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Do you like Robert? (SPOILERS)

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Scott Kinkade This guy is quite the character, and I imagine people have varying opinions of him. Did you like him? Were you saddened at his death?

Pros:
1.) Ballsy
2.) Actually did something about Mad King Aerys
3.) Rescinded the order to kill Dany and Viserys
4.) Loyal to his friends and family

Cons:
1.) Doesn't usually listen to Ned
2.) Hit his wife (we know she's an incestuous, homicidal psychopath, but he didn't, and I can't condone domestic abuse)
3.) Ordered the murder of innocent children
4.) Henpecked by his wife


TheBohemianBookworm I don't like him. He is a smelly drunk old brute who made Cersei's life a misery. And I don't condone Cersei but I feel bad for having to live with the man. Ugh


Matthew Williams Mixed feelings. Sure, he lost the love of his life and was forced into a loveless marriage with Cersei. But his drunken, lecherous, ill-tempered and irresponsible nature is really quite inexcusable. And let's not forget his role in the murder of the Targaryen children and his ordering of Daneary's murder (I know, he recanted, but still).

But, like most, I don't think he got what he deserved. For all his crap, I don't think Robert deserved to die, and Cersei definitely did not deserve to prosper!


message 4: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos Mixed feelings about him - yes.

While he couldn´t rule a hen-house much less 7 kingdoms, he didn´t deserve to die, less of all at the hands of Cersei. He was a fun loving man, althoughi can´t condone his beating of Cersei, his drunkeness and the overall lack of will to actually be King: he skiped Counsil whenever he felt like it, took to whoring and jousting - that´s what rulling meant to him. Not the boring stuff. Also he a real lack of parenting skills, but so is Cersei, so, the fault is not all on him.

All he enjoyed about beying King was getting there: the fighting, the battles, the smell of blood. After he got the crown, the spark was gone.

As i´ve said in the begining, he didn´t dersed to die that way, much less to prevent him from knowing waht his wife was really like.


message 5: by Laura (last edited Aug 02, 2014 02:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Laura Herzlos I think that the young Robert who rebelled against the mad king is not the same "old" Robert who was king when we meet him in AGoT. He changed, he became used to excesses and power. Someone said, in the books (I don't remember where) that a great warrior not necessarily makes a good king.

He never even tried to like Cersei, starting on their wedding night, when he was wasted and called her Lyanna. He hit her often and forced himself on her whenever he liked (which was considered normal in Westeros as a husband, I know). As Scott said, he didn't know all that we know about Cersei; he just knew that she was Lannister and she wasn't Lyanna. But he didn't love the real Lyanna, only an idealization of her that only existed in his head. And the real Lyanna was quite different from this idea that he had.

The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."
"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."


His obsession with killing all Targaryen descendants, with lovely quotes like: "I see no babes, only dragonspawn". He only revoked the order after Ned resigned as Hand of the King and got attacked viciously by Jaime (and lost a few men), if I remember correctly.

So, Robert used to be ballsy and courageous when he was a warrior, but as a king, as Ned said, he got used to not seeing what he didn't want to see and just let fly. He was more into whoring and partying than into actual ruling the realm, he seldom attended Council meetings, etc.

I feel a mix of dislike and pity for Robert. We first meet him through the eyes of someone who loved him much, his loyal friend. But even Ned becomes disappointed and saddened by the kind of king he became.

He [Robert] sighed and shook his head. "Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king." Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know."
"Your Grace..." Ned began, carefully.
Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark."


I can see that he had the best intentions, but he lacked the skills as a king and let the Lannisters, Varys and Littlefinger run the show. He wasn't stupid, so he knew it well and he thought that Ned would help him be the kind of king he wanted to be, even though he often didn't listen to Ned, because he wanted to eat his cake and have it too.

"... I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. We'll make this a reign to sing of, and damn the Lannisters to seven hells."

And that makes me sad.


TheBohemianBookworm Scott wrote: "This guy is quite the character, and I imagine people have varying opinions of him. Did you like him? Were you saddened at his death?

Pros:
1.) Ballsy
2.) Actually did something about Mad King Aer..."



How is being henpecked a genuine problem?


