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Archived Group Reads 2018 > Wuthering Heights - Week 5 -- Chapters XXVII - End

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message 1: by Cindy, Moderator (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 423 comments Mod
Sorry I'm late with this week's post! My daughter has been visiting from California and these have been her last couple of days here. :( According to the reading schedule, we finish the book this week.

This week, we saw Heathcliff reach new levels of evil. He proves that there is nothing he will not do to visit the sins of the fathers on their offspring. He kidnaps young Cathy and holds her prisoner, forcing her to marry the dying Linton. This is a terrible thing but is exacerbated by the fact that her father, Edgar, is also dying and Heathcliff could possibly either be hastening his enemy's death with worry about his daughter's fate or at the least depriving Cathy of seeing her father again before he dies.

Cathy marries Linton, giving Heathcliff control of whatever she inherits after her father's death. He finally has what he so badly wanted--he is the "lord" of both estates and has what remains of both the Earnshaw and Linton fortunes. He also has the children of both families living in poverty and degradation. Somehow, it doesn't seem to be all that he thought it would be.

I'm not going to summarize the end of this passage--I'd rather hear your thoughts. So what did you think of the ending? Were you horrified by Heathcliff's ruthlessness? Did you see any softening in his attitudes at times? What did you think of Cathy's behavior to Heathcliff? Toward Hareton? Did anyone else (besides me!) have a soft spot for Hareton? What do you think about Hareton and Cathy's engagement?

Please share your thoughts and questions about this week's segment! Don't forget that next week we will have a thread for discussion of the whole book and/or comparisons between versions of the movie and/or the movies and the book. Personally, I'm going to have to watch some of these versions this week. I've only seen the one with Laurence Olivier, and that was a million years ago. ;)


message 2: by Clarissa (last edited Jul 11, 2018 01:34AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Cindy wrote: "Sorry I'm late with this week's post! My daughter has been visiting from California and these have been her last couple of days here. :( According to the reading schedule, we finish the book this w..."

yay! I am so happy that I managed to catch up, reading this intense and rich book together is so enjoyable.

I think Hareton is the one completely good character in the book,. Aside from I think when he is a child, does he throw stones or is just rude to Nelly when she sees him again (?), Hareton doesn't become bitter or twisted by his experiences.
I liked how he grieved and wept and kissed Heathcliff's corpse. And it made me wonder if a companionship had developed between them as they've obviously spent a long time together that Nelly didn't see or was biased against? Or is Hareton just a kind forgiving angel in this rough place? Though in the psychology of our real world children who have been abused by their parents often still have great love for them. So it's possible to read his grief in different ways.

One thing I noticed in the last couple of pages was how the two narrators are emphasised as being suspect once again.
When Nelly talks about the doctor not knowing why Heathcliff has died she admits:
'I concealed the fact of his having swallowed nothing for four days, fearing it might lead to trouble, and then, I am persuaded, he did not abstain on purpose: it was the consequence of his strange illness, not the cause.'

In this little sentence she says that she lied to a medical professional and assumes that she knows what has happened better than Mr Kenneth does, which displays clearly how she edits what she says to certain people and then justifies it to satisfy her own conscience.

And then Lockwood sees a couple happy in each other's company, and instead of being warmed as most people are by love he grumbles, 'They are afraid of nothing' and then runs away not caring about manners (despite considering himself a civilised man), just the same as he ran away from the woman he liked at the beginning of the novel leading to him ending up in a solitude he didn't want at Thrushcross Grange.

In the 1840s Emily Bronte was experimenting and taking the idea of an unreliable narrator to heights that modern writers can only stare in awe at :D


message 3: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 1993 comments Mod
This is a very good point, Clari. You’re right about both Nelly & Lockwood, and have given me something else to ponder. :)


Nina Clare | 135 comments Cindy wrote: "So what did you think of the ending? Were you horrified by Heathcliff's ruthlessness? Did you see any softening in his attitudes at times?"

