Christian, do you not know?


message 38: by Alexandra (last edited Jul 27, 2018 10:51AM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Steve wrote: "Christ’s death makes way for whosoever will call Him Lord."

Who do you suppose does that? Who, in their state of being spiritually dead, do you suppose has the ability to do that?

Scripture interprets Scripture, you must take the totality of what Scripture says on the topic together, not pick and choose, nor ripping verses out of context.

Robert also pointed out:

"Just one chapter prior to Romans 9, God CLEARLY tells us...

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."


And I'll add: "7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Ephesians 2:7-9

So, we see here, that faith - the very act of being able to "choose", is itself a gift of God.

"13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

Colossians 2:12-14

Even Robert pointed out: "65 He went on to say, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

We were saved while being dead by an act of God, not an act of ourselves.

Tell me, what do you suppose a dead man can do to save himself?


message 39: by Alexandra (last edited Jul 27, 2018 10:46AM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "NOWHERE does God say that the Gospel is His POWER unto salvation ONLY FOR THE ELECT."

I take this to mean you are asserting that the non-elect is saved, while elsewhere you appear to be merely quibbling over how the elect is elected:

"God's election is based on His foreknowledge of EVERYTHING... including who will respond to the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION."

"My response: Again you debate that which I agree with. God CHOSE us... no argument from me."

So, you reject the idea that only the elect (those God has chosen) are saved, and yet claim to agree that God chooses (the elect).

Figure out your actual position, then perhaps a rational discussion will be possible. ;)


message 40: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Those are statements, not questions. Are you asking what this means? You say you're a Christian, do you not know?..."

My response: Please read the original post. The questions are stated there and the verses I quoted are the answers to those questions. Thank you.


message 41: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Tell me, what do you suppose a dead man can do to save himself?..."

My response: Nothing. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ is powerful enough to bring the dead to life.

Do you disagree?


message 42: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "I take this to mean you are asserting that the non-elect is saved,..."

My response: Please re-read my posts. I have never said any such thing.

I believe that the elect are chosen based on God's foreknowledge (as He says) and that God knows everything.

I believe exactly this (with no personal commentary added)
_______________________

1 Peter 1:2 - " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

John 6:64-65

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, “ This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


message 43: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Figure out your actual position, then perhaps a rational discussion will be possible. ;) ..."

My response: My position is clear and has been clearly stated.

Those whom God foreknows are elected. God foreknows everything, including (but not limited to) who will endure to the end.


message 44: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yaayyyy! Alexandra dropped by. Welcome.


message 45: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Why do you think the Gospel is TOO WEAK to SAVE ANYONE? Why do you think Christ's sacrifice is TOO IMPOTENT to SAVE any person that the message is preached to?
Why do you think God does NOT KNOW EVERYTHING? "


" Rod, why do you think the Gospel of Jesus Christ is TOO IMPOTENT to SAVE ANYONE?

Why do you believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ alone is LACKING POWER to SAVE?"


Your lack of reading comprehension is showing, as literally no one here has said anything remotely like this.

And irony of ironies, this is what you do:

"YEP! I will NEVER sway from the FULL counsel of God's Word... while you continue to PROOF TEXT. "

" (eisegetes only want to validate their preconceived notions... not truth!)"

And then, there's this:

"God says the GOSPEL is HIS POWER unto SALVATION..."

Nice little misquote there, clever bit of careful editing. Let's see what it actually says,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes : first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."
Romans 1:16

"17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
John 3:17-19

And this:

"Jesus Gospel is God's POWER unto SALVATION and is OFFERED TO ALL...

It works by Grace through Faith."


And we know:

"7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."
Ephesians 2:7-9

And yet you say:

"You claim the Gospel does NOT WORK at times...
God says the Gospel IS His POWER unto SALVATION..."

However, Scripture says:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes : first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."
Romans 1:16

"17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
John 3:17-19

"Lets assume for a minute you are correct, and God does it all.

According to your doctrine... God must be a miserable failure!"


Nope, it means God is not a liar.

"7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."
Your pride is showing, Robert. Clearly you desire to believe that you've done something to earn or deserve God's favor.

When the reality is, there is nothing anyone can do to earn or deserve God's favor. Nothing we can do to put God in our debt. Nothing we can do to earn salvation or cause God to then save us.

It's not God who is the miserable failure, but we who were dead, spiritually dead. Which is pretty much the ultimate in failure.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness"
Romans 4:4-5

You, Robert, want to believe you've done something that obligates God to save you, while God makes it clear that He justifies the wicked who has not done anything to earn or deserve it (being wicked and spiritually dead), and that the very act of faith is itself a gift, an act of grace, from God Himself.

Yet you poo poo the notion that your weak and pitiful failure of a god, "does it all", and make God a liar.

No one can earn or merit salvation. We cannot put God into our debt.


message 46: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yaayyyy! Alexandra dropped by. Welcome."

My response: Rod, in the mean time would you kindly answer (direct quotes from the Bible), what God clearly says is His foundation for choosing His elect?

Thank you.


message 47: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Rod wrote: "Yaayyyy! Alexandra dropped by. Welcome."

*waves*


message 48: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Please read the original post."

I did. It says,

"According to the Bible, what are the answers to these questions?

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.""

Those are statements, not questions.


message 49: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Your lack of reading comprehension is showing, as literally no one here has said anything remotely like this..."

My response: not true. Some say that the non-elect cannot be brought to life by God's POWER unto salvation. The Gospel.

The key is what God's election is based on. The Bible tells us what that is.

If God's election is based on nothing... then the Gospel IS too WEAK to save anyone.

If God's election is based on His foreknowledge... then the Gospel IS God's POWER unto salvation for ALL... and His election is based on His foreknowledge of everyone's response to His POWERFUL Gospel.


message 50: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Nice little misquote there, clever bit of careful editing. Let's see what it actually says,..."

My response: Talk about mis-quoting. You go on to speak about "believing". However, there is NO legitimate believing if there is NO legitimate offer of salvation.

But of course, God says He legitimately offers salvation unto ALL!

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

Your focus on "believing" also invalidates the fact that the offer has been made unto all... and whosoever will call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved.


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