Angel Castillo Laura wrote: "I think that the young Robert who rebelled against the mad king is not the same "old" Robert who was king when we meet him in AGoT. He changed, he became used to excesses and power. Someone said, i..."

It is not his fault, not really


Angel Castillo I love Robert, yeah he was a bad king, not denying that, yet as a person I loved his attitude. He did had a short temper, but hey everyone has their faults. Now about Cersei although I don't condone domestic violence, you got to admit she was a cunt. He didn't know about Jaime yet she made his life impossible. I agree he became used to the life at court, therefore grew soft and didn't see what was happening. Yet although the Crown was in debt, there was peace, and people liked him. I remember Stannis saying how Robert could convince anyone to join him, as those two guys from Summerhall.


message 9: by Laura (last edited Aug 02, 2014 04:23PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Laura Herzlos Angel wrote: "Now about Cersei although I don't condone domestic violence, you got to admit she was a cunt."

I can admit she is a terrible person, but that doesn't justify a man hitting his wife. About her making his life impossible, we only have his word for it. All the horrible and criminal things we "saw" her doing (or giving orders to get done) are things that only her power as queen regent gave her, power that she got after Robert died. What could she possibly do to Robert, nag him all day? Refuse to have sex with him when he got all drunk to her chambers? He hit her, and not once. End of story. That's an abusive husband in my book.

Angel wrote: "It is not his fault, not really"

What is it that wasn't his fault? Sending assassins after children because they were "dragonspawn"? Deflowering country maids and whoring and leaving a trail of bastards? Drowning the crown in debt with all his parties and jousts? Not giving a shit about injustice as long as he could have fun? Neglecting his duties as king? Neglecting his duties as father? Hitting his wife? Being a drunken? You know... The only reason Cersei's scheme to facilitate his death worked was because he was so predictably going to be wasted while hunting. How responsible is that for a king?

I'm not saying he was a horrible person. He may have been very charismatic, but not a truly nice guy at the core.


message 10: by . (new) - rated it 5 stars

. Before becoming king I'd say I like him (from what I inferred from Ned's recollections). After becoming King he went downhill big time. I wanted to like him as a King, but he just got too drunk and violent.


message 11: by Matthew (last edited Aug 02, 2014 06:42PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Angel wrote: "Now about Cersei although I don't condone domestic violence, you got to admit she was a cunt."

I can admit she is a terrible person, but that doesn't justify a man hitting his wife. ..."


Keep in mind the same things that are used to defend Cersei apply to him too. He was also forced into a loveless marriage; but in his case, it was after losing the love of his life. You say he didn't love her, but an idealized version of her. But is that not what we do with those we have loved and lost? It doesn't mean his love was less than genuine. If anything, he's idealized her because it was the last time he felt actual love.

And I would venture that one of the reasons Ned sees his sister differently is because he knew the truth. Whereas Robert chooses to believe she was abducted and murdered (hence his hatred for Targaryens) Ned knows that she eloped and gave birth to a Targaryen lovechild. He would never tell Robert this, of course, so as to let him preserve the illusion. But of course, this is all in keeping with the R+L=J theory, and that's another thread entirely ;)


message 12: by Scott (last edited Aug 02, 2014 08:12PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Scott Kinkade Hannah wrote: "How is being henpecked a genuine problem?"

In particular, I'm referring to the incident where Arya's wolf bit Joffrey and Cersei made Robert have Ned kill it even though it wasn't their fault. Too often Robert gave into her just to get her off his back, which had disastrous consequences for Ned's family.


message 13: by TheBohemianBookworm (last edited Aug 02, 2014 10:22PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

TheBohemianBookworm Yeah. But this shouldn't have anything to do with whether Cersei was a woman, hence the henpecking. It could have easily been a man who convinced him,and he could still have done it.


Laura Herzlos Matthew wrote: "Keep in mind the same things that are used to defend Cersei apply to him too."

You keep thinking that I defend Cersei and justify her actions (this comes from another thread, sorry guys). But I don't. I say all the time that she's a terrible person, who committed horrible crimes. I merely understand where her actions and "wickedness" come from and I don't hate her.