I was jumping at Heathcliff's behaviour!! he made me so angry I couldn't sleep until I'd read the whole of this section right through - I had to see him get some kind of comeuppence!
Surprisingly, what I got instead was feeling a strange sympathy for Heathcliff as he lost all his aggression, becoming gripped by a 'visitation' of Cathy. I thought the ghostly ending neatly bookended the ghostly beginning of Lockwood's 'visitation'.
I was so relieved that Heathcliff was gone and could cause no more suffering, and pleasantly surprised by the unexpected romance between Cathy and Hareton. After giving me so much angst, the story ended on a hopeful and elegeic note that was very satisfying.



Inkspill (runinkspill) I was pleasantly surprised by the ending, and liked how Bronte wrote Heathcliff’s big change without it being an anti-climax.

Heathcliff was a very complex character - his pain made him vile and ruthless but there was also tenderness. Having read Dark Quartet: The Story of the Brontës I wondered if his character was a composite of Byron and Bronte's brother Branwell, whom she was v close to.


Anastasia Coles | 3 comments At the end of the audiobook version with Juliet Stevenson, she says that one can read Heathcliff as an Irish foundling and the relationships in the novel as standing in for relations with Ireland. I don't know how much support there is for that point of view.

To the very end, I take Heathcliff as a sort of elemental, Rousseauean (sp?) force. I mean, he has no real parentage, he's dark and stormy, even his name comes from the natural world that plays such a prominent role in the narrative structure. I don't know that he had a political symbolism as much as a symbol of a kind of unbridled passion - that, necessarily for Bronte has to be depicted as cruel. I'm still at a loss for why this is sometimes considered a romantic novel. Cathy and Heathcliff are horrible people - even their love for each other sort of surpasses human cruelty - like they were feral children together and that cemented everything. I almost wonder, still, if Bronte was holding up the idea of "great passion" to Enlightenment scrutiny and found it too unruly.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Hareton and young Cathy are what Heathcliff and Catherine could have been if they had been more "civilized" and empathic... and clever.

Indeed, Catherine could have chosen Heathcliff and doing her best to give him her knowledge; but was she too proud? too selfish? too lazy? to turn Heathcliff into an educated and civilzed gentleman? Has she thought that she couldn't do anything good with Heathcliff?

On the contrary, Hareton has shown more than one time to young Cathy his desire to learn, to change. And young Cathy finally came to him to teach him all what she'd learned and to give him (to give both of them) a chance to have a beautiful life, at least a decent life.

I like Hareton and young Cathy, they're the strongest characters of the novel: with their strength against adversity (what has happened to them in their young lives, and Heathcliff), with kindness and love, they defeated Heathcliff; more than this, they killed the beast in him by making him giving up his revenge.
And all their misfortunes make sense: instead of being children spoiled by a rich, loved and easy life, becoming adults unaware of their luck, they'll know that happiness is an each day conquest, that it's not due because of the family in which you were born.


Brittany (Lady Red) (ladyred19) | 152 comments Interesting point. Especially as a watered down version of Heathcliff can be found in mass market romance everywhere. They aren’t good people, Cathy or Heathcliff nor, in many ways, are they realistic people.
My knowledge of the early classics is sketchy, I’m not really aGreek or Roman fan, but maybe they were based on an archetype I’m not aware of?
Or perhaps a version of Adam and Eve?


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Clari wrote: "And then Lockwood sees a couple happy in each other's company, and instead of being warmed as most people are by love he grumbles, 'They are afraid of nothing' and then runs away not caring about manners"

I don't like Lockwood: he's always been outside the story, because he's always thought he was higher than WH inhabitants; I don't like people who judge the others, thinking they know everything about life, without having really lived themselves.

Lockwood's right when he thinks: 'They're afraid of nothing'.
If he runs away, it's because he would have been pleased to come as a savior. But it's too late, the two Hareton and young Cathy saved themselves without any external help, so yes, I think they were strong and their adventure made them even stronger.
Maybe Lockwood is also a bit ashamed because, seeing the two young people, he realizes he'll never be as strong as they are.