That said, I also said that I don't hate Robert. I don't like him (any more than I like Cersei) and I think that abusing Cersei has no justification whatsoever, in the same way that I said elsewhere that Cersei's crimes aren't justified.

Both Robert and Cersei were forced into a loveless marriage, and he chose to abuse her. That's not justified, no matter how much nagging Cersei did to him.


TheBohemianBookworm Exactly. Abuse is not justified by nagging.


message 16: by Matthew (last edited Aug 03, 2014 10:02AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Keep in mind the same things that are used to defend Cersei apply to him too."

You keep thinking that I defend Cersei and justify her actions (this comes from another thread, sorry..."


I'm not saying that, just reminding everyone that Robert's bad behaviour has a context too. And you have said many times over, and you did just now, that her wickedness is due to Roberts abuse. In truth, her wickedness goes deeper than this, and much of Roberts abusiveness came from his own trauma and heartbreak. If we're going to make allowances for one character being complex and sympathetic, I think we should both.


Laura Herzlos Hum... I never said that her wickedness is due to Robert's abuse alone. And I never made allowances for Cersei's crimes. Robert doesn't deserve them, either, at least for me.


message 18: by Ben (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ben Washington This is the brilliance of Martin's writing. Fully developed characters. Who do you root for? They all have glaring flaws.

For me, I love the warrior but hated the king. I'd enjoy a novel that covers Robert's Rebellion.


Scott Kinkade Hannah wrote: "Yeah. But this shouldn't have anything to do with whether Cersei was a woman, hence the henpecking. It could have easily been a man who convinced him,and he could still have done it."

Good point. Let me change that to say he was too willing to hurt his best friend's family merely to get someone off his back.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Hum... I never said that her wickedness is due to Robert's abuse alone. And I never made allowances for Cersei's crimes. Robert doesn't deserve them, either, at least for me."

And I didn't say you did. However, I am right when I say that you've used Robert's abuse several times as a justification for Cersei's character, not to mention how her father treated her. In fact, you're most recent statement: "I merely understand where her actions and "wickedness" come from and I don't hate her" is in a similar vein.

But when it comes to Robert, you've given him no quarter whatsoever. If you're judging them by the same standard, then you must be aware that his "wickedness" also comes from somewhere.


Laura Herzlos Matthew wrote: "Laura wrote: "Hum... I never said that her wickedness is due to Robert's abuse alone. And I never made allowances for Cersei's crimes. Robert doesn't deserve them, either, at least for me."

And I ..."


Ok, for the last time. I NEVER JUSTIFIED anything Cersei did. I see a complex woman and UNDERSTAND where that comes from, which is NOT the same as justifying, absolving, making allowances or any of the other stuff you claim I do. You keep saying I do and I'm tired of repeating myself because you either don't read what I write or you make your own interpretation. This is getting boring for me, to get to these threads and find "well, you say that..." next to quite the opposite to what I say. If my English is not clear enough, I cannot help it; I don't practice it much.


Divyanshu Not sure. Mixed feelings, yes. Robert was a poor king, but from the records, perhaps better than Mad King. A great warrior, but a drinking brute, too. And on the matter of hitting Cersei, I think a person can lose control when he has to live with Cersei, not justifying domestic violence, talking about a soldier's psychology.


message 23: by Matthew (last edited Aug 04, 2014 01:05AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Laura wrote: "Hum... I never said that her wickedness is due to Robert's abuse alone. And I never made allowances for Cersei's crimes. Robert doesn't deserve them, either, at least ..."

No Laura, it's because there's a difference between what you say you are saying and what I'm reading. However, its not your English, its the nature of these damn internet forums. They do not allow for much nuance or understanding because it's just the typed message without any nuance. It's also me, I'm bullheaded and don't seem to know when to stop debating!

But I agree, we should move on to other things. Or at least, beyond this roadblock. And in truth, I do agree that Cersei has some degree of sympathy established for her. I think it makes the reading of her character complex, if not her herself. So I guess can agree to partially agree then ;)


Angel Castillo Laura wrote: ""It is not his fault, not really"

What is it that wasn't his fault? Sending assassins after children because they were "dragonspawn"? "

I meant Cersei cheating on him, it is not Roberts fault. I'm reading the series again, and I just read when Tyrion comes back from his little trip to the Vale, he says actually liked Robert.


Matthew Williams Angel wrote: "Laura wrote: ""It is not his fault, not really"

What is it that wasn't his fault? Sending assassins after children because they were "dragonspawn"? "
I meant Cersei cheating on him, it is not Robe..."


Was he speaking about Robert Baratheon (aka. drunken whoremonger King), or Robert Arryn (aka. breastfeeding at the age of six and possibly epileptic)?


Scott Kinkade That kid's another Joffrey waiting to happen.


Laura Herzlos Scott wrote: "That kid's another Joffrey waiting to happen."

Not anymore... Not without Lysa, in any case. I'm not even sure he'll survive his last dose of sweetsleep.


message 28: by Matthew (last edited Aug 04, 2014 11:46PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Scott wrote: "That kid's another Joffrey waiting to happen."

Not anymore... Not without Lysa, in any case. I'm not even sure he'll survive his last dose of sweetsleep."


Oh crap, that's right. Petyr is all about taking over the Vale and positioning Sansa for a shot at power too, mainly so he can get under her frock. I'm betting his plans don't include the young Robert for long. He needs him now, but when he doesn't... I'm guessing someone else will be falling out the Moon Door.


message 29: by Laura (last edited Aug 05, 2014 02:49AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Laura Herzlos I see now the confusion in Angel's post. Different Roberts. I don't think Robert Baratheon and Tyrion knew each other. Tyrion lived in Casterly Rock and just went to join the trip to Winterfell because he wanted to see the North. They probably met in tourneys or parties.

About Littlefinger's plans... [shudders] This is from A Feast for Crows:

(view spoiler)


Laura Herzlos David wrote: "Robert is offered as a victim of 'love lost'. (Ned's sister) Tricky territory for GRRM, or any author, if the result is the Robert that we now see."

I'm not sure that was the intention, to show that the result of lost love is becoming an abusive drunken womanizer. It's what some readers interpret to be the reason, but that doesn't mean the author meant for that to happen. To tell the truth, we don't know much about Robert's growing up years and so many other factors that contribute to make a violent man.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "David wrote: "Robert is offered as a victim of 'love lost'. (Ned's sister) Tricky territory for GRRM, or any author, if the result is the Robert that we now see."

I'm not sure that was the intenti..."


Actually, we do know about his childhood. He was squired with Ned by Jon Arryn in the Vale, the two were very close and even considered each other to be brothers. All indications said that he had a happy childhood. And he was all set to marry Lyanna, whom he loved dearly.

But then she was taken from him, he fought a war to get her back, but it was too late to save her. On his wedding night to Cersei, he got so drunk he could barely perform and then called her "Lyanna". And that was followed by years of heavy drinking, whoring, abuse and binge eating.

I'd say GRRM's intentions were pretty clear. He lost the love of his life and was forced into a life he didn't want so he numbed himself with pleasures of the flesh and became an angry, abusive lout.


Laura Herzlos I didn't say we know nothing, I said we don't know much, and we don't. The only thing we know from his childhood is that he was a squire. We don't know how he grew up before that, if his father was violent, or a drunken, or fully honorable; we don't know how his life as a squire was... etc. Just because some readers interpret that Robert was the ass that he was because he lost Lyanna, doesn't mean GRRM wanted everyone to think this. Nowhere in these books are "reasons" for a specific behavior unidimensional. So, yes, it was a factor that may have contributed, but by no means the cause.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "I didn't say we know nothing, I said we don't know much, and we don't. The only thing we know from his childhood is that he was a squire. We don't know how he grew up before that, if his father was..."

If no information is given about that period in Roberts life, then I'm guessing it wasn't relevant. But the loss of Lyanna and the disillusionment of becoming king of the Seven Kingdoms doesn't seem unidimensional to me. It sounds like a perfectly good explanation as to why he became a fat, drunken, and angry.


Laura Herzlos Matthew wrote: "If no information is given about that period in Roberts life, then I'm guessing it wasn't relevant. But the loss of Lyanna and the disillusionment..."