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Anastasia wrote: "At the end of the audiobook version with Juliet Stevenson, she says that one can read Heathcliff as an Irish foundling and the relationships in the novel as standing in for relations with Ireland. ..."

The unreliable narrators allow incredible room for many different interpretations, including the romantic one that Cathy and Heathcliff are in a world that cannot understand them, the device of using Nelly and Lockwood being the lens we see them through, highlights the fact that passionless people are incapable of understanding true love and instead colour it as selfish and cruel to cover their own cold hearts. In this interpretation we cannot trust Nelly or Lockwood's narration and instead have to imagine Cathy and Heathcliff ourselves because such a bond is a thing of dreams and ghosts anyway.

Another way is conversely just to accept the narration but believe in a love that is so strong it sends people mad. The attraction is not in their personalities it is in the idea of an attachment that never fades however much time pasts, it reaches beyond social convention and even the boundaries of death.

Or yet another interpretation is that Emily Bronte is presenting lots of different versions of romance and love. Isabella's devotion to Heathcliff is based on lies, Edgar's to Cathy based on the fact she has to change herself (or at least hide her wildness) and Heathcliff and Cathy's is the one based on truth. It is saying that true love is not pretty and civilised, it is wild and unseen, but it is honest.
Continuing from this, it can also be seen that it is Catherine and Hareton that have the perfect relationship that Cathy and Heathcliff couldn't obtain. Catherine's initial dislike based on social expectations, transforms into genuine respect for his nature, and they move beyond the obstacles that would keep them apart and right the wrongs of the previous generation through their love.


message 11: by Nina (new) - rated it 4 stars

Nina Clare | 135 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Hareton and young Cathy are what Heathcliff and Catherine could have been if they had been more "civilized" and empathic... and clever.

That's a great point! I hadn't thought of it till I read that, but Hareton and young Cathy are the redeemed version of Heathcliff and Cathy. Heath & C ended in tragedy, but Hare & C end the story on a happy ending.



message 12: by SherryRose (last edited Jul 12, 2018 12:03PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

SherryRose | 68 comments The fact that Heathcliff forced this marriage as poor Cathy’s father was dying shows who he was. It was the cruelest thing he could do. I would say it’s sadistic in nature. This is one of the many reasons I feel really surprised when people say they love Heathcliff. His cruelty started very early in his life and got worse and worse. Vengeance turned him into a monster. He was right to feel resentment and anger. The problem is that when he went away into the world he chose not to grow and learn while he was out of isolation. He could have met another woman and moved on with his life. He could have stayed single and chosen a nice circle of friends and maybe found happiness in that. The hatred in his heart destroyed any possibility of happiness. He was stuck in his hateful existence. He took his anger out on so many innocent victims beginning with Isabella and moving into the next generation. He died in a state of insanity because of his sick obsession for Catherine. She married another man. He should have moved away. He decided to stay so he could get his revenge on Hindley. Hindley was self destructive already so it was unnecessary. He was determined to corrupt Hareton to further punish Hindley. This was one of his goals. He wanted to torture and corrupt the next generation. He was paralyzed by hate and it ultimately turned him into a very dillusional mentally ill shell. He died in a fantasy frame of mind. He thought Cathy was there. Maybe that’s a good thing but had he chosen a better life he probably wouldn’t have starved himself to death while following a fantasy. On the other hand, Lockwood claimed to have seen a ghost before he heard the story...hmmm


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "He could have met another woman and moved on with his life. He could have stayed single and chosen a nice circle of friends and maybe found happiness in that..."

Heathcliff isn't someone I wish my daughter would meet or fall in love with!
This said, for him, it was Catherine or nothing. Yes, he's unhappy in WH without her; but his life without her is cold, his life with her would have been too hot, but a life with another woman or friends would have been too lukewarm, and a bland life, for such a man, would be unbearable.