Well, that's not my opinion. There are several "minor" characters whose background stories we don't know or we know very little (like, say, Vargo Hoat, Maester Luwin, Jorah Mormont, etc.). We know them through the eyes of the POV characters and through their impressions and opinions of these people. We know only what the POV characters know about them and what comes to their minds when they interact with them. That doesn't mean that we know everything that's relevant to know about them.

In any case, nothing in human behavior has a single cause. Note that unidimensional doesn't mean shallow or superficial. If you say that the death of Lyanna caused Robert to behave the way he did, you are reducing his whole psyche to the grieving betrothed, when losing Lyanna was just one of the several factors that could have caused Robert's behavior.


message 35: by Matthew (last edited Aug 06, 2014 10:59AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "If no information is given about that period in Roberts life, then I'm guessing it wasn't relevant. But the loss of Lyanna and the disillusionment..."

Well, that's not my opinion. ..."


Yes, and I'm saying that this is certainly enough of an explanation, don't you think? If you're suggesting Martin intended for something more, than I imagine he would have provided it at some point. However, all indications in the story seem to point to him being unhappy because of how his life turned out.

However, I did find out a few more things about his past that might be relevant. They are that:

*His parents died in a shipwreck near Storm's End when he and Stannis were still young, making him titular Lord of Storm's End
*He was fostered (I said squired earlier, which is different) with Ned by Jon Arryn who treated them both as his own sons (since he had none) and this led to Robert thinking of Ned as his true brother rather than Stannis and Renly
*By the time of his betrothal to Lyanna, he already had a bastard daughter named Mya Stone, leading Lyanna to declare that "Robert would never keep to one bed.

So we know that he was already prone to sleeping around, and that he had duty thrust on him at a young age. So I can certainly see how becoming King would have seemed like yet another case of responsibility being thrust on him that he didn't want. But the core of it still seems to be his bitterness over losing the one he loved.

Damn, I guess you were right ;)


message 36: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos I would say that Robert was a drunken, womanizer, binge eater and wife-beater even if Lyanna lived. In my opinion, he never knew her that well to love her so deeply that he spent his life mourning after her loss. She became the idealized wife, just because she died; had she lived and i bet that he would giver her hell as he did Cersei. And i bet Lyanna was less than thrilled to be given away to him - i mean: Rhaegar´s kidnapping was blesssing in desguise, for her, if the other theories are correct.

Is it just me or did GRRM "made" his Robert in a sort of Henry VIII´s image? I keep getting that feeling....


Matthew Williams Maria wrote: "I would say that Robert was a drunken, womanizer, binge eater and wife-beater even if Lyanna lived. In my opinion, he never knew her that well to love her so deeply that he spent his life mourning..."

What reason is there to suspect that? He wasn't a drunken, abusive man before he married her, just irresponsible and lust-driven. And while Lyanna did have her doubts about his fidelity, I think it's reaching to assume he would have been the exact same person had they actually married.

For one, he wanted to join his house to Ned's since he saw him as a brother. Two, he wasn't forced to marry her against his wishes as he was Cersei. Three, he was so outraged when she was taken away by Rhaegar that he mounted a Rebellion, slew him and demanded the death of his entire family for it. Lastly, on the night of his marriage to Cersei, he called out Lyanna's name. These are hardly the actions of a man who didn't really love his betrothed.

And considering that her kidnapping (I still think they eloped) led to the Rebellion that killed so many, I'd hardly call it a blessing in disguise. It was a selfish act on behalf of Rhaegar that insulted his wife, tore the Realm apart, and resulted in a war that destroyed his family and took Lyanna's life.


message 38: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos Matthew wrote: "Maria wrote: "I would say that Robert was a drunken, womanizer, binge eater and wife-beater even if Lyanna lived. In my opinion, he never knew her that well to love her so deeply that he spent his..."

I didn´t said he didn´t loved her - just that his feelings were exacerbated by her kidnapping and subsequent death. I believe that Robert belived himself head over heels for her - what i say is, for him to sink in to what he was before he died, i think that some inclinations were already there, despite the dashing, respected and fearless young man that he was and also despite the love he had for her.