SherryRose | 68 comments Ahh probably so. I think he had some major mental problems but that’s another can of worms lol!


message 15: by Clarissa (last edited Jul 12, 2018 03:27PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Sherry wrote: "TI feel really surprised when people say they love Heathcliff. His cruelty started very early in his life and got worse and worse...."

Heathcliff is often argued about in terms of nature or nurture. I am not entirely certain, but I think earlier critics saw him as a demonic evil figure dropped into a nice household and causing problems from the start, whereas more modern critics have ideas that he represents various things from colonization, through nature and repressed female sexuality, to social unrest. With, as has been discussed, Nelly and Lockwood representing traditional forces who animalise him and miscontrue him within their narrative because he represents something that unsettles their sense of order and rightness.

On a more simple view, I remember my old English teacher saying some teenage girls always fall in love with Heathcliff because at a time of so much confusion in their real life they read a book with a protagonist who cuts through everything and simply loves; whatever Catherine does he'll be there, he won't ever forget about her, she is irreplaceable, he'll tear worlds apart to be with her, there is never doubt in him that she is the one he was destined to be with, and twenty years later he is still screaming at windows and wanting to be buried next to her.
And then I think after you've lived a few years and had a few heartbreaks and betrayals, you might not want Heathcliff precisely, but the daydream of a man who loves one woman through his whole life can be quite appealing :D

Though my critical instinct is that Emily Bronte was probably trying to show how the Byronic hero wasn't desirable and that Hareton is the real hero, someone who keeps kindness in his heart despite the world he lives in.


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Cindy Newton | 423 comments Mod
Clari wrote: "On a more simple view, I remember my old English teacher saying some teenage girls always fall in love with Heathcliff because at a time of so much confusion in their real life they read a book with a protagonist who cuts through everything and simply loves; whatever Catherine does he'll be there, he won't ever forget about her, she is irreplaceable, he'll tear worlds apart to be with her, there is never doubt in him that she is the one he was destined to be with, and twenty years later he is still screaming at windows and wanting to be buried next to her.
And then I think after you've lived a few years and had a few heartbreaks and betrayals, you might not want Heathcliff precisely..."


LOL! You are so right!! :) Such intensity and devotion would be appealing to a teenager! Kind of like Edward in Twilight, who is SO romantic as he tells Bella where she can go and who she can be friends with, physically restrains her when he feels she needs to stay, and watches her sleep. What is romantic today is a restraining order tomorrow! :)


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "Ahh probably so. I think he had some major mental problems but that’s another can of worms lol!"

Maybe...
Maybe I'm crazy too, because sometimes I wish I could live life to the full, like a Heathcliff, live more deeply.
I think Heathcliff is gone where few people dare to go inside love, hate which are both passion... yes, maybe where only mad people dare to go?


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments I said in a previous comment that I didn't like Lockwood, and explained why. But now I'm trapped, because I wonder if Lockwood couldn't be us, the readers? I mean the readers of Bronte time:
They were of a certain level od education, they mostly were in the cities. They came to the countryside and allowed themselves to judge people living there, without knowing them, and with a bit of fear also. They were curious about people like the Bronte family, but wouldn't have liked to get involved in their lives.
Like us, readers from the 21 century, we're delighted to read about Heathcliff, whether we like him or not, but we don't dare to fall into passion.
So, yes, maybe Bronte introduced Lockwood to this story, to tell us, readers: this is how you are!

And maybe Nelly is the author, she lives with the characters, try not to judge them, but can't help with doing it sometimes and giving us her point of view.


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Gabrielle wrote: "I said in a previous comment that I didn't like Lockwood, and explained why. But now I'm trapped, because I wonder if Lockwood couldn't be us, the readers? I mean the readers of Bronte time:
They w..."


For me the heart and point of the narrator structure is about challenging the reader: are we like Lockwood, disinterested, hearing a story to pass the time, judging people based on our own prejudices? Or can we move past our own experiences and have empathy for people who are completely different to us? Can we let some of the passion of the story haunt us and remain with us, or do we bury and forget about it once we've finished the last page?