I think that Lyanna and Rhaeger eloped, too - and i called a blessing in desguise in therms of Lyanna marriying Robert; she knew he would give her grief "Robert will nover stick to one bed" kind of notion - it´s not a very good prospect, when entering a marriage, don´t you think? I mean, if all things went as they should, she would have married a man that was already a womanizer and with a bastard child - how many more would she have to endure during the marriage years? And this was prior to marriage, when he was in love for her - i wonder what he would do if he wasn´t. And with the womanized and bastards springing from all corners, don´t you think she would have said something? And that he would grow tired of the nagging? And this will lead to...pretty much where he stood, before considering killing a boar, drunken as a lord.


message 39: by Matthew (last edited Aug 06, 2014 12:40PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Maria wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Maria wrote: "I would say that Robert was a drunken, womanizer, binge eater and wife-beater even if Lyanna lived. In my opinion, he never knew her that well to love her so deeply t..."

I would agree that his love was idealized by her death. However, he was not yet betrothed to her and barely knew her when he had sired his bastard daughter, so it would be wrong to say he cheated on her when he was (presumably) in love her. So I would also agree that their relationship was something that did not have time to grow.

But at the same time, the love was certainly there, as it was the one thing that repaired Ned and Robert's relationship. Ned was incensed that Robert would condone the deaths of the Targaryen children and left King's Landing in a rage to go to Storm's End to lift the siege there. It wasn't until he returned from Dorne and told Robert about Lyanna's death that they made up, apparently over shared grief.

And I think it's wrong to assume that Robert would have become the exact same drunken lout he became as a result of how things worked out. Before he lost her, he was an impressive specimen of a man from all accounts, and Ned considered him to be honorable and even believed that he would change because of Lyanna's love (She didn't, naturally. But we'll never know that for sure).

All we do know is, he became very bitter and angry after losing her and ascending to the throne, where he was forced to marry a Lannister and enter into an alliance with their family - who he had little love for. And he spent the rest of his life taking out this anger on his own body and anyone else around him.


message 40: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos Matthew we are making assumptions based on whatever GRRM let us know about his characters.

That beying said, i will agree to say that Robert was forced to marry a Lannister, with no love in sight, after he had lost the love of his life, and was forced to rule a kingdom when nothing prepaired him for it. That made him bitter, angy and in consequence he lashed out at everyone, just because he could. But he could have gone without the wife beating - anger does not justify any of that.


message 41: by Laura (last edited Aug 06, 2014 02:28PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Laura Herzlos Matthew said: "I'm saying that this is certainly enough of an explanation, don't you think?" No, I don't. If you have any idea about how a violent and abusive behavior develops, you would know that there is never, ever, a single cause that can be considered enough; always various factors.

I can only agree that Lyanna's death may have been one of those factors. Not everyone who lost a significant other becomes an abusive husband. Not everyone who lives a loveless marriage becomes and abusive husband. There must be a combination of factors.

Oh, and the same goes for the rebellion. There is never a single cause for a war, neither Robert's rebellion nor the war of the five kings that we followed. Lyanna's "disappearance" may have triggered part of it, but it wasn't the cause.

I agree with Maria about the womanizing. Robert slept around a LOT. There's a reason why Lyanna thought he wouldn't change. She wouldn't have said that only because of one woman. With the information that we have, there's no way that we can know how Robert's marriage with Lyanna would have turned out, only what Robert thinks that it would have been, and he's clearly clueless.


message 42: by Matthew (last edited Aug 06, 2014 08:18PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Maria wrote: "Matthew we are making assumptions based on whatever GRRM let us know about his characters.

That beying said, i will agree to say that Robert was forced to marry a Lannister, with no love in sight,..."


Well we say that, but are we not imposing a modern mentality on Robert's behavior? We know that Robert slapped her in the course of AGOT when she said he should wear the dress and her the armor, and that he forced himself on her in a drunken state on more than one occasion. But Cersei was still a vindictive, terrible woman who never missed an opportunity to show it.

Also, we may all be making assumptions, but some of us are making more far-reaching ones than others. Its one thing to theorize based on text, it's quite another to assume what the author intended based on no textual evidence at all.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Matthew said: "I'm saying that this is certainly enough of an explanation, don't you think?" No, I don't. If you have any idea about how a violent and abusive behavior develops, you would know that..."