Charlotte (charlottecph) | 271 comments Heathcliff and his elemental, powerful cruelty has given me nightmares two nights in a row! :)

My impression of this book is totally different from when I read it when I was young.

I was happy when Brontë brought in a second generation of characters and I love the way she juggled them around to give another version of the fates that we saw of the first generation.

I just watched the movie with Laurence Olivier from 1939 and that whole part is entirely omitted! I myself also thought it was enough when the first Catherine died and the story dragged on for some time. But the second part is genious and I love the new perspective.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Clari wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "I said in a previous comment that I didn't like Lockwood, and explained why. But now I'm trapped, because I wonder if Lockwood couldn't be us, the readers? I mean the readers of B..."

Yes, this join what I said! 🙂


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Nina wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Hareton and young Cathy are what Heathcliff and Catherine could have been if they had been more "civilized" and empathic... and clever.

That's a great point! I hadn't thought of ..."


Thanks Nina!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Charlotte wrote: "I was happy when Brontë brought in a second generation of characters and I love the way she juggled them around to give another version of the fates that we saw of the first generation. ..."
That's what I said in message 7, about Hareton and young Cathy, they're not here to have a kind of a happy ending, they're well built and interesting characters. I agree with you.


SherryRose | 68 comments Clari wrote: "Sherry wrote: "TI feel really surprised when people say they love Heathcliff. His cruelty started very early in his life and got worse and worse...."

Heathcliff is often argued about in terms of n..."


Yes, thank goodness for Hareton. He and Cathy broke the cycle.


message 25: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 1993 comments Mod
Well, I have to admit that I was kinda hoping Cathy’s ghost would snatch up Heathcliff, then rip out his heart and eat it for being so heartless to her daughter and family. That’s not love, you horrible Cretan!

But I’ve made peace with the “happy” ending. Cathy doesn’t show herself to H until after he relents somewhat and allows the relationship between Catherine & Hareton. He doesn’t seem to have the bitter fuel to continue torturing the next generation, once he has everything and it brings him no joy. Maybe it’s this relenting which gives her spirit a reason to connect with him again. Or perhaps the weakening of his madness allows him to finally connect with her spirit, since Lockwood’s experience at the beginning makes it seem that her spirit lingered outside the window all along.


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Charlotte wrote: "Heathcliff and his elemental, powerful cruelty has given me nightmares two nights in a row! :)

My impression of this book is totally different from when I read it when I was young. .."


Oh no! I hope the nightmares have stopped!

I think the classic novels can be read at different times in our life and mean totally different things to us. I find all the novels I devoured as a teenager viewing them as about grown up adult life, I now return to and think they're all about what it feels like to be young :D


message 27: by Clarissa (last edited Jul 14, 2018 02:17AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Renee wrote: "Well, I have to admit that I was kinda hoping Cathy’s ghost would snatch up Heathcliff, then rip out his heart and eat it for being so heartless to her daughter and family. That’s not love, you hor..."

Do you see Heathcliff as bad as he is shown, Renee? I've been really struck by the flawed narrative and wonder if all we see is Nelly and Lockwood's warped vision of him? Something struck me early on in the narrative when Heathcliff actually takes the time to go and visit Lockwood to see if he is okay and I think brings him some birds too. That seems so out of character to the tyrannous misanthropic man that Lockwood and Nelly perceive that I thought it had to be a sign that there is a lot more going on with him than the narrators are capable of seeing.
I also wonder if Hareton's grief is another clue as he loves Catherine so why would he mourn so much for someone who tormented her?
I feel that 'Wuthering Heights' is like a mystery novel and you have to search for all the little hints of what is really going on, and the answer I've ended up with is that I have no idea! :D


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Renee wrote: "Well, I have to admit that I was kinda hoping Cathy’s ghost would snatch up Heathcliff, then rip out his heart and eat it for being so heartless to her daughter and family. That’s not love, you hor..."
Like button!


SherryRose | 68 comments I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to corrupt Hareton and keep him dumbed down as a way of getting back at Hindley. Yet I see in a subtle way that a small part of him might have liked him. He was like Heathcliff in some ways. He wasn’t hardened and bitter though. Actually it’s the nature nurture thing. I think Heathcliff trained him to be rough but it was more like Hareton to be a good person in the end. When Cathy was snobby towards Hareton it made me think of when her mother was the same way to Heathcliff. Both of them were made to feel very insecure. That was the thing the 2 had in common. It was a class thing.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to corrupt Hareton a..."

This is where we see that young Cathy and Hareton are much stronger than Catherine and Heathcliff. They overcome the difficulties of their lives, they do not let misery take hold of them, they strive to triumph the good in them, and they succeed.
I suppose Bronte has asked herself the question of the inborn( innate? I'm not sure about the English, here. :D! Maybe you think, my english isn't surr anywhere, but, never mind, I don't see it!) and the acquired (learned?): two people raised in the same conditions do not always give two equivalent results.


SherryRose | 68 comments Very true Gabrielle. They might have learned by watching Heathcliff. They saw how miserable he was and chose to rise above that.


Laurene | 158 comments Clari wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sorry I'm late with this week's post! My daughter has been visiting from California and these have been her last couple of days here. :( According to the reading schedule, we finish t..."

Love your comments!


Laurene | 158 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to co..."

Gabrielle wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to co..."

Like button! :)


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to corrupt Hareton a..."

Although, Hareton probably doesn't know, Heathcliff is the one that saves his life when his own drunken father throws him over the banister. For me that was one of the moments when Heathcliff showed that he wasn't a demon or just a revenge monster, his instincts were to immediately move and save the child. It is when he thinks and brews on things that it all goes wrong!

I like to think Hareton and Heathcliff got on well together on their own in between Heathcliff's plotting, working the land, rolling their eyes at Joseph's sermons, taking the dogs for walks together....who knows? :D


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Clari wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to co..."

With the kind of dogs living in WH, I wonder if it's not rather the dogs that walk the masters! 😊


SherryRose | 68 comments Clari wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to co..."

I was struck by that incident. It’s a real awakening into Nelly’s prejudice. She says that if it were dark that Heathcliff would have smashed the baby’s head. That was so unfair. Heathcliff was no angel but Nelly couldn’t read minds. Heathcliff could have easily sidestepped Hareton and let him fall to the ground.


message 37: by Cindy, Moderator (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 423 comments Mod
Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to corrupt Hareton and keep him dumbed down as a way of getting back at Hindley. Yet I see in a subtle way that a small part of him might have liked him. He was like Heathcliff in some ways. .."

I think Hareton was fond of Heathcliff, too. Heathcliff's plan is to turn Hareton, basically, into the younger version of himself--uneducated, ignorant, unsociable, fit only to be a servant. Seeing Hindley's son living the life Hindley tried to force Heathcliff into was the long-range plan. Being cruel to Hareton on a daily basis, treating him with the savage ferocity he uses on everyone else was not part of it. Earning Hindley's son's hatred would detract from his victory--for it to be complete, Heathcliff needed HIndley's son to be devoted to him. I don't think he anticipated that Hareton's situation would strike a chord of sympathy with him. As I said before, I also don't think it hurt that as Hareton gets older, he apparently favors his aunt Catherine more and more.


message 38: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 1993 comments Mod
That’s a good point. Heathcliff treated everyone with shabby brutality ... unless he wanted to manipulate a person. Then he could be charming, I think. Although that mostly happens off-page and we only see the result. (I don’t think he was that way with Cathy though. I think their bond was genuine and before he learned the trick of dissimulation.)


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Renee wrote: "That’s a good point. Heathcliff treated everyone with shabby brutality ... unless he wanted to manipulate a person. Then he could be charming, I think. Although that mostly happens off-page and we ..."