True, the Rebellion began after Aeyrs II murdered both Ned's father and his brother. But those events were set in motion as a result of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna.

But Lyanna's statement about Robert was in fact based on one incident, the bastard daughter Mya Stone. His reputation for sleeping around a lot was not established until he became king, at which point, he fathered many bastards because of his constant sleeping around. But again, that didn't happen until after Lyanna's death.

As for Robert being abusive, the only instances we have of that are the time he slapped Cersei in front of Ned and the recounting Cersei has of the times he came to bed drunk and forced himself on her. Still, its very bad, but Cersei was a horrible person to him too. Her hatred of him began the moment he uttered Lyanna's name in bed, and she was no by no means a helpless victim in that relationship.


Laura Herzlos You tend to see a single cause for everything, from wars to characters' behavior and personality traits. When I read the text, I interpret that I'm only seeing part of the main story, the part that the POV character sees or knows and I'm aware that there's something else that I can't see, but it's there. For you, it's simpler than that, as in "what you see is what you get". I disagree. That's all.


message 45: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos Matthew, i will make the assumptions based on what i read and what i could "see" beyond the text, because GRRM hints a lot of things - like Renly beying gay, is one example that pops to mind Like Laura says, there is not one single cause for anything, really - no event happens solely on the account of one reason only, athough in order to rush things over, there are triggers.

A loveless marriage was what happened to Ned too - did he resort to drunkeness and wife-beating? No. He simply was the great person and lord, sane as he ever was.
So, when i say that Robert was probably going around the same or similar path that he was, even if he had married Lyanna is because of personality. Sure, Cersei pushed his buttons like an achordeonist playing a mazurka, but still, there was no need for that: he could just ignore her and let her simper - it´s not like he was around her much, to begin with.


Laura Herzlos Maria wrote: "A loveless marriage was what happened to Ned too - did he resort to drunkeness and wife-beating? "

Highborns in general have loveless marriages. We have no indication that Jon Arryn ever beat up Lysa, for example, and I can imagine that she was rather difficult.


message 47: by Elisa Santos (new)

Elisa Santos I think that Lysa was the undercover biatch - near her husband she would have been submissive and condecending; when with Petyr she would have released her wild side.

High lords always has arranged marriages - Cat was not supposed to have married Ned, but since his brother died, she did and was very happy, indeed.

I think that Robert, despite his high chivalric ideals, in the end grew bitter because of a mix of facts: he lost the (supposed) love of his life, was forced in to marriage to a despicable woman, who despised him ever since the wedding night and took pleasure in playing him like a fiddle and last but not least rulling: he wasn´t in the least bit instructed in how to rule a kingdom, let alone 7. He got frustrated and lost interest in even attempting to rule.


message 48: by Matthew (last edited Aug 07, 2014 03:28PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "You tend to see a single cause for everything, from wars to characters' behavior and personality traits. When I read the text, I interpret that I'm only seeing part of the main story, the part that..."

That's an oversimplification to say the least. I choose to see what I'm presented and not based things on my own personal feelings. I think what's really happening here is you are choosing to believe that there's more to Robert's behavior because you don't want to think his bad behavior was inspired by Lyanna's death. You're also making vast assumptions about how he would have turned out, again, because it seems you've made up your mind about him.

I also think you are choosing to see Cersei's behavior in terms of her abuse at Robert's hands because you're sympathetic with her. You can call it a more complex appreciation of things, but it seems to me that it's nothing so complex. Like most people, you're believe what you want and you rationalize it after the fact.


Matthew Williams Maria wrote: "I think that Lysa was the undercover biatch - near her husband she would have been submissive and condecending; when with Petyr she would have released her wild side.

High lords always has arrange..."


On this, we totally agree, Maria. Robert is clearly a man who is very unhappy with his life and has said as much on more than one occasion. His constant eating, drinking, whoring and vengeful attitude is his ill-tempered and childish way of dealing with the fact that he has always been saddled with responsibility and never got what we wanted.


Laura Herzlos Ok, Matthew's habit of pinning on me words that I don't say finally got me bored. I'm done. Have fun the rest of you :)


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