Oooh, that's interesting, when do you think he's charming, Renee?
My feeling is that Nelly and Lockwood don't like or understand him because he is different and other, and I think the narrative is deliberately harsh on him, but shows it is being biased. But I don't imagine him as charming. I think he probably has a brutal honesty that some people find attractive, or super masculine energy like Clint Eastwood in his western films. He's got huge curly sideburns in my mind's image too, just because that's how he was drawn on the cover of the first 'Wuthering Heights' I saw!


SherryRose | 68 comments Cindy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I think poor Hareton mourned the loss of Heathcliff because he was actually his parent. His real father ignored him for the most part. I got the feeling that Heathcliff was out to co..."

Ah yes. His eyes were so much like Catherine’s that Heathcliff found it hard to be around him in the end.


message 41: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 1993 comments Mod
I think he charmed Isabelle into marrying him. I think he must have applied it to a degree to attain the success which made him rich. He uses it against Catherine, jr ... at first. I don’t think it’s his nature but a pose he adopts towards his ends. And he only maintains it until he gets what he wants. Then he drops it like the mask it is.


message 42: by SherryRose (last edited Jul 18, 2018 11:15AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

SherryRose | 68 comments He used charm on Isabella but he never told her he loved her. I don’t think he had to try too hard. She wanted him before he ever asked. She had a fantasy in her mind. This handsome and rough guy has a warm heart under the gruff. She was wrong. Poor thing.


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Sherry wrote: "He used charm on Isabella but he never told her he loved her. I don’t think he had to try too hard. She wanted him before he ever asked. She had a fantasy in her mind. This handsome and rough guy h..."

I saw it a bit like that too, I think he does the opposite of charm Isabella, he kills her dog! It's Isabella who charms herself and creates a fantasy out of what she wants Heathcliff to be rather than what he really is to her. It is the extreme of a teenage girl romanticising a man because she is so desperate to have an outlet for her emerging passion and desire.


message 44: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 1993 comments Mod
I agree with how you describe Isabella. But he didn’t mistreat her little dog until she was committed to the elopement. I guess it’s potato, potahto.


Clarissa (clariann) | 535 comments Renee wrote: "I agree with how you describe Isabella. But he didn’t mistreat her little dog until she was committed to the elopement. I guess it’s potato, potahto."

Do you think if she'd had a moment of enlightenment then and decided that someone who strangles your pet is not the best husband material, Heathcliff would have let her go?
My reading is that the violence excited her as it was so different to anything she'd experienced before, but then she had to grow up incredibly fast when she realised that her husband really wasn't in love with her and didn't even like her. Though I may be thinking of a few relationships I've seen in real life, mainly females doting on males, but a couple of times the other way around too!
And I see Heathcliff's attitude towards her growing from indifference to absolute contempt. I think the very fact she'd marry him makes him despise her, but he marries her because he can, it is her attraction that is the origin of it rather than a plan on his part to win her over.


SherryRose | 68 comments Clari wrote: "Renee wrote: "I agree with how you describe Isabella. But he didn’t mistreat her little dog until she was committed to the elopement. I guess it’s potato, potahto."

Do you think if she'd had a mom..."


I agree 100% with both of your posts!


Louise Culmer | 46 comments i like Hareton and Cathy, and am glad they are happy together at the end. after the ghastly Heathcliff and Catherine, it's a relief to encounter two people I actually like, and whose fate I care about.


SherryRose | 68 comments I like them too Louise. They chose to rise above the ugliness to have a happy life together. They changed a very miserable Wuthering Heights into a loving household.


Inkspill (runinkspill) I didn't see the ending coming - a complete surprise and I liked the contrast between the two Cathy's love lives.

And maybe I'm reading too much into it - I thought it was almost like Cathy was given a second chance

Yeah - maybe I'm reading too much into it


message 50: by SherryRose (last edited Jul 26, 2018 04:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

SherryRose | 68 comments Maybe Wuthering Heights itself gets a second chance. All those living there lifted it out of sadness and it’s brand new now. Maybe all of the past characters can Rest In Peace now. Love heals.